4-3-3 is here to stay - so what now?

[Razor]

Both systems have their merits, but our best players upfront, where the business has to happen arent suited to it. Michael Owen is a proven scorer, so is Viduka, Martins has potential aswell.

 

Imo:

 

Owen wont change and we cant afford not to utilise him

 

Martins will achieve his best playing alongside someone and receiving ball from wingers

 

Viduka doesnt perform (other than solo moments of brilliance) in a 443. Look at his games for Australia, has a shocking record for someone of his quality, and on most recent occassions has been the lone striker up front, and it hasnt worked..

 

In a 442 we get more attack overall - 2 pairings of strikers between Owen/Viduka/Ameobi/Martins which can be mixed and matched. People have said versatility is great, but in a 443 we might have some players suited, but not enough to cater for injuries etc. 442 is also better to watch imo, and is a proven method. NUFC has done its best when scoring lots of goals, we have 3 great strikers, potentially a strike force that could compete with a top 4 counterpart. So let's use em.

 

443 still should be used, in situations as mentioned, and 443 is a good way to start a match sometimes to get structure (debatable)

 

But when you look at what BS has done it aint far from the mark. He is naturally going to try to use his old system, but showing the manager he is, adapted to what he saw and has played 442 for a decent stretch of time, (guessing 90/270 mins). There is a tendancy to worry he wont see the light and change, but at this stage, and from what we have seen, BS is acting accordingly.

 

Stay positive and have faith, and good things will come to NUFC 

 

But then i'm no football manager................

[ohmelads]

I think the key for this team to have success in a 4-3-3 is very simple: Get in 2 players who can play those wide front roles.  I think Zog could potentially be crafted into a player who could play in the front 3, but when I look at all our players, I think we have 2 players that will ever do really well in the frontline of a 4-3-3: Viduka and N'Zogbia.  We'd have to get another right-sided player to play top 6 football in a 4-3-3.  I do think it will start to come together though, especially once injured players are back.  I have faith in Sam, but with this group of players, we can only go so far in a 4-3-3. 

 

I agree with you on Zog, but he'll do just as good a job if not moreso hugging the line and with Milner on the other side, giving the team plenty of balance and width. And do you really think Viduka has the legs to be playing up there on his own? Barring a fine individual goal, he's been anonymous in all three games so far. Partly down to fitness, but he just doesn't look up to it. It's a very difficult role which not many strikers can do, Saha and Drogba have pace to burn, strength and loads of movement, Viduka just has strength and it's not been getting him anywhere so far.

 

I'm struggling to think who in our squad will benefit from this formation bar one or two players, maybe Emre, Duff, erm...?

[Unlucky Luque]

Martins for Anelka? Madness!

 

Madness?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS IS NEWCASTLE!!!

[James]

4231 all the way for me.

[Shak]

4231 all the way for me.

 

That's just the exact same thing really.

[Ikon]

Imo we dont have the players for 4-3-3.

 

 

 

[Guest fishman09]

gotta agree with the 4-4-2 advocates here.  i can't see how/where our attacking flair will come from with the current system.  for me a front 2 of martins and owen, with zog/milner on the wings with 2 in the middle who can pass it as well as defend the back 4 works as far as i'm concerned. any combo of a front 2 of owen/martins.....viduka/owen...viduka/martins take your pick, but for either martins and or owen to be effective and for us to pulverise teams in the final third....we need to play 4-4-2  maybe sam is simply waiting for owen to get upto full fitness, and enrique too, so that he can play a balanced, fit 4-4-2?

 

fish

[CaliMag]

I think there is a basic point missing here. Regardless if we have a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 Big Sam is going to play it narrow, tight and boring... and I am not sure this is a bad thing.

 

Even when he was playing Solano during the summer he was experimenting with him in the middle because Big Sam wants to keep the same kind of football he has been using at Bolton.

 

One of HTL's old favourite subjects (back in the SBR days) on 4-4-2 was that there was a difference between playing wide and playing wingers .. .and I think Big Sam is NEVER going to play with wingers. I don't even think we will be playing with wing backs. During the first 15 minutes of the Boro game (when we were killing them) it looked like we were playing with Zoggy as a wingback but we weren't. The most important factor of our good play in the begining of the game was Zoggy and Milner charging up and down the field like mad men (but getting back in time for cover) - after about 15 mintes of this we saw a slight decling in their mobility because they are human and could not go on like that.

 

Big Sam was reasinably happy with our overall play but as he said in his post match interview "It felt like a loss." Becasue up until the Arca equalizer that was what he wanted and expected from this game. Running it down the middle to the big lad (Viduka) who then hold sit up and either passes it out or scores himself - which only works about 1 in 20 attempts and in Big Sam's mind thsi is how it should be... because its really difficult to counter against.

 

Big Sam is looking to build Newcastle as a disciplined physical side (that unlike Bolton can pass it on the ground because of greater talent, larger budget etc) and that will be either a narrow 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3.

 

George Graham lives and his name is Sam Allardyce.

 

 

[TRon]

I don't really care what system Sam uses, but I do feel that Viduka is much more effective when the ball is played to his feet. He can hold it up really well and that allows runners to join in around him.

[buzza]

I also think that Sam wants to make us hard to beat i.e. we lose less games. This also figure well in that if we do manage to score goals, and with our attack we should, then we will win more games than lose them.

I can't see us playing a 442 with wingers as that would leave far too much space for opposing attacks, but I must say that with the players we have a line up like the following would be very appetising:

-------Given-------

Geremi---Taylor--Roz---Enrique

Milner---Barton---Butt----Zoggy

--------Owen---Martins (Viduka)

 

I personally think that we should employ this at home, we have the "extra man" that we all harp on about and the way to really get a crowd behing you is to "entertain" them and I for one prefer entertaining football. We can change back to a 4-3-3 when we go a goal up or when we play away.

 

[Guest jamesmartinsmith]

Not many more goals from Owen and Martins, playing as wingers. Shit formation.

[toptoon]

Bar the one good goal, Viduka has looked crap up top creating nothing and being totally dominated, he's WAY TOO SLOW AND UNMOBILE TO PLAY IN A 433! If Ameobi had played as poorly we'd be howling for him to be dropped. I seriously believe Ameobi would have created/scored more than Viduka so far. I believe he deserves his chance now at least. He is also the most suited striker we have in a 433. Ok if he looks crap then its time for a rethink as we need to try owen there too.

 

I'd go once everyones fit:

 

                Given

 

Geremi  Taylor  Roze  Enrique

 

        Barton  Butt    Zoggy

 

Martins                          Milner

              Owen/Shola

 

Subs: Harper, Cacapa, Smith, Emre, Owen/Shola

 

Cacapa looks very promising and could force his way in,as could the rest of the bench.

 

Viduka looks to slow and unmobile to play at the top of a 433.  Shola would seriously be better, his shooting whilst not as good as Viduka's and has been poo in the past, has improved. He would create alot more for himself and others than Viduka.

 

Owen could also prosper up top, we'd have to keep it on the floor, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[CaliMag]

Viduka is here to stay (I am certainly no fan) but the big guy up front is what Sam wants and we will stick with him until he is injured... which I expect will happen soon.

 

Viduka = Big Dunc redux. How many times have we heard "A good touch for such a big lad..." applied to both with little end result?

[Cajun]

Viduka is here to stay (I am certainly no fan) but the big guy up front is what Sam wants and we will stick with him until he is injured... which I expect will happen soon.

 

Viduka = Big Dunc redux. How many times have we heard "A good touch for such a big lad..." applied to both with little end result?

 

Little end result? Viduka scored 19 in 29 starts lasts season and got a decent amount of assists.

[Howaythelads]

We have 4 strikers, Viduka, Smith, Owen and Martins. Ameobi is a donkey, always has been and always will be. His level isn't anywhere near where we want to be and the sooner he's moved on, the better.

[Wullie]

Viduka is here to stay (I am certainly no fan) but the big guy up front is what Sam wants and we will stick with him until he is injured... which I expect will happen soon.

 

Viduka = Big Dunc redux. How many times have we heard "A good touch for such a big lad..." applied to both with little end result?

 

  Viduka has one of the best touches in the Premiership, something he showed with his goal on Sunday.

[CaliMag]

Admittedly, I don't like Viduka but surely you are overrating his ability. "One of the best touches in the Premiership" - an exagerration.

 

Gejon - I am unconvinced his stats last year were anything other than a fluke. Blind prejudice on my behalf is possible but right now I'll put my tin hat on and say he's Kevin Phillips circa 1999... laugh away.

[Guest MagicNumber9]

Where have all these Viduka fans appeared from? Beggining of last season I remember a large handful slating him as he was "fat", "usless" etc, and wouldnt touch him with a bargepole!!

 

Double standards or what

[Dave]

Where have all these Viduka fans appeared from? Beggining of last season I remember a large handful slating him as he was "fat", "usless" etc, and wouldnt touch him with a bargepole!!

 

Double standards or what

 

Same people rated him then as now tbh.

[Wullie]

Admittedly, I don't like Viduka but surely you are overrating his ability. "One of the best touches in the Premiership" - an exagerration.

 

Gejon - I am unconvinced his stats last year were anything other than a fluke. Blind prejudice on my behalf is possible but right now I'll put my tin hat on and say he's Kevin Phillips circa 1999... laugh away.

 

Dear Christ. Have you ever seen Mark Viduka play? That wasn't an exaggeration in the slightest btw, his touch is superb and he's absolutely fuck all like Phillips as a player.

[CaliMag]

Admittedly, I don't like Viduka but surely you are overrating his ability. "One of the best touches in the Premiership" - an exagerration.

 

Gejon - I am unconvinced his stats last year were anything other than a fluke. Blind prejudice on my behalf is possible but right now I'll put my tin hat on and say he's Kevin Phillips circa 1999... laugh away.

 

Dear Christ. Have you ever seen Mark Viduka play? That wasn't an exaggeration in the slightest btw, his touch is superb and he's absolutely f*** all like Phillips as a player.

I'm not saying he plays like Phillips, but then you know that.

[Wullie]

Admittedly, I don't like Viduka but surely you are overrating his ability. "One of the best touches in the Premiership" - an exagerration.

 

Gejon - I am unconvinced his stats last year were anything other than a fluke. Blind prejudice on my behalf is possible but right now I'll put my tin hat on and say he's Kevin Phillips circa 1999... laugh away.

 

Dear Christ. Have you ever seen Mark Viduka play? That wasn't an exaggeration in the slightest btw, his touch is superb and he's absolutely f*** all like Phillips as a player.

I'm not saying he plays like Phillips, but then you know that.

 

How is he Kevin Phillips then? Best thing about Viduka is his link up play because of his good touch. Or are you saying that he's a one season wonder goal wise, because his stats don't back that up.

[CaliMag]

Admittedly, I don't like Viduka but surely you are overrating his ability. "One of the best touches in the Premiership" - an exagerration.

 

Gejon - I am unconvinced his stats last year were anything other than a fluke. Blind prejudice on my behalf is possible but right now I'll put my tin hat on and say he's Kevin Phillips circa 1999... laugh away.

 

Dear Christ. Have you ever seen Mark Viduka play? That wasn't an exaggeration in the slightest btw, his touch is superb and he's absolutely f*** all like Phillips as a player.

I'm not saying he plays like Phillips, but then you know that.

 

How is he Kevin Phillips then? Best thing about Viduka is his link up play because of his good touch. Or are you saying that he's a one season wonder goal wise, because his stats don't back that up.

I was calling out the stats thing. It wasn't just one season, Phillips had a few good seasons playing in mediocre teams which is what Boro is.

I admitted this was a controversial view up front - I think saying he has one of the best touches in the league is equally controversial btw... but I am not going to accuse you of never watching other teams/strikers play though. I am also not going to bother putting up a list of half a dozen other strikers (in this league) that I think have a better touch, because no doubt we would be arguing over one of them who I'd rank as better or we would be arguing semantics like "one of the best" means out of the top 12 or something... and this topic would digress further. 

 

To get back on track I think Viduka will be used in every game that he is fit by Big Sam and that he will not score as many goals this season or get nearly as many assists. Loved to be proved wrong.

[Wullie]

I think you're right if he's playing in this system. He's at his best when linking up, like he's been doing with Yakubu.

[tmonkey]

Id like to see us give Owen a runout as as the central striker in this 4-3-3 system.

 

The logic behind this is that Viduka isnt playing well as a target man, most of the time hes getting beaten to the ball or ends up fouling defenders, whilst when a good cross or ball into the box is played, hes often too slow or lacks the movement to make use of it. Hes good with the ball at feet, but then so to an extent is Owen, whilst Owen's movement is far superior to that of Viduka's. Hence, if Viduka is failing to do what he's in the team to do, the loss with regards to good targetman play would be minimal if we were to switch to Owen, whilst wed be maximising our chances of converting goalscoring opportunities.

 

Maybe its not worth trying Owen in that position until Barton and Emre are back in midfield, considering how poor the current central midfield trio have been once on the ball and hence the need to use a physical targetman to compensate, but I hope its in Allardyce's thoughts, because Owen has played as a lone forward in the past for Liverpool, and considering the service the likes of Milner, NZogbia, etc, are providing (albeit inconsistently), service which should in theory increase with central midfielders who are more adept at creating chances (and who knows, maybe this system will see the revival of Duff later on in the season), Owen is our best bet of making best use of that service, whereas Viduka doesnt seem to be equipped for it.