St. Maximin

Nah that’s unrealistic. No way would they start as early as 10am.

Football commentator, Robot Wars commentator and French translator, but he cannot translate Arabic. Proof Jonathan Pearce has his limits.

I think you’ve summed him up well there. That doesn’t mean people criticising him think he’s ‘shit/boring/clueless’. They might just think he’s similar to how you’ve described him. In general I find when managers get criticism people react too much like their critics think the manager is terrible and wants him sacked, when really they are often commenting on their limitations as you might with a player you still like. I’ve said before I like Southgate and by no means want him sacked soon, but I do question some of his moves. As above the with Mount I always find a funny one - great player without doubt, but when we are blessed with attacking talent not sure what he was offering us on left-wing in the Euros final.

Personally I love the bloke, but I agree with some of the criticism he got from that Euros final. I think a lot of people were just frustrated and there were some knee-jerk reactions after the final, but at the same time as we might with players, it’s very reasonable to criticise anyone when they’re doing things wrong, even if their standards are normally high. Same with Rafa for example also - did terrific here but he made some questionable decisions irrespective of his record, but criticising them shouldn’t mean you want the guy sacked. Not that people are saying that here, but I know some people who react like that. Still think we should have won with that home advantage, but it’s still anyone’s game on the day. Onwards and upwards. Can’t knock that record and we’ve gone from semis to finalists, so naturally we’ll win the next World Cup anyway.

While I don’t think Howe should be asked these questions, they’re a natural consequence of the takeover. What I’m more annoyed by are the reactions on social media criticising him for being part of the ‘sportswashing project’. I’m not sure what he is supposed to say? It’s not only not something he is meant to talk about, but he may not even be trained to handle the questions well so it’s best to say nothing. Speaking of sportswashing, I might just be ignorant but I still don’t know what clear examples there are of it - in this case or previously. To me seems like one of those coined phrases that gets raised every time a country with poor human rights records invests invests in major sporting events/teams, without evidence of how it’s worked and why it’s so bad. I’m not saying it isn’t a thing, but certainly for us I don’t see the concerns - the clearest examples so far are a minority of whoppers on Twitter acting as Saudi apologists. Surely any sportswashing intentions would have gone deeper than that? That said I cannot help feel slightly uncomfortable about the takeover though. That’s out of guilt about enjoying the support of a nation that has done terrible things, but I don’t see them widely becoming heroes to the west through this takeover while maintaining their abuses, so I don’t really see sportswashing as the issue. If they really wanted to improve their reputation they could have just not killed 81 people the other day, as it’s not like none of us would hear about it…

They clearly just need to dust their axes down, roll their sleeves up and go again.

On those lines aye. I don’t really know much about the PIF power structure. I know MBS is the chair so that makes things a bit more awkward… but not sure how much day to day involvement he has in PIF, let alone us! It’s a state-owned entity that employs civil servants to invest in different industries to help develop and diversify the Saudi economy. Sure they’re not all nasty blokes! Saying that if Bin Salman directly bought us and called all the shots, I’d certainly feel less comfortable. But that’s not essentially the case here right…?

The fans who feel obliged to now defend Saudi Arabia are just idiots and not really people we need to focus on. Every club has idiots in their fan base and luckily I don’t think the actions of these are cause for major ‘sportswashing’ concerns. They’re a small minority and aren’t bringing about major change in KSA’s reputation here. To do that KSA will simultaneously need to keep changing its laws over time too. Fwiw I still feel a bit uncomfortable about this and leaving aside human rights comparisons with the other countries, our connection to a state is even closer than Man City’s and Chelsea’s. However, I also don’t feel I have to apologise for the Saudis as a conflicted fan, to criticise their human rights record whenever we score a goal or publicly concern myself with our Saudi apologist fans etc. I also don’t feel we have to hate everything about them - we talk about how ‘evil’ our owners are but they’re an investment fund that accumulated wealth through oil. I don’t get the impression that people who order the execution of people without fair trial are also involved in the day to day running of our club. Maybe that’s me being sportswashed then, but I can’t lie and say I don’t enjoy their involvement in our club.

Kind of do yeah. I work in a bank and had to read about a few big name oligarchs last year to escalate any key info the bank didn’t know. I understood he would be able to do that based in the OFAC sanctions I read about as that’s how other sanctioned oligarchs still had loose ties to the bank’s clients. Not sure if these rules are much stricter though.

Good points, articulated much better than I could! I guess it’s a complex issue but to me the main benefit of improving a reputation is economic, so I’m a bit surprised it’s seen as a human rights issue. The human rights issues are sadly there regardless - I almost think groups like AI talk about ‘sportswashing’ to make their concerns seem more relevant. The abuses are the problem here, not the attempt to change a reputation. I don’t think it’s logical to assume these states are making a calculated attempt to hide their atrocities while pleasing westerners, or that it would really have the desired effect if so. Saying that, the more angry I feel about Russia due to its current widely broadcasted atrocities, the less comfortable I feel about Saudi Arabia. Not due to sportswashing; just simply being associated with my team…

I will say sportswashing exists, but it’s not the major human rights issue people make it out to be. I just see it used as a negative term but without the evidence to show it is such a terrible thing - almost like it doesn’t need it. The concern people have is the laundering of a reputation through sports investment, but I’m yet to see this working the way people suggest. Surely as long as human rights abuses are being committed, the positive attitudes towards a country won’t eradicate the coverage of the abuses - not on a particular grand scale anyway. I doubt the Russia World Cup, while no doubt a great experience for fans, has massively changed the perception of the country - at least not to the point it took an unprovoked war to make people realise how immoral it is. Where sportswashing does work as intended is it helps generate tourism and investment et al through becoming more relevant to the daily lives of people abroad. That’s not a bad thing overall though? In less positive terms there’s the issue I know we’ve discussed about Newcastle fans defending KSA, having Saudi flags on Twitter profiles and wearing tea towels etc. Not ideal of course, but to me it’s not a major issue in the grand scheme of things when they’re a small minority of fans that make up a small minority of football fans in the UK, let alone the world!

Each to their own but I’m not really a fan of putting managers in this ‘PFM’. Not like they’re all the same. Tactically the likes of Pardew and Bruce aren’t fit to be spoken about in the same sentence as Pulis, Allardyce, Dyche etc. Their football may be ugly to watch but there is a plan and the tactics have been effective, even if outdated. In fact maybe I wouldn’t put Dyche in with them anyway. I think the ugly football and being associated with an unfashionable club with a high proportion of Brexit voters doesn’t help his cause, but he’s an intelligent and witty man I feel and you can’t knock the job he’s done there.

Based on the league table he didn’t fail miserably to be fair. 13th and 12th were decent returns on paper given our squad. The start of this season was a different matter of course. Obviously we know it goes far deeper than just looking at the league table. However, if you’re not prepared to research, it’s pretty reasonable to look at the table and then wonder where all the fuss is coming from. Saying that Willock massively dug us out of a hole and we were getting all the usual patronising rubbish from the pundits even when it looked like we were heading for relegation a year ago.

Yeah good point. I remember Sunderland fans slated him, but I did notice the team declined a lot since he left so it seemed more respectable. However, the run of form looks pretty familiar and they did have some decent players around then as you say. I think Hull worked out reasonably well though, whatever it was he got right. Villa sounded shocking though - real elephant in the room last year that Smith was getting so much praise from pundits for how they picked up after his appointment, when Bruce was the reason. Shame we just happened to have unrealistic expectations though.

I think it was only really Villa when things really turned pear-shaped for him as a manager. He was clearly never a tactician, but whether it was due to luck or ‘good man management’, he did well in the Championship and had some reasonable top flight years too. His win record may be terrible, but you can’t leave the standard of the teams out of that. I think the game has progressed in recent years while he hasn’t, but I don’t want to be too kind to him - I also think he got to the point where he couldn’t be bothered to take the jobs more seriously and was just happy to pick up a nice salary followed by a nice payoff. No manager who is really dedicated to his job would give the players so many days off training and apparently have sessions where his coaching amounted to saying “let’s play”.

What is the issue with ‘sportswashing’ anyway? The cynicism people have over the takeover isn’t matched by reality. If it’s a real thing it’s not hiding human rights abuses and making Saudi Arabia falsely appear to be a progressive state. If it changes opinions it’s clearly at a pretty small scale. We make up a very small minority of football fans in England alone the world, so I really doubt the opinions of such a small group really mean that much to them or has the power to creative a grossly false misrepresentation of what the country is like. They are diversifying their economy and investing in sport like the other gulf states do to create economic development in the long run. The human rights abuses are sadly still there and are a problem irrespective of the takeover. I don’t feel overly comfortable with the takeover, but despite a small minority of fans now defending KSA and dancing around with tea towels on their hands, it’s not really the ‘sportswashing’ that concerns me.

Most West Brom fans didn’t follow us too closely so not surprised if they’re at least willing to give him a chance after solid finishes for us. My housemate is a Baggie though who follows Newcastle a bit too and he’s firmly in the view Bruce is terrible.

I don’t really think it’s right to say he’s been Bruce’d. He only started scoring and assisting under him and was very good at it around 2020. I really like him but he needs to be in the right position to have impact, which doesn’t seem to be out wide. His work rate is terrific and he’s quick, but not brilliant technically or reliable enough in front of goal imo.

Pressure alleviated by yesterday’s win but I still wouldn’t be comfortable with a draw. We only have 7 home games left and I don’t see our final two months being a nice run-in, so we need plenty in the next month. I think we’ll pull through, but will be fighting relegation nearly all the way.

His Prem goal record wasn’t bad the first two seasons. Can’t really expect him to be prolific in those teams. He was terrible last year, but Fulham fans I know say Parker’s tactics were a lot to blame there. In the right tactics where he’s the main man he gets goals (Serbia also shows this). He was also young when with us, whereas he’s clearly matured since and doesn’t appear to be the red card risk. I still want to see him back as felt he has unfinished business and I have a perhaps irrational fondness for him, but guess I’d take Mbappe or Haaland over him.

Good shout. I think he looks even more like a mini Shaqiri, which is quite impressive really

Yeah but that’s the silly thing. Before that he was just crap but inoffensive. He made one stupid decision in the heat of the moment (not the first or last person to in this team) and all of a sudden people have used that as an excuse to give him loads of abuse. Yeah we dropped points, but that wouldn’t have mattered if the team in general hadn’t been crap for most of the season.

The abuse this guy has got recently is bloody ridiculous. He is crap and was rightly de-registered. He is only still here thanks to Ashley though and has always seemed like a good pro. No need to read into small things and look to find issues. That Norwich defending was brainless too but some fans reacted like it was something far more insulting to us, when it was simply rash and impulsive as he had very little time to think. No need trying to justify the abuse.

Bruce has a decent promotion record so it makes sense. We might have been able to see through it but 13th and 12th with us looks good too if you miss out the start of this season, so not that shocking really.

Good points mate and while I agree the takeover has caused a change in attitude from certain fans, this did seem like a cheap dig at us given he specifically made a reference to Newcastle rather than just saying Saudi Arabia. If he did the latter I doubt it would have had quite the reaction. Newcastle fans have also become used to media attacks relating to the takeover, so understandable why they’re more sensitive. The main issue though I’m concerned about is he’s using a very recent and disturbing news story to make such a joke. My scepticism over the sportswashing concerns isn’t so much that it doesn’t exist, but the extent and impacts of it all. There are indeed a small minority of Newcastle fans that will now defend the Saudi state to irrational lengths or jump around with tea towels on their head, but ultimately they are a small minority of fans of a football club whose fans only make a small minority of football fans in England let alone the world. Conversely it’s possibly made other fans more resentful of KSA and the media coverage certainly hasn’t helped them hide the human rights abuses. Sportswashing is supposed to be something calculated and immoral the way it’s talked about and has become a political issue, but I’m not seeing it that way. In the grand scheme of things these things we’ve seen shouldn’t be having dangerous impacts on a large scale. ‘Sportswashing’ to me is a term used to legitimise saying a state isn’t fit enough to invest in sport. Of course I’m happy to be proven wrong in all this. If a country does go some way to improve their reputation that shouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing, if their abuses don’t get hidden through it and perhaps it even encourages change. I also think it’s pretty reasonable for people to visit places and come back with very positive views on it (e.g. Russia World Cup) while also acknowledging major moral issues.