TheBrownBottle

A footballing heavyweight or a side ranked higher would be a good start. Euro 2020 is the tournament with the strongest case for a job well done - though like Euro 1996, where England put out Spain and beat Holland, home advantage counts. And I’m only talking knockout football - I didn’t mention Argentina in 2002 because of that. England don’t beat sides that they aren’t favourite to beat in the KO stages - and that includes Euro 2020, where losses to Germany or Denmark would have been an upset

Nope. Which means the England have performed roughly at par - which is usual. Here’s the list from tournaments I have any memory of: WC 86 - lost to eventual winners Argentina, having won a straightforward last 16 game EURO 88 - out in group, which did contain both finalists WC 90 - out in SF, having got past two relatively equivalent teams in the L16 and QF EURO 92 - generally seen as poor performance, though were in a tough group containing the hosts, the winners, and France WC 94 - DNQ out of a tricky group containing four nations who could all well have qualified if drawn in a different group EURO 96 - lost in SF to eventual winners, having outplayed a good Dutch team (who had to win a playoff to qualify) and got pretty lucky vs Spain in QF (dodgy ref cost Spain) WC 98 - lost to Argentina in L16 EURO 00 - out in group -poor performance given the fact that they led vs Portugal and Romania WC 02 - lost to eventual winners Brazil in QF after easy win vs Denmark L16 Euro 04 - lost to host Portugal in QF WC 06 lost to Portugal in QF following easy L16 fixture EURO 08 - DNQ, generally poor though QF included an excellent Croatian team WC 10 - lost to Germany L16 Euro 12 - lost in QF to Italy WC 14 - genuinely poor, out in group EURO 16 - out in L16 to Iceland So to me, generally speaking par for England is losing to the first good side they play - the true exceptions being WC14 and EURO 16 (and DNQ in Euro 08) The only difference in the last four years has been the point at which England has faced a decent side. In the period listed, WCs have been: QF, SF, DNQ, L16, QF, QF, L16, GS, SF, QF. QF is par; we’ve reached in six of the nine WCs in which I’ve got any kind of memory. WC98 and WC 10 we faced a superpower in the L16, which made passage difficult. Only 94 and 14 broke the pattern with genuine failure. WC 18 we were fortunate enough to get Sweden in the QF - we didn’t face a good side until the SF. This isn’t to say Southgate has done a terrible job - he hasn’t - but the narrative that he’s worked wonders just doesn’t compute for me.

A ‘Wally’ is an inept person - it’s a bit like saying someone is a fool, but it’s much softer

Agree 100%. Adam P is a bit of a wally but ultimately harmless. Those twats have something of the night about them

It’s not worth getting wound up about in any way, shape or form. I’ve always found self-appointed ‘voices of the supporters’ weird full stop. They’re no different to the whoppers you get on Big Brother etc, only through the more limited lens of supporting a football club. Let them get on with it would be my take. There’s little which could be of less importance than this stuff - this is all about people deluding themselves into thinking millionaires and billionaires give the smallest of shites about anything they have to say.

Yeah, agreed. It always struck me that Lloris would go the same way that the first went. I feel more sorry for the bloke than anything else, but unlike the first I was convinced he’d miss / have it saved.

Kane has to take that second penalty for me. But he was obviously caught in two minds - he was going the same way as the first but knew Lloris would anticipate it so added more power, which was a fatal mistake. Hindsight is 50/50 unless you’re talking about something patently obvious, as this was. I think England performed exactly in this tournament as they did the previous two - beat the poor and mediocre, lost vs the first decent side they played. They went out to a very good side, and didn’t embarrass themselves - but that’s no different to pretty much every England tournament in my lifetime. 2010 and 2016 are the only two I can think of where you could potentially say they were ‘embarrassed’ - and even then, that was a lot more to do with condescension towards a very good Iceland team who’d been getting good results vs good sides over the previous two years.

Honestly, that’s fair enough - I just disagree, though not vehemently or owt. English football has a long history of overrating its GKs and CBs I think - though I do think Ferdinand was a superb defender

I’d have been tempted to play him LB - but I thought Walker was possibly England’s MOTM

He was hilariously bad mind. There’s always at least one of those ref performances at a WC. It made it entertaining to me, but if I was Dutch or Argentinian I’d have been apoplectic

Ferdinand is better than any of England’s current centre halves, Cole was a world class LB, and Scholes was a superb midfielder - though of course badly used by England. But I think Foden, Bellingham etc are more technically gifted attacking mids than Gerrard or Lampard, and I’m one of those who thinks Terry’s flaws were exposed playing for England when he didn’t play in that superb Chelsea team - protected by a world class holding midfielder, defenders and GK I’m ok with anyone disagreeing on this (it’s not a ‘football hill’ I’d die on ) but it’s my honest view

Howe isn’t taking that job even if offered, neither would Potter. They’re both young, and they might take it in future. But this might be both of their chances to do something special at club level.

I’ll blow my top if that’s the team mind. They’re all out of the WC now, more than enough recovery time for the proper football. We’ve got to view this as a chance of a trophy

Easy to list the worst vs the best like We’ll need to agree to disagree on this one mate - I think this is a technically gifted group of players, and I think the likes of Lampard’s and Terry’s deficiencies were masked at club level by the standard of players they played with, as well as a superb manager in his prime knowing exactly how to maximise their strengths. The UEFA rules re ‘home’ players always means that some English players will figure in our best club sides

Aye, it’s a corking header

Lee Carsley it is then

You’re right that I would be far less amenable to those calls re NUFC. The foul on Kane was outside the area so couldn’t be brought back - so I wouldn’t be as upset about that. I’d be just as annoyed with Henderson and Walker for that first goal as anyone else

You should’ve seen Mrs BB’s reaction first time she heard Shola interviewed. Weirdly, she knew he was a Nigeria international but not where he’s from (Mrs BB isn’t a Geordie)

You’re a card Pards

No doubts there for me - but he won’t leave even if offered. Same for Potter at Chelsea. I’d be sorely tempted to see if Pochettino or Tuchel would take it

‘Hendo’ ?

Agreed - the only time France really looked flustered was the first 15 mins of the second half

Hahaha fuck me

They are - but Sterling has been out of form for some time.

I’m going to get pelters, but I thought the ref was alright tbh. There was a consistency to his approach, he tried to let the game run, and England were constantly looking for fouls and flung themselves to the deck at every opportunity.