bealios

the only family in the world ........ You couldn't make it up if you tried. Any stick will do. i'm embarrased for you, any defence will do Not defending anything, I'm embarrassed for you lot given the current state of the club since the change of ownership was made, because at the end of the day, this and other comments he has made, and SJH too, are all totally and completely irrelevant to what happens on a football pitch and how the club is run by its owners. It's not a case of 'if you dislike Shepherd then you must like Ashley'. People can criticise him all they want, it doesn't mean they think highly of Ashley in the slightest, even if it's a point on which they base a particular defence of Ashley. Given how much longer Shepherd had control at the club it's no surprise that people look back at his time with a lot more fondness than they have the year and a half or so of Ashley's time. They've both messed up. I wouldn't call playing in the Champions League, capacity crowds, top quality international footballers, and 2 FA Cup finals messing up. No, and nor would I. Under his tenure we did a lot right. However towards the end of his time in particular he was doing a pretty poor job of it. Recruiting the wrong managers, backing the wrong managers, and backing them with money that put us heavily in debt. in the 2nd last season with Shepherd as chairman, we finished 7th and consequently played in the UEFA Cup. A position matched only twice in over 30 years prior to the Halls and Shepherd, and considered to be massively successful. A "poor job" ? Leeds had similar league finishes to NUFC, got the semi finals of the CL and built a fairly decent side. Would you therefore consider Ridsdale's time a success? There are obvious similarities. I don't think Shepherd deserves half the stick he gets on here and elsewhere, but your seemingly blind defence of him is sometimes amazing. Both gambled at getting success, and did so in a manner which put the future of the club at risk. When it didn't happen, they gambled some more. It MIGHT have worked, and Shepherd MIGHT have got lucky under Robson and delivered a piece of silverware, but it didn't, and with all high risk strategies when it goes wrong it can have devastating affects. The club without someone prepared to fund it out of their own pocket would have hit administration. When the credit dries up, where does the cash come from? The future income was securitised, the expenses were fixed and difficult to shift. Shepherd himself knew this, hence the comments about paying "Rolls Royce" wages. Shepherd is a fan, he gambled, he got close, but failed. The price of his gamble was leaving a club which at the moment is not self sufficient. This is an unquestionable fact. Firstly, Shepherd didn't own the club, he only had less than 30% of the shares, so its extremely unlikely he ran the club, made major decisions, and told the Halls later. Secondly, not a single Leeds supporter didn't enjoy the run to the Champions League semi finals. I would rather have a club that aims for the top and doesn't make it than a club who never tries. We now have an owner who isn't going to attempt it, so do you want to spend the next 20 years as a yo-yo club going absolutely nowhere like the mackems have done for the last 20 years, and ourselves in our current predicament, or do you want to see the club at least have a go ? Its your choice by the way, but if you prefer the 2nd option, I simply don't agree. Technically the board run the company, the shareholder's don't. The board of directors made the decisions, and Shepherd as chief executive would have had most sway in those decisions. I'm not disagreeing that the Leeds fans enjoyed the ride, as did the NUFC fans. But if the Leeds fans were told that this ride would threaten the existence of the club, and lead to them being out in the wilderness for the forseeable future, they might have traded that Champions League semi and top 4 finish for a sustainable top flight club. Not a personal dig at you here, but the current disagreements between supporters might be to do with too many polarised views, and your last post is an example. You suggest the only alternative to massive expenditure without regard to the risks of it not producing anything is to become a yo yo club going nowhere. There is a middle ground. It is possible to speculate and aim for the top, without putting the future of the club at risk. Those in charge have a responsibility to the fans and wider community. Since we didn't have anyone who would finance out of their own pocket, the club had to be self sufficient, and ensure that what was being spent on players, agents, fees could be financed out of club income. Instead we spent future income in the hope we would get back into the top 4, but with little regard to what would happen if we didn't. I can admit that I have thoroughly enjoyed large parts of Shepherds tenure, without his gamble we might not had had nights at the San Siro etc., but the legacy of this risk taking is still being felt now, and may get a lot worse. I believe at law the company accounts need to make reference to the viability of a company as a going concern. I'm led to believe that the independent auditors could not make that statement unless Ashley personally committed to underwrite funding of the club for the next 12 months. So putting personal opinions to one side, it seems that legally NUFC are not a viable business without Ashley. So despite our views, he personally is the reason we have a club to support next season. We might be able to move forward as a club it we just accept that neither Shepherd or Ashley are/were the devil, they just have different views on how the club should be run. Shepherd's tried, but didn't quite make it. Perhaps its time to give Ashley's method a go.

Technically the board run the company, the shareholder's don't. The board of directors made the decisions, and Shepherd as chief executive would have had most sway in those decisions. I'm not disagreeing that the Leeds fans enjoyed the ride, as did the NUFC fans. But if the Leeds fans were told that this ride would threaten the existence of the club, and lead to them being out in the wilderness for the forseeable future, they might have traded that Champions League semi and top 4 finish for a sustainable top flight club. Not a personal dig at you here, but the current disagreements between supporters might be to do with too many polarised views, and your last post is an example. You suggest the only alternative to massive expenditure without regard to the risks of it not producing anything is to become a yo yo club going nowhere. There is a middle ground. It is possible to speculate and aim for the top, without putting the future of the club at risk. Those in charge have a responsibility to the fans and wider community. Since we didn't have anyone who would finance out of their own pocket, the club had to be self sufficient, and ensure that what was being spent on players, agents, fees could be financed out of club income. Instead we spent future income in the hope we would get back into the top 4, but with little regard to what would happen if we didn't. I can admit that I have thoroughly enjoyed large parts of Shepherds tenure, without his gamble we might not had had nights at the San Siro etc., but the legacy of this risk taking is still being felt now, and may get a lot worse. I believe at law the company accounts need to make reference to the viability of a company as a going concern. I'm led to believe that the independent auditors could not make that statement unless Ashley personally committed to underwrite funding of the club for the next 12 months. So putting personal opinions to one side, it seems that legally NUFC are not a viable business without Ashley. So despite our views, he personally is the reason we have a club to support next season. We might be able to move forward as a club it we just accept that neither Shepherd or Ashley are/were the devil, they just have different views on how the club should be run. Shepherd's tried, but didn't quite make it. Perhaps its time to give Ashley's method a go.

the only family in the world ........ You couldn't make it up if you tried. Any stick will do. i'm embarrased for you, any defence will do Not defending anything, I'm embarrassed for you lot given the current state of the club since the change of ownership was made, because at the end of the day, this and other comments he has made, and SJH too, are all totally and completely irrelevant to what happens on a football pitch and how the club is run by its owners. It's not a case of 'if you dislike Shepherd then you must like Ashley'. People can criticise him all they want, it doesn't mean they think highly of Ashley in the slightest, even if it's a point on which they base a particular defence of Ashley. Given how much longer Shepherd had control at the club it's no surprise that people look back at his time with a lot more fondness than they have the year and a half or so of Ashley's time. They've both messed up. I wouldn't call playing in the Champions League, capacity crowds, top quality international footballers, and 2 FA Cup finals messing up. No, and nor would I. Under his tenure we did a lot right. However towards the end of his time in particular he was doing a pretty poor job of it. Recruiting the wrong managers, backing the wrong managers, and backing them with money that put us heavily in debt. in the 2nd last season with Shepherd as chairman, we finished 7th and consequently played in the UEFA Cup. A position matched only twice in over 30 years prior to the Halls and Shepherd, and considered to be massively successful. A "poor job" ? Leeds had similar league finishes to NUFC, got the semi finals of the CL and built a fairly decent side. Would you therefore consider Ridsdale's time a success? There are obvious similarities. I don't think Shepherd deserves half the stick he gets on here and elsewhere, but your seemingly blind defence of him is sometimes amazing. Both gambled at getting success, and did so in a manner which put the future of the club at risk. When it didn't happen, they gambled some more. It MIGHT have worked, and Shepherd MIGHT have got lucky under Robson and delivered a piece of silverware, but it didn't, and with all high risk strategies when it goes wrong it can have devastating affects. The club without someone prepared to fund it out of their own pocket would have hit administration. When the credit dries up, where does the cash come from? The future income was securitised, the expenses were fixed and difficult to shift. Shepherd himself knew this, hence the comments about paying "Rolls Royce" wages. Shepherd is a fan, he gambled, he got close, but failed. The price of his gamble was leaving a club which at the moment is not self sufficient. This is an unquestionable fact.

We are a high turnover club, one of the highest. The reason for the poor financial performance is the scandalous wages being paid to non-contributing players, with no sell on value. You can still be financially sound by paying high wages, as long as they are paid to key members of your first team squad. But you cannot have loads of players picking up £3m plus per year who are not contributing anything (or very little) to the first team. Think Viduka, Smith, Duff, Butt, Geremi, Cacapa. IMO you can still pay star players (i.e. Owen) high wages if they're contributing. Owen's goal record suggest he may not be a complete waste of money. The same goes for transfer fees. Economically it is less of a risk spending large amounts on players, if there is some sort of resale value. Modric - if we got him, even if he didn't perform then it would be put down to not suiting this league, and due to his age there would have been a number of clubs in Europe who would take him back and we would recoup the fee. However if he was a sensation the CL clubs would be offering silly money. Xisco is not as bad a purchase as you would think. Its his first season, but even if he doesn't make it next year then a Spanish club will take him back for a couple of million. Next year's accounts will quite possibly be worse, with the same high wages, lower gates and commercial revenue, and potentially a Keegan pay off. It's going to be nerve wracking, but if we do stay up then I genuinely think there is a better time ahead - losing the aforementioned players from the wage bill would be a good start, only Owen will damage the first team - otherwise I still think we are attactive enough to get players as good as or better than Viduka, Smith, Duff, Butt, Geremi, Cacapa. FFS - Martins accepted £30,000 per week when he signed. This might give some clue to the unrest with Keegan - I don't believe the crap about him wanting Henry, Beckham, Lampard etc. - but if he was willing to pay Richard Dunne £90,000 per week to get him here on a 4 year deal, we may have had another Stephen Carr on our hands.

They are going to, they said in the press that they would be saying something after the transfer window has closed. i can almost guarantee now that whatever is said will be laughed at and not believed. What has Ashley done so far to merit being taken seriously by the fans? Why do you cut Ashley so much slack? Not trying to be provocative, I'm genuinely interested. Because right now there's a marked absence of any other fucker willing to put tens of millions of their own cash into the club to keep it out of insolvency? And also its worth remembering that Ashley pretty much bought the club for £130million on a whim, who's to say that if it looks like being fun again he won't decide to spunk another £50m on it ...

Disagree with this slightly. This might be the season I have feared relegation the most since we were promoted in 1993, moreso than last season, and regardless of what happens I don't think that will change until May. So the first team may be in the worst predicament for many a year. BUT ... as a CLUB there are a lot of things in the background which have improved. I think it's generally acknowledged that for the first time perhaps ever we have a decent Academy set up do we? , and a proper youth recruitment policy. We have no bank debt and you know this for sure, if we havent why the recluctance to spend any money or even the money of the sale of milner?, which is a massive positive in the current banking market. Relegation this year would be a disaster, but if the unthinkable does happen, we are better placed to handle it than if it had happened a couple of years ago. In response: 1. Our Under 18 team are top of the league, unbeaten in 11 games. We look to be scouting worldwide, and actually signing young promising players from around the world to supplement the Academy kids. I can't remember this happening to the same extent 5 years ago, but may be wrong. 2. The club has issued many public statements saying the bank debt has been cleared. This doesn't mean there is no debt, its just that its owed to Mike Ashley. What this means is that we're immune to some extent from the "credit crunch" i.e. the ability to obtain finance to run the business at reasonable rates. 3. The Milner money was received at the end of the window. Its not a case of just spunking cash on anyone, they have to be the right players, and they need to want to come here. In the past we have had to offer massive fees and massive wages to players to move to Newcastle, and it seems that that way of running a club is gone. Now we're offering sensible wages, which hopefully means that the players we get are a little less mercenary. However if its clear that we lose a player in this window who does want to play for NUFC simply because we're quibbling over a million pounds, given what is at stake I take your point.

Disagree with this slightly. This might be the season I have feared relegation the most since we were promoted in 1993, moreso than last season, and regardless of what happens I don't think that will change until May. So the first team may be in the worst predicament for many a year. BUT ... as a CLUB there are a lot of things in the background which have improved. I think it's generally acknowledged that for the first time perhaps ever we have a decent Academy set up, and a proper youth recruitment policy. We have no bank debt, which is a massive positive in the current banking market. Relegation this year would be a disaster, but if the unthinkable does happen, we are better placed to handle it than if it had happened a couple of years ago.

Kinnear will always have a place in my heart, for coming to us when nobody wanted us - like a not so attractive lady who takes you home after you've rolled out of a club at 3am covered in beer and sick. BUT I would not marry that lady. I would leave very quickly as soon as I could. And I wouldn't leave a number.

I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt so far. As has been mentioned before I'm not sure many people on here realise what a big deal removing the bank debt was. Not just the £8m or so it was costing per year, but the fact that when the facility came to be renewed, it would need to be renewed in the current banking market - pretty fucking difficult without paying sky high interest rates. Not exaggarating, it could have killed the club - not necessarily administration, but certainly a fire sale of players. Behind the scenes the Academy has been improved, and we are finally starting to see a proper youth recruitment policy. The long term prospects of the club seems to be in good hands. Ironically isn't this the area Dennis Wise is officially in charge of? BUT There needs to be a balance struck between behind the scenes club survival and long term prospects, and the current first team performance, and this is were it has recently gone wrong. We're crying out for full backs, we will go down if we don't sign any in this window in my opinion. And I hope talk of giving Kinnear an extended contract is bullshit. As this window progresses I'm starting to lose a bit of faith. If Ashley can give JFK a chance to fight of relegation with a few players in this window, and then appoints a coach in the summer who is used to and can work under the continental regime then I will recover a bit of faith in the fact that the club is being run properly.

40 points, assuming we have a good home run towards the end. I'm more worried now than I was at any point last season. Especially with Kinnear comments that he might cancel his quest for full backs on loan and just spunk all the cash on another central midfielder. Great.

Get in - Nugent goal, Spuds losing 1 - 0

Hmmmm, offering a contract without knowing for certain which league we are in next year? Sounds a bit bollocks to me. How can they offer a lucrative contract if the possibility of Championship football is on the horizon? I imagine it is something that has been said to (a) placate Joe, and (b) make a statement to the players that Kinnear may actually be here long term, so they had better not slack off. Might be to avoid the situation where players stop playing for a manager who is leaving at the end of the season. Hopefully.

A right back and a left back. Simple as. I've haven't checked the stats, but the games (or halves) I recall seeing where we have been dreadful have been where we have not had two proper full backs playing in the correct positions. Stoke second half being an example, or any game where Charlie N'Zogbia has played at left back. You cannot overestimate the importance of these positions. Without full backs with proper abilities and positioning sense it throws the whole defensive unit out. It also affects the left and right midfielder as they're not sure what they should be doing. This then focuses play down the middle, or leaves the long ball to the front man. Some teams can get away with this - but where we have (a) a slow uncreative central midfield duo, and (b) no big holding man up front, this is completely pointless. Get some decent full back/cover then watch us rise up the league. After that, someone in CM. Why haven't we gone for Jimmy Bullard- class creative player with great attitutude, puts in good performances with the non-glamorous clubs.

Almost agree with the sentiment, but I think his performances he kept us up last season, and we should at least give thanks for that.

A calmer version of my rant. I think Houlier or Deschamps would be perfect for the job - you would like to think both have an extensive network of European contacts, and are names that young players will identify with and want to play for - like Keegan was the first time around. I'm a huge fan of Keegan, and think the key reason why we as a club can sit mid-table in the most competitive league in the world and still think the world is ending, is because of the magic and expectation his efforts created first time around. However not appointing either of the two names mentioned above (I believe both were tentatively interested) and opting for Keegan was an emotional decision, and has led to the current mess.

If Carling made football clubs..... In seriousness I'm sure that is what we would all want, even more than a zillionairre owner, but that does take time and patience. Whose to say Allardyce wasn't planning along those lines behind the scenes, but had to balance that with the short term reality of getting results so tried to do it the way that had worked at Bolton in the short term?

KNEEJERK!!!! We played well first half, had more chances overall, and fell to a goal against the run of play. If Owen hadn't had an off day then we would be looking forward to Millwall. Shit happens. This thread is a perfect illustration of ONE of the current problems this club has. The general feel is to change everything because the club is in a bit of a state right now. But nobody has mentioned the one thing that has been constant since Keegan left the first time (as manager) - a large section of our fans with massive expectations. And before anyone says that we would be happy for a couple of season of mid-table consolidation, then start to look at Europe, that's complete bollocks. We sacked Allardyce when we were bloody 11th! We had those two "you don't know what you're doing" muppets gurning for the cameras. What type of message does that send to prospective players? We walked out on SBR because he finished 5th. 5th!!!! Why do players opt for clubs like Portsmouth, Spurs, Villa etc. instead of us? So we get what's left, unless we get lucky and unearth some new unheard of talent - which until the start of this season didn't really happen. So we sign Colocinni, Guitterez, Bassong, Guthrie, all looking like decent players and save for Colocinni at very little cost, and what happens? The fans call for the team that did those deals to be sacked!!! We are a club of contradiction. Previous regimes are criticised for changing managers during a season, the argument being that no manager worth anything is going to be in a position to change clubs mid-season. Quite right, a properly run club should privately make the decision during the year, and then work behind the scenes to make sure the right man is in a position to come in on June 1st. However some on here are saying that Kinnear should be replaced now. With who. Jose fucking Mourinho? Souness may have been a complete cock end, but his quote about there being about 30,000 NUFC supporters and 20,000 customers is spot on. We all sit next to those idiots at the match who want players to fail so they can have their moan at someone. So a realistic answer to the original question: 1. Keep Kinnear to the end of the season. Fans stick behind the team, and STOP BOOING YOUR OWN FUCKING PLAYERS DURING THE GAME! Hope to fucking god we don't create an atmosphere of fear at home games, sure sign of a team going down. 2. Those fans who say they are finished with the club, or who want us to go down FUCK OFF AND DON'T COME BACK. I know there are exceptions, but I expect many of these are post 1992 fans. I say this because things have been a hell of a lot worse before then. 3. In the current climate Ashley is going nowhere. His £20m net cash spend per annum sounds good to me in the short/medium term. Its more than 90% of the clubs in the league get, and we have the advantage of generating more income due to supporter base, and lack of interest payments (no debt remember). 4. Board work behind the scenes (starting from now, not May) and get a half decent realistic manager - Houlier, Deschamps etc. 5. We start preparing now for the next window - make sure on 1 July we hit the ground running with player acquisitions, having asked the prospective manager before his appointment to provide a list of targets. 6. Clear out as much high earning dead wood as possible - Butt, Smith, Viduka. Sorry for the rant, but if the manager, players, board, personell, physio, tea lady, programme sellers all need to take the blame for the current predicament, then I though I would balance the argument out by raising the possibility that as fans we may be less than perfect.

Regarding the closed shop argument, if this was a risk then I'm sure the fact that FIFA/UEFA would like it applied across all of Europe would negate this. I think the argument that it would ruin the league is just scaremongering by those who would seek to lose out. The cap would be pitched at an appropriate level annually adjusted so that successful sides could pay top rates for star players. However, what it would stop would be the policy of clubs like Chelsea and Manchester United buying effectively almost 3 separate teams which could compete against the rest of the league. There have been examples in the past where players have turned down first team opportunities at decent Premier League clubs to go and sit in the reserves at Chelsea/Man Utd. If the wages available to non-first team regulars was effectively limited buy the fact that the first team ate up most of the cap, then I'm sure that the likes of Steve Sidwell, Ben Haim, Carlos Tevez and even Theo Walcott in the early years at Arsenal would have thought twice about going to sit on the bench at the "Big Four". End result - they go to the rest of the league and it becomes more competitive. Eu regulations promote free movement of workers around the EU. Effectively at the moment many players don't have this as only English clubs can pay what has become the going rate. A salary cap would actually prmote the goals of EU legislation.

Would we? I've seen first hand what its done to Chelsea. No atmosphere at games, long term fans being forced out and replaced by tourists and corporate seats, going to the match expecting a 4 - 0 win every week and by definition most home matches being a big let down? Knowing that any trophy you do get will be devalued because not only do you get stick off other fans, you know in your heart that you "cheated"? What would honestly give you more satisfaction - a Champions League win financed by a multi multi billionairre owner with ridiculous signings such as Kaka for £100m and £250,000 a week, or scraping a League Cup or god forbid FA Cup win with the current squad? I agree that football has been ruined by the influx of foreign owners. I've said for ages the answer is a total salary cap for each club's registered first team squad of say 35 players. I don't even think its contrary to any EU regulations.

How has Ashley pissed off the only half decent players we have left at the club? Does anyone think Owen is leaving because of something Mike Ashley has said or done, or is it because he feels his career has gone backwards after signing for NUFC (including the two years under Shepherd)? Given may leave, but again that is a result of the 10 years of being generally shite. Its not as if Owen and Given (or N'Zogbia) were happy with life before Ashley turned up, and then all of a sudden they wanted out.

Same. It was already my favourite away match to go to. You could just go to Blyth at home in the FA Cup 3rd round - one of Big Sams first few games in charge!!!

I'm not sure what all the conspiracy theories are about, all of this makes perfect sense. Any buyer looking at the club now would need to factor in the risk of relegation. In simple terms, if the club was worth £100m less if relegated at the end of the season, and there is a 40% risk of that happening, a discount of £40m would be applied to any offer. In real terms, buyers are more prudent, and the discount to value would likely be a lot more. I also think relegation would have a larger impact than £100m on the club - think Leeds. So any offer now will be well below £200m - no bidder would ever make an offer which didn't factor in the risk of relegation given NUFC's current state. However, if you wait until the end of the season, and NUFC survive, very little discount will be applied, and Ashley would most likely get close to the asking price. If they go down, the full discount to price will be applied and Ashley takes a big hit, and would most likely keep the club and gamble on promotion the following season. So I think Ashley is gambling on JFK keeping the club up so he doesn't make a huge loss on NUFC, which he is entitled to do.

Personally I thought Shearer had always avoided the job as he knew he was on a hiding to nothing. With expectations so high, he wouldn't have a chance of fulfilling those. Now however, I think the general mood is that we have hit rock bottom. Unlike last season, I think we could genuinely get relegated this year, and what better time for a manager to take over, when a team with better players than about half the league is underperforming. It will only take a half decent manager to get us to about 12th, and this season most Newcastle fans will be overjoyed with that. I'd rather take control with those set of expectations, rather than in the summer when everyone will expect you to finish top 6.

If anybody doesn't know, ESPN Classic is showing loads of old games on Sky (Channel 442) - today's game was Newcastle Chelsea 1994. What a beautiful feeling watching that game. Second season in the Premier League and so full of hope . The stands are half complete, which has a weird feel about it watching it. Chelsea's scorers include Gavin Peacock, and a penalty was given to us by Steve Clarke, both with toon connections. Cole scored probably his best goal for us. This was only about 2 weeks after we were labelled the entertainers. Fantastic football. And it was my 17th birthday, last one before I left the north east and moved to Manc land. The other thing I noticed from the game was the crowd, right behind the team from the start. Chants every couple of minutes. The ony player who got a little bit of stick was Mike Hooper, and of course Dennis Wise ...

Agree with all of the positive comments, problem is, as soon as he has an off game everyone will be on his back again. Most other players in the team would be excused that, but Shola, Duff and Nicky Butt (and very soon Taylor) will attract criticism from the crowd as soon as they have a few bad touches. Whilst he is at the cub, trying to win a new contract, and with no better options, everyone should support him, regardless of your view on his natural ability.