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The bit about not knowing where and when to make runs off the ball was highlighted on MOTD a few weeks ago, he just needs to be shown/told how its done. Having said that, I would have thought Inter would have been pretty shit-hot when it comes their coaching. Aye, I mean, you'd imagine that a team like Inter would be able to iron out these sort of basic defficiencies in a player, especially one that came through their youth system. Then again, maybe that's why they aern't winning the Scudetto. (not even sure I'm spelling that word right) We should wait and see with Martins though. He's already proven his class IMO, just needs time to learn the game more. Looking at games these days you can really notice that defenders FEAR Martins when he starts running up towards them. Definitely a good sign I'd say.

You make some good points von Fat. To be a truly "world class" troll, you definitely have to have better all-around insanity. Charlton fans would probably buy him for 2m though.

So, as far as my experiences on the forum have told me so far, this should produce the longest thread ever Parker IS a good midfielder Given IS a world class keeper Luque IS shite and we're right to not play him Roeder IS competent Shearer WAS the best English striker ever. We ARE a club that would be very attractive for potential investors and (get ready...) We ARE the fifth or sixth most prestigeous club in England (runs for cover bluebigeek.gif)

mostly because I have a brain. Then again, it can't hurt to try. BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

Same situation can happen with strikers. Strikers aern't always in situations in which they can choose which body part they want to use to score. In this aspect, lack of versatility can be a weakness. That goes for keepers as well. But there are enough situations in which the keeper is free to play to his strenghts. Command of the box or aerial ability really isn't more than preventing shots before they happen. Again, assuming that Shay can't defend for shite... Which we keep doing for some reason despite the fact that it's not true, it doesn't matter because he can wait until the shots happen and swat them away with his reflexes. Hence, mission accomplished: he's still stopping a LOT more goals than most keepers. Oh, and just so we're even... F*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ck ShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShit

Not really, it's actually fairly straightforward. A striker's job is to SCORE goals, a keeprs job is to STOP them. If Given can't stop goals by the stuff you keep mentioning (which, by the way, you still can't prove that he's bad at.) but stops them all anyway with reflex saves, than I really don't care whether his all-around game is weak or not. (And it isn't, although it's getting tiresome mentioning this point over and over again.) Compare this to say... Henry. If Henry is scoring 20 a season with his right foot, then I don't really care even if he can't score with his left foot or with his head (although honestly I can't even recall if Henry is right-footed or not. Shame on me, but it's just an example.) It doesn't matter HOW Shay's stopping goals as long as he's stopping lots of them. The number he stops just with his reflexes is enough for me, to call him World Class. Apparently, it doesn't work that way for you. Shame.

I suppose that translates as "I don't know what to say and I can't be bothered to type another half-page essay on this bloody thread so I'll just shut up." Suits me.

Quote function doesn't work for me. Makes stuff like this bloody annoying. A. If your definition of World Class is just the two best keepers in the world, then sure, Shay's not world class. But personally, I'd call one of the best keepers in the world's most competetive leagues in the world who also happens to be an excellent preformer on the international stage "world class." But this is pointless semantics. B. Again, how in Gods name do you know he is terrible at organizing the defense? Do you have a bug on his lapel listening in to his conversations with the back line? Are you pals with Ramage or Taylor who've been telling you that Given ain't giving them the right instructions? Fact in point, you have no objective measure whatsoever of determining what portion of our defending woes lie with Shay and what portion lie with our rather severely incompetent defense line. Given(excuse the pun) the situation and considering their reputations, I'd stake my money on the latter. As would any fan who wasn't hell-bent at digging up anything to shit on our best frigging player with. C. You completely miss my base point, which is that being a spectacular shot stopper and just above average is enough to be a World Class keeper. The most obvious way a goalie is judged is "how many more goals would we concede without him?" And I believe that that number for Given, even assuming that he saves us ZERO goals with aerial ability or box control, is high enough to make him World Class. Would you say a striker is shite because he does nothing but score goals? Because basically what your saying right now is that Given is shite because all he does is stop them. D. It's a given(this is getting annoying) that your comparing the current form of both players, and I never claimed that you said "Krul in that one game>Given at any time in his career." I knew exactly what you were saying, and I find it laughable all the same. You can fondle yourself with your snide remarks all you want, but strip it all away and your just repeating the exact same points, exactly as illogical as they were a few hours ago.

Left back. We know we need one. But it's seeming increasingly likely that we won't get one with any sort of quality. Might as well dream. bluesleep.gif So if you could have any of the first choice left backs from any club outside of the top four, who would it be? Ricardo Gardner (Bolton) Matthew Taylor (Portsmouth) Lee Young-Pyo (Tottenham) Nuno Valente (Everton) Nicky Shorey (Reading) Hatem Trabelsi (Man City) Michael Gray (Blackburn) Frank Quedrue (Fulham) Gareth Barry (Aston Villa) Emanuel Pogatetz (Middlesborough) some random bloke that nobody's gonna choose (Sheffield) Leighton Baines (Wigan) Paul Konchesky (West Ham) Djimi Traore (Charlton) Chris Powell (Watford) Hint: Try to make it more interesting by not choosing Baines (Some of my "first choices" may be a bit off. Feel free to point out mistakes.)

Should be considered objective vindication of Parker from all the cynics. Not absolute evidence, but surely a step in the right direction. The man's not Gerrard people, but he's still class.

Might as well make a swoop for Mourinho while we're at it. Hear that Essien lad of theirs is pretty canny too. Think we can get him for 2m? :lol:

Sadly, I don't think the club is going to be sold any time in the near future. Oh well, I'm still in my early twenties, I can wait. Fat Fred has got to leave eventually.... Right?

The next Ashley cole if FM is to be believed. So no, I don't have any idea how good he is Could be Babayaro's cousin for all we know.

I said the same thing about Joey Barton but... Reo Coker = Parker with personality problems. Less consistent too.

So enlighten me. In what way is Given "quality" but not World Class? What keepers in your views are actually "World Class?" I understood your point that you think a world class keeper should be good in all areas, but how do you address my points that nobody can conclusively say that Given is actually bad at all the things you accuse him of being bad at. While we're at it, if you actually think that Given is quality, why say that Either your making some contradictions here or your previous post was just blatant windup/attention seeking tongue.gif Oh, and btw it's just out of the goodness of my heart that I'm not even addressing your highly "interesting" comment that Krul is better than Given.

Not really, since I don't read other message boards. Mostly I'm basing this on the opinions of the supporters of other fans I know around me. A quick google search turned up this though. http://www.blackburn.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=32691

Thompers, I've been looking for a while and I still haven't found your brain. If there's one thing supporters of other clubs recognize it's that Given is World Class. In fact, the only people I've ever seen to shite him seems to be a small overly cynical segment of our own support. Given is quite literally second to none in shot-stopping. That can't be argued. Even ignoring all other aspects of his game, he is quite possibly the best in the world in the most important part of goalkeeping. That alone should mark him as a quality keeper. On top of that, I have no idea where this drivel about his box command and aerial ability being shite are coming from. Yes, he's not as good at those as he is at shot stopping, but in all my years of watching him play I have never seen any sort of conclusive evidence to tell me that his defense of the box or aerial ability is any less than that of a decent Premiership keeper. It also bears mention that the quality of the defense is probably one of the reasons that Shay looks less dominant in the box than he should. It's a lot easier to control the box with Thuram and Cannavaro than it is with Bramble and Boumsong. The only reason he keeps getting unduly attacked in these areas is because a. His godly shot-stopping ability makes them seem bad in comparison and b. Cynics will dig hard for ANYTHING to slag off a decent player with. For me, Shay's only weakness is that his distribution is admittedly utter shite. But I can live with this, to discard him for this weakness would be like writing off Henry because he can't score headers. I'm a realist. I know we're mid table, I know a lot of our players are shite, I know that Ameobi should probably be shipped off to the Championship ASAP. But, being a realist, the one fact that I can acknowledge without a doubt is that Shay Given is World Class.

I would sooner agree with a thread titled "support Sunderland." At least I can think up one good reason or so for that one. A. Keepers don't sell for much, the financial gain would be minimal. B. Harper is very good, but Shay is a friggin superhuman. C. It's not like he's 25 and will be keeping Krul out of the first team for the next 10 years or something. He'll be gone eventually when time calls. Before then? Let's content ourselves with counting our blessings.

Never say never... Roeder and Fat Fred managed to sell Amdy Faye for 2 milion pounds blueeek.gif They obviously have some talent in this department that they're not getting enough credit for tongue.gif

As long as he's not playing... Good news. All good news.

I disagree with the assertion that thrusting forth incisive long passes is a must for any great anchorman. Just take a look at Vieira, he isn't exactly a magical long-range passer (although I'll admit his short-range ability is class,) but he makes it up with his immense movement which gives him the capability to rush into the box and score the occasional goal. Something, incidentally, that Parker has shown that he is capable of doing. (Of course, he doesn't have Vieira's physical presence, but nobody here is accusing Parker of being one of the greatest holding midfielders in the history of football.) For that matter, I honestly don't see where all this "Butt is an amazing passer" talk is coming from either. Call me shortsighted but I honestly don't remember any instances in this season where a long-range killing pass from Butt has set up a goal for us. No, he's not exactly belting everything into the stands, but I'd only rate his passing ability as distinctly average. He seems to have marginally better vision than Parker does, but whether that makes him a significantly better player is debatable at best. Yes, Parker is not a distributor by any stretch of the word. His passing technique isn't exactly world class, and he seems to suffer from tunnel vision when he picks up the ball, only noticing players directly in front or behind him. But in my view these are weaknesses that can be overcome by his inherent strengths. The key to Scott Parker is his ridiculous spirit and stamina coupled with an instinctive knack for covering and constant off the ball movement. He knows where he has to be to stifle the opposing attack and he has the physical capability to get there. I think this is the main reason why he is so often slagged off as "invisible." All his good stuff happens off camera, where he's constantly running around and getting in the way. Couple this with some above-par offensive capabilities and I say you've got a potentially cracking anchorman. I won't dispute that Parker is suffering from some bad coaching, or that his leadership credentials are questionable at this point in his career. Both of those points are certainly true. However, I do not believe that they merit all this talking in absolutes, calling him "hopeless" and "must-sell." The way I see it, he's one of the only players in our squad that can honestly say that he is one of the best in the Premiership at what he does. The question we should be asking is not how to get rid of Scott Parker, but how to make him fit into our style of football. Until this is clearly a lost cause, I strongly argue that he should not be written off.

In my FM game, Bramble moved to Fulham and went on to be the core of their defense for 10 seasons. .... 8 of those were in the Championship. Lets hope this is a case of fiction reflecting reality

Better than nothing TBH. Look at our defense line. He's a body, SIGN HIM!

Souness had Shearer and even Owen from time to time. That, and even at his worst, his playing team was still better than his injured one. Roeder isn't class, but I say he's competent. Just a lot of bad luck all around really.

I don't care how smart you think you are, if you start finding reasons to piss on Shay, then your not just making sense anymore. soapbox.gif