Frazzle

Too right. But it's hardly less understandable that punching someone without provoacation when the play is stopped. I was just talking generally really, not comparing to Barton's. Although Coloccini's wasn't any more provoked than Barton's was it? Both lost their heads when we were struggling in both games.

It just shows the world that your opponent got the better of you. Elmander wins the battle and Coloccini lashes out to get his own back, it's stupid.

I hate that we are always thinking that way.. It was also to early for Shola Ameobi until a couple of years ago. We should give him the odd game here and there when he is fit.. If you are good enough the age doesnt matter. He's not good enough yet, that's the point. That Shola point makes absolutely no sense either, no one used to say he wasn't ready a couple of years ago, they said he was s****. If Ranger is getting game time I can't see how Vuckic shouldn't get the odd ten minutes here and there. Vuckic was better than a Ryan Taylor, Routledge and Smith at least against Arsenal and those players are on the bench and around the first team. We should've given Vuckic more game time last season when we were cruising, we were beating teams by 3, 4 and 5 and didn't give any youngsters a chance. Now when we are thin on the ground none of the youngsters have any experience and so Hughton seems nervous to stick them in the team. Villa at the moment must be playing with about 6 players under 20, I don't see why Vuckic couldn't have been given 5-10 mins against Villa (6-0 up) or Sunderland (5-0 up). Vuckic was injured all last season man. There's no room/point in playing players for 10 minutes here and there in matches who need to be learning. Vuckic ideally would be out on loan, but our thin squad dictates that he needs to stay. He wasn't injured 'all' season, and how is there no point in playing players for 10 minutes here and there who 'need to be learning'? He will be learning when he's playing, that's the point. The best way to improve is through playing games, Carroll is one of the best examples of this. OK, so Vuckic was injured for the majority of the season, and then when he came back he was playing 10 minutes here and there. 10 minutes do nothing but give you a feel for it. He needs to go out on loan and play full games, we have no time for sentiment/player development this season in the first time. It's all or nothing. And if he's not going out on loan to get full games...we may as well give him some gametime in the league. I don't see how we can't aid his development by bringing him on for 10-15 minutes in games where there is no pressure on him. You seem to think we can only send him out on loan or throw him in the deep end straight away. You seem to be an expert on what playing 10 mins every so often will do to a player so I guess I'll just leave it there.

I hate that we are always thinking that way.. It was also to early for Shola Ameobi until a couple of years ago. We should give him the odd game here and there when he is fit.. If you are good enough the age doesnt matter. He's not good enough yet, that's the point. That Shola point makes absolutely no sense either, no one used to say he wasn't ready a couple of years ago, they said he was s****. If Ranger is getting game time I can't see how Vuckic shouldn't get the odd ten minutes here and there. Vuckic was better than a Ryan Taylor, Routledge and Smith at least against Arsenal and those players are on the bench and around the first team. We should've given Vuckic more game time last season when we were cruising, we were beating teams by 3, 4 and 5 and didn't give any youngsters a chance. Now when we are thin on the ground none of the youngsters have any experience and so Hughton seems nervous to stick them in the team. Villa at the moment must be playing with about 6 players under 20, I don't see why Vuckic couldn't have been given 5-10 mins against Villa (6-0 up) or Sunderland (5-0 up). Vuckic was injured all last season man. There's no room/point in playing players for 10 minutes here and there in matches who need to be learning. Vuckic ideally would be out on loan, but our thin squad dictates that he needs to stay. He wasn't injured 'all' season, and how is there no point in playing players for 10 minutes here and there who 'need to be learning'? He will be learning when he's playing, that's the point. The best way to improve is through playing games, Carroll is one of the best examples of this.

I hate that we are always thinking that way.. It was also to early for Shola Ameobi until a couple of years ago. We should give him the odd game here and there when he is fit.. If you are good enough the age doesnt matter. He's not good enough yet, that's the point. That Shola point makes absolutely no sense either, no one used to say he wasn't ready a couple of years ago, they said he was s****. If Ranger is getting game time I can't see how Vuckic shouldn't get the odd ten minutes here and there. Vuckic was better than a Ryan Taylor, Routledge and Smith at least against Arsenal and those players are on the bench and around the first team. We should've given Vuckic more game time last season when we were cruising, we were beating teams by 3, 4 and 5 and didn't give any youngsters a chance. Now when we are thin on the ground none of the youngsters have any experience and so Hughton seems nervous to stick them in the team. Villa at the moment must be playing with about 6 players under 20, I don't see why Vuckic couldn't have been given 5-10 mins against Villa (6-0 up) or Sunderland (5-0 up).

At this stage is our rebuilding I personally think schizophrenic is good! If after few more transfer windows no progress has been made then some of the criticism would be warranted but at this stage I think Hughton is doing better than most expected. Giving managers such a short time to prove themselves sets a very dangerous precedent. Does Hughton's replacement go after a few months as well if we aren't top 8? Likewise with his replacement?

Forgot about Bale, if he's included the initial fee would probably have to be knocked down a bit. £4m + VDV + Bale

Getting boring now Go somewhere else then. Rather stay as there are some good posters.

£9m + VDV

One of Hughton's qualities is that he doesn't over-react. Win or lose, the slate is wiped clean and he gets the players focused on the next match. Since he's been in charge, the team has always been able to shake off the odd dip in form. Our two most important and least replacable players (ie Barton and Tiote) were out yesterday. His biggest weakness is that he doesn't react at all. Often in the dressing room and training ground? Or should he do all his work through the media? Matches too. His inability to see something is wrong & attempt to change it is baffling. Can't we have a bit more faith in the man and his methods? He's not exactly done badly so far. In just over a year, he's taken a train wreck of a club to mid-table in the Premiership. With only a modest outlay, performances and morale have improved beyond recognition. But he doesn't kick off in post match interviews...

Getting boring now

I think we have to wait for the next game before deciding whether Hughton's reaction was appropriate.

Yup, Woodgate was fantastic for us.

Did MoTD say something about Carroll's celebration?

Hughton was meant to go after Sunderland according to someone on here... We won that 5-1 and then beat Arsenal..

Another misrepresentation of what I said. I was referring to a selection of results, not all of them. A few of our results are very misleading. Being objective about it, and to give an example; you know teams like Blackburn will climb and stay safe through picking up points at home against lower-tier clubs. They've done it for years. Which results are miseading? The 5-1 v Sunderland or 5 v 1 Bolton? The 2-1 against Blackpool or 1-0 v Arsenal? The 1-0 v Everton or 2-1 v Stoke? Keep going and you'll eventually see an imbalance. 6-0 v Villa or 2-1 v Blackburn? The fact that we are top half shows the results so far are in our favour. Like I said a while ago Hughton has set the bar too high. I bet if we were 16th without the massive wins and having beaten Blackpool and Stoke everyone would be happy. Then again, some people...

And I forgot the 6-0 Villa score.

Another misrepresentation of what I said. I was referring to a selection of results, not all of them. A few of our results are very misleading. Being objective about it, and to give an example; you know teams like Blackburn will climb and stay safe through picking up points at home against lower-tier clubs. They've done it for years. Which results are miseading? The 5-1 v Sunderland or 5 v 1 Bolton? The 2-1 against Blackpool or 1-0 v Arsenal? The 1-0 v Everton or 2-1 v Stoke?

Surely it doesn't work like that though, we got promoted and signed few players then lost our most talented player by injury. Being fucking good and fucking bad is probably better than we should expect at this stage.

Exactly, was going to post something similar before. I bet Wolves and West Ham would fucking kill to be in our position.

Plenty of mackems said that about Bruce after their 5-1... Some perspective from the doom mongers on here as well...you remember when Bobby's team got smashed 4-1 away to Coventry? He had a better squad to work with then as well. Rome wasn't built in a day and the way to the top isn't always an upward trajectory. Moyes has had bad runs and slips with Everton but still managed to get them into the CL.

I don't normally listen to the Guardian podcast but last time I did one of the blokes said a WHam player told him Grant does nothing and just tell the team to go out and play, his success at Chelsea was just down to copying previous managers. He's showing at West Ham this seems to be the case. I can remember plenty on here saying they would have him as our manager as well.

Isn't someone's sig a quote from you saying 17th would be a success?

And we were 15th after the Man City game...