mrmojorisin75

I'm surprised that you can't see a difference from reporting to the Chairman of the football club and reporting to somebody who is less qualified than Keegan. I've never tried to defend Keegan until last night, until last night I was giving him a lot of the blame. What has changed is that now I know that we've all been lied to and I now know that the job Keegan was given has changed in the last 3 months. Yes, that's exactly it Mick - I have ALWAYS been aware that KK has a potentially short fuse and one day could walk again, but in this case it is perfectly clear that the job he was given HAS changed in the past few months, and this is directly Ashley's responsibility because HE brought in the set-up with Wise, Jiminez , Vetere and Llambias...because Ashley has taken a back seat, THEY have assumed more & more power for themselves and eventually KK has, RIGHTLY, had enough. I don't blame him for the situation in this case - a manager must stand or fall by his own decisions and none of us would have blamed the Board if they had fired him AFTER giving him a free rein(within reasonable budget)on transfers, and THEN it all went pear-shaped. Ashley has messed-up BIG-TIME, as he has been prone to do over the past few months - he and the Board should go, and a takeover is the only way this can be resolved to most fans' satisfaction ; even if they get over the current crisis, a bad taste will remain in many people's mouths and a fair number will never go back. I am personally disgusted that after all the relative progress of the past 15 years the club has once again shot itself in the foot and let down the fans..I would not blame anyone for saying they had had enough. you both echo my feelings on this - the situation changed obviously very significantly from keegans side we know what the change was, it's obvious, but the real question is why did the club change from giving him final say to taking everything out of his hands? breakdowns in relationships are always 2 sided and i think a lot of people are forgetting that - one thing that strikes home with me is that the club are telling anyone who'll listen about KK's targets being unrealistic...personally i see this as the crux of the whole matter and the reason for the breakdown, as patently neither side was willing to give

this is like somebodys nightmare!! the shirt and the face advertising it

Not many fans are complaining about the quality of the players that Wise has brought in. And although you comment on his inexperience, he's actually part of quite an experienced recruitment team, with Jiminiez and Vitere. fucking hell can anyone tell me where i read something that clearly defines wise's role in events over the last week? and in the transfer team he works under? only thing i've seen so far is from wise when he took the job saying his remit was to boost the youth teams... i just want to know how wise has become the target? have either the lma or KK come out and said it was him? or is it only the papers we're now allowed to believe? That's a good point. Wise was part of a team, and it may be that he's being singled out as a convenient target. It sounds like the system is you have a coaching team, headed by Keegan, and a recruitment team, headed by Wise. Inevitably there's a cross-over between the roles, because the Manager has to be happy with the players that are being brought in. So both parties have to give their consent before a player is brought in. Neither is going to get their own way all the time. Keegan is claiming that a player or players were brought in without his consent. My problem is that I can't think of who that might be, because he seemed happy with the ones who were recruited before deadline day, he actually met Xisco before he signed and welcomed him to the club, and Fernandez was a loan signing who scarcely seems a resigning issue. If by 'I didn't want these players', he's actually meaning, 'I'd have preferred other players', he's making a rather misleading statement. That is why I am personally more angry with Ashley and Llambias. The recruitment team was working well, and for the first few signings at least, seemed to be working to KK's satisfaction. There were always going to be times when both parties didn't agree, and at those times, the chairman/owner should have been working hard to find a compromise. From the sounds of it though with Ashley out of the country leaving Llambias in charge, Llambias didn't bother to make any compromises, and just sent a letter to KK detailing all the small priont in KK's contract, essentially telling him to fuck off. I still believe that Mort would have found the compromise. yeah mort is missed now huh? seemed to know what he was doing, ostensibly anyway one thing the statement from the club makes clear, by the way, is the financial restraints the transfer people were operating under which suggests they've actually done a fairly good job imo You have to consider what the various people were actually doing on the final day. Wise was in Leeds, negotiating the £1.5m signings of three Leeds U17s. Jimenez was negotiating the transfers of Xisco, Gonzalez, and Schweinsteiger amongst others. Vetere had probably finished his work, but was probably around the place in case people needed his say on something. Llambias was at his desk, rubberstamping our dealings. What is clear was that Jimenez and Wise seem to be getting on with their day to day jobs of bringing the players to SJP. I believe that they were both doing what they thought was best for the club. If KK was unhappy about something he would have had to go to Llambias to ask for it. We all remember that he left last time because of a faceless, non-footballing individual in a suit. I believe history has repeated itself. james what's the story with Schweinsteiger? people have referred to it but i never heard the ins and outs? he knocked us back someone said, so were we supposed to have agreed a fee? if so anyone know what it was?

where is this coming from? wise was mates with ashley i presume before he bought the club? and what about jiminez/veterre? and llamblias? are they all "mates" or do ashley think they have something to offer in the business world? chris mort was a trusted advisor and did a fucking good job imo... look at it the other way, should ashley just appoint people he knows nothing whatsoever about to run his multi-million pound business? He should be looking to employ people with a proven record of success in the roles they are being employed. Chris Mort did do a very good job. Pity it was only temporary and he was allowed to leave. I am interested to see what Jimenez has on his CV that proves he is a proven Player Recruitment Executive. If this can be shown to me I shall apologise and accept that I am wrong. ain't saying you're wrong rob, just asking - does anyone know how matey ashley is with all of the appointments? from what i remember weren't some of them recommends from kelmsley, who is his mate? they might all be his bestest pals for all i know but as i've said it appears to me the recruitment team, now that we know their budgetary constraints, have a done a fucking sterling job really so i don't get the mates thing being a negative there, if it's even true I know mate and I would agree. Looking at the signings etc, they do appear to have done a decent job. Their communications skills are obviously woeful and if not improved upon are just going to cause problems in the future. It all just comes across a bit cliquey (sp) though with Keegan the only non-member of their little gang. Going for Zola, an ex team mate of Wise, would just appear to be them adding to their clique. PR specialist coming in might do them wonders mind...but then again everyone was quite happy that the papers knew nothing about the club this summer, can't have it both ways i guess

good point, thought it was only ashleys mate getting the jobs? maybe they met on facebook or summat

know fuck all about him but his turkey team play the right way if what they're saying about him being crackers is true i'm all for it and all!!! hope he's thick skinned 'cause it'll take some winning the fans over

I hardly think we've got the most secure of futures now, do you? We lost a manager. I hardly think that jeopardizes the future of the club. We'll get a new manager and move on. Yeah, into the Championship... fucking hell man, the next guy might be brilliant Sadly that will only happen by pure luck. No one of any proven talent is going to come here. Can hope though even if he's not brilliant there's no reason for people to be saying we're headed down man...

where is this coming from? wise was mates with ashley i presume before he bought the club? and what about jiminez/veterre? and llamblias? are they all "mates" or do ashley think they have something to offer in the business world? chris mort was a trusted advisor and did a fucking good job imo... look at it the other way, should ashley just appoint people he knows nothing whatsoever about to run his multi-million pound business? He should be looking to employ people with a proven record of success in the roles they are being employed. Chris Mort did do a very good job. Pity it was only temporary and he was allowed to leave. I am interested to see what Jimenez has on his CV that proves he is a proven Player Recruitment Executive. If this can be shown to me I shall apologise and accept that I am wrong. ain't saying you're wrong rob, just asking - does anyone know how matey ashley is with all of the appointments? from what i remember weren't some of them recommends from kelmsley, who is his mate? they might all be his bestest pals for all i know but as i've said it appears to me the recruitment team, now that we know their budgetary constraints, have a done a fucking sterling job really so i don't get the mates thing being a negative there, if it's even true

I hardly think we've got the most secure of futures now, do you? We lost a manager. I hardly think that jeopardizes the future of the club. We'll get a new manager and move on. Yeah, into the Championship... fucking hell man, the next guy might be brilliant

aye totally, someone's gonna do summat fucking stupid - if they can't find him they'll probably brick the windows or something if we lose a home game as for your first sentence it's why i'll be astounded if he doesn't sell up, and quick after the hull game In some respects I will be really disappointed if he goes. Sky kept showing clips of him at WHL last season celebrating a goal and he looked genuinely happy and wrapped up in it all. Gave me real cause for optimism. I must have been very naive this is what bothers me a bit rob - overnight he's gone from happy-go-lucky owner having a laugh at the match to cynical overlord hellbent on destroying the club he's presumably finding his feet in football, and i get that we can't really afford for him to do that, but where the hate is coming from is beyond me especially as a lot of it is from people who were more than happy with him all summer and prior to that very strange turn of events

ala Frankie Boyle: "My dad'll shag yer dad....and yer dad'll enjoy it!" Love Frankie Boyle, effing hilarious, but I think he tries too hard to be controversial sometimes. Anyway, that's a topic for another forum. So Lien, what's your take on this affair from an outsider's perspective? Do you think there is any way back for Ashley after the events of this week? Also, looks like we may be in competition for the Indian billionaire.. Do fans/you want him at your club? I don't know the fine details but from what I do know, this whole debacle comes down to the general structure, and the fact that the landscape is changing. In British football particularly, the manager is seen as an emotionally iconic figure, he calls the shots, he does this, he does that, he's boss. Sadly though, I'd say Ferguson is one of the few of those type that remain. Like it or not this continental organisational hierarchy seems to be becoming increasingly dominant in contemporary football. There's no doubt it can work, but it's a case of adapting to change. In my personal opinion, I prefer the "manager is boss" approach. I think there is a way back for Ashley. He needs to do something about it bloody quickly though. Communication needs to improve (I've said that a fair few times summer with regards to Everton), and he needs to be open. More importantly, he should be putting everything else on hold (including getting rat-arsed in the Big Apple), to get this new manager in. Someone who obviously is used to this set up. Rijkaard, someone who is used to big expectations, would be a good choice, if acquirable. This Ambani character seems an interesting proposition. The last week or so has been a sad week for football, for me at least. A lack of trust has dominated, and secondly it's becoming a rich man's world, as it were. As much as we all want ethics, we all want a nice guy who understands the club to be in charge of it, but really, it has to be about the money. Bill Kenwright at our club is what I'm talking about (despite the negative publicity he's got). Fact is, he's a so-called nice guy who loves the club desperately, and wants the best, but has openly admitted a billionare is needed. "We don't want a millionaire, we need a billionaire", to quote him. I'd want Anil Ambani at my club personally, as long as they have no say in the footballing side of it. I don't want money to dominate but is there another way of keeping up with the speed at which clubs are moving nowadays? interesting post. there's a couple of problems with getting in a big name manager like Rijkaard. first is that we've shown we're not willing to spend, despite the fact that our turnover is greatly increased and premiership clubs are spending more than ever, we've gone the opposite way. no manager will be crawling on their knees to work at a club with a minimal budget, or, from what weve seen so far, at a club where they must break even. the second is how will the manager be treated? if someone with as much sway as KK is overruled and treated like shit, anyone else can expect similar. will they fancy being sued for £2m on resigning from the club? or being told they can't even discuss transfers in public? it makes me think the club will deliberately appoint someone the fans cannot identify with or pinpoint as a charismatic leader, if only to avoid this sort of conflagration occuring the future. even top continental managers expect to be their own man, that's why Benitez came to england "I asked for a lamp and they bought me a sofa" or words to that effect. it is quite an interesting post from lien, and he's right in many ways about the changing landscape, be it right or wrong a way back for ashley? i say yes IF he appoints a big name manager now and makes a commitment (again) to back him financially and then follow through on it, but that means giving him until next year to back it up in many ways ashley might have created a situation similar to that which shepherd ended up in - decent managers not wanting the job because of the way they've seen their colleagues treated

aye totally, someone's gonna do summat fucking stupid - if they can't find him they'll probably brick the windows or something if we lose a home game as for your first sentence it's why i'll be astounded if he doesn't sell up, and quick after the hull game

where is this coming from? wise was mates with ashley i presume before he bought the club? and what about jiminez/veterre? and llamblias? are they all "mates" or do ashley think they have something to offer in the business world? chris mort was a trusted advisor and did a fucking good job imo... look at it the other way, should ashley just appoint people he knows nothing whatsoever about to run his multi-million pound business?

if this board is indicating anything right now it's that people who previously came across as thoughtful and sensible can lose it big time your average toon fan on the street will be no different if the ownership thing drags on, and a wise crony or wise himself is appointed manager, one thing is sure as shit - some fucking idiot will do something stupid after being whipped up in the media frenzy

With the structure that has been put in place which the club are now claiming has been the case since Keegan was hired, what has happened with Keegan was totally inevitable sooner or later to anyone with even the most vague knowledge of the man. With what we are being told now, how can you say that it was a good appointment except from a financial point of view for Ashley (getting supporters to buy advance STs on the back of his appointment)? At best it was an incompetent appointment for the system to work, at worst a cynical one. no chance then, that as it was his first ever managerial appointment that he thought he might be able to get it all to work then? ashley i mean UV as always the forums split again into two camps - why couldn't it be that keegan was appointed with the best of intentions and things just didn't work out? to he was an incompetent appointment amazes me seeing as he virtually saved us from relegation, to read it as cynical says more about your preconceptions of the man to me

why? it tells me there were financial restraints to the summer spending; if KK was told there was then i disagree with you, i he wasn't told then i agree but we don't know do we?

A view supported by the fact that in January we were bidding for Woodgate, and subsequently bidding for Modric who are both established stars (in fact one is named on the alleged wish-list in the News of the World article) and then we're suddenly to believe that the entire budget was £12m. They can't even lie well. no idea what point you're trying to make there really? the money was there? wasn't there? they lied about the bids? can't make head nor tail of it

Not many fans are complaining about the quality of the players that Wise has brought in. And although you comment on his inexperience, he's actually part of quite an experienced recruitment team, with Jiminiez and Vitere. fucking hell can anyone tell me where i read something that clearly defines wise's role in events over the last week? and in the transfer team he works under? only thing i've seen so far is from wise when he took the job saying his remit was to boost the youth teams... i just want to know how wise has become the target? have either the lma or KK come out and said it was him? or is it only the papers we're now allowed to believe? That's a good point. Wise was part of a team, and it may be that he's being singled out as a convenient target. It sounds like the system is you have a coaching team, headed by Keegan, and a recruitment team, headed by Wise. Inevitably there's a cross-over between the roles, because the Manager has to be happy with the players that are being brought in. So both parties have to give their consent before a player is brought in. Neither is going to get their own way all the time. Keegan is claiming that a player or players were brought in without his consent. My problem is that I can't think of who that might be, because he seemed happy with the ones who were recruited before deadline day, he actually met Xisco before he signed and welcomed him to the club, and Fernandez was a loan signing who scarcely seems a resigning issue. If by 'I didn't want these players', he's actually meaning, 'I'd have preferred other players', he's making a rather misleading statement. That is why I am personally more angry with Ashley and Llambias. The recruitment team was working well, and for the first few signings at least, seemed to be working to KK's satisfaction. There were always going to be times when both parties didn't agree, and at those times, the chairman/owner should have been working hard to find a compromise. From the sounds of it though with Ashley out of the country leaving Llambias in charge, Llambias didn't bother to make any compromises, and just sent a letter to KK detailing all the small priont in KK's contract, essentially telling him to fuck off. I still believe that Mort would have found the compromise. yeah mort is missed now huh? seemed to know what he was doing, ostensibly anyway one thing the statement from the club makes clear, by the way, is the financial restraints the transfer people were operating under which suggests they've actually done a fairly good job imo

not sure what his age has to do with it? there are young scouts out there, successful ones, who can spot a good player - indeed KK did the same didn't he when he was manager first time in his late 30's/early 40's ajax seem to have no problem incorporating young ex-players into their networks ah but i'm forgetting again, it's dennis wise "throw the dwarf down the well"

Not many fans are complaining about the quality of the players that Wise has brought in. And although you comment on his inexperience, he's actually part of quite an experienced recruitment team, with Jiminiez and Vitere. fucking hell can anyone tell me where i read something that clearly defines wise's role in events over the last week? and in the transfer team he works under? only thing i've seen so far is from wise when he took the job saying his remit was to boost the youth teams... i just want to know how wise has become the target? have either the lma or KK come out and said it was him? or is it only the papers we're now allowed to believe? That's a good point. Wise was part of a team, and it may be that he's being singled out as a convenient target. It sounds like the system is you have a coaching team, headed by Keegan, and a recruitment team, headed by Wise. Inevitably there's a cross-over between the roles, because the Manager has to be happy with the players that are being brought in. So both parties have to give their consent before a player is brought in. Neither is going to get their own way all the time. Keegan is claiming that a player or players were brought in without his consent. My problem is that I can't think of who that might be, because he seemed happy with the ones who were recruited before deadline day, he actually met Xisco before he signed and welcomed him to the club, and Fernandez was a loan signing who scarcely seems a resigning issue. If by 'I didn't want these players', he's actually meaning, 'I'd have preferred other players', he's making a rather misleading statement. exactly, there are some significant questions need answering by both sides if you ask me but it's far easier to post comments like "throw the dwarf down the well" (as funny as that was) people seem to have the impression wise is sitting there like a cockney guy ritchie villian doing anything and everything he could to undermine KK when the reality probably is that as part of his job he had a remit (or the transfer team did) that clashed with KK's so he/they fought their position based on that and have come out on top 'cause they knew that's what the paymaster wanted KK wanted what we wanted but maybe that wasn't in his job description

well i'm operating with my head here hindu and have done all summer when i was criticising the lack of transfer activity and was told to shut up 'cause ahsleys people knew what they were doing maybe i've started to believe what i was told? anyway that aside yes it does seem rather a contradiction in terms, but i'll pose you a question; is it not possible KK did give the go ahead for all the signings we made on the understand ing he'd also be getting some other players he targetted? now i realise it's semantics but if that was the case and the club just didn't bother to get his targets 'cause they felt they were unrealistic then he's still not been lied to has he? the alleged player sales isn't so easy to explain away though, but i ask again why does everyone assume it's WISE? this is all i'm asking personally i think there will have been a shift from when KK was brought in to the point we're now, i.e. the targets the club and the manager had (maybe this was thrashed out after that chelsea "crisis meeting" were too far apart so the club persued their own rather than his, KK realised this at the very end when some of us saw it coming back in may and he's kicked off and ultimately walked because if it

presume he's on about an italian? makes sense given all the spaniards and argentinians we've just signed

Not many fans are complaining about the quality of the players that Wise has brought in. And although you comment on his inexperience, he's actually part of quite an experienced recruitment team, with Jiminiez and Vitere. fucking hell can anyone tell me where i read something that clearly defines wise's role in events over the last week? and in the transfer team he works under? only thing i've seen so far is from wise when he took the job saying his remit was to boost the youth teams... i just want to know how wise has become the target? have either the lma or KK come out and said it was him? or is it only the papers we're now allowed to believe?

confidence in ashley to do what, exactly? carry on as he has since taking the club over, i.e. do what he considers the right thing? then i have a lot of confidence in him to do that yeah to do what we want as fans? not a lot time will tell who is right - remember this is the person who brought KK back from out of nowhere in the first place, why do people now think he couldn't make an equally good appointment again?

what THE FUCK is that supposed to mean?