UV Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 All i'm saying is that stats are subjective at the best of times, and even more so when talking about goals conceded by a keeper. Either could have easily had more crap shots to save than the other, yes. Well I absolutely disagree. Of all the positions on the field, and all the stats you can pick the number of saves per shot when taken over a large enough range of games is one of the least subjective stats you can use. Over time the percentage of easy saves to unstoppable shots will even out, and this stat is especially valid when you are talking about how good a shot stopper a keeper is. I don't think there was much Shay could have done about any of the goals he has conceded, he is a much better keeper than Harper FACT! FACT is this - Given rarely makes mistakes. I've come to realise that a lack of making mistakes is enough for a large proportion of people to pronounce a keeper or defender as being great. Not making mistakes is a great attribute to have, but it is not the be all and end all. FWIW the first goal on Saturday was saveable - not easily, but saveable non the less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Jerusalem Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 I thought that dropping Harper on Saturday was not the right decision before the match and thought that afterwards as well. He could have done better for the first two goals and looked shakey / rusty when the ball was passed back to him through the match. The third would have left most keepers in the world clutching for air. Of the two 'wonder saves' that he made in the game most premier league keepers would have been disappointed to get beaten from the range that Elano shot from (Harper made a couple of similar saves v West Ham if I recall correctly) and the second hit him on the shoulder when Mpenza was one on one and he stood tall - with a better finisher and the ball was either side of the keeper then he would have been picking the ball out the back of the net. I know that it's all a big what if, but her's another one for yous - if Harper had the same performance as Given had on Saturday, how many would have been on here demanding he was dropped for the next match? Don't get me wrong, Given has been a great asset to the club and is in the long run the number one at the club but no player should be guaranteed a place on the field which is the message that was sent out by the manager at the weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 All i'm saying is that stats are subjective at the best of times, and even more so when talking about goals conceded by a keeper. Either could have easily had more crap shots to save than the other, yes. Well I absolutely disagree. Of all the positions on the field, and all the stats you can pick the number of saves per shot when taken over a large enough range of games is one of the least subjective stats you can use. Over time the percentage of easy saves to unstoppable shots will even out, and this stat is especially valid when you are talking about how good a shot stopper a keeper is. In that case Harper's not played anywhere enough compared to Given to prove anything IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Having a working pair of eyes is all the proof you need to see that Given is a far superior keeper to Harper. And regarding the whole loyality thing, do you not think if Harper would have got the offer to be first choice keeper at another decent/mid table Premiership team he would have left ages ago, course he would have. I disagree, I don't see a lot between the two keepers now that Harper has had a good run of games and has had time to settle in. They both have strengths and weakness's which make them too close to call as far as I'm concerned. Harper has had poor treatment over his place going back to Given for no reason other than that Given is fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Having a working pair of eyes is all the proof you need to see that Given is a far superior keeper to Harper. And regarding the whole loyality thing, do you not think if Harper would have got the offer to be first choice keeper at another decent/mid table Premiership team he would have left ages ago, course he would have. I disagree, I don't see a lot between the two keepers now that Harper has had a good run of games and has had time to settle in. They both have strengths and weakness's which make them too close to call as far as I'm concerned. Harper has had poor treatment over his place going back to Given for no reason other than that Given is fit. do you mean "for no reason other than the manager thinks he is the better keeper" ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Having a working pair of eyes is all the proof you need to see that Given is a far superior keeper to Harper. And regarding the whole loyality thing, do you not think if Harper would have got the offer to be first choice keeper at another decent/mid table Premiership team he would have left ages ago, course he would have. I disagree, I don't see a lot between the two keepers now that Harper has had a good run of games and has had time to settle in. They both have strengths and weakness's which make them too close to call as far as I'm concerned. Harper has had poor treatment over his place going back to Given for no reason other than that Given is fit. do you mean "for no reason other than the manager thinks he is the better keeper" ? No, he means 'for no other reason than the manager doesn't want any aggro from Given until he has a replacement(Jaaskelainen?) in place' and although in one way he's acting practically, in another he's weakened his own position with the squad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSamsBarmyArmy Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Having a working pair of eyes is all the proof you need to see that Given is a far superior keeper to Harper. And regarding the whole loyality thing, do you not think if Harper would have got the offer to be first choice keeper at another decent/mid table Premiership team he would have left ages ago, course he would have. I disagree, I don't see a lot between the two keepers now that Harper has had a good run of games and has had time to settle in. They both have strengths and weakness's which make them too close to call as far as I'm concerned. Harper has had poor treatment over his place going back to Given for no reason other than that Given is fit. do you mean "for no reason other than the manager thinks he is the better keeper" ? No, he means 'for no other reason than the manager doesn't want any aggro from Given until he has a replacement(Jaaskelainen?) in place' and although in one way he's acting practically, in another he's weakened his own position with the squad. Given is a quality keeper and is currently off form. When he's on form he is one of the best in the Premiership and the World. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UV Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Given is a quality keeper and is currently off form. When he's on form he is one of the best in the Premiership and the World. That's what Spurs fans were saying about Paul Robinson all last season... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 i wouldn't even say he's off form,not much he could do about the goals conceded, same goes for harper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 i wouldn't even say he's off form,not much he could do about the goals conceded, same goes for harper. I think the same, I just think what has happened is wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 All bull. Harper hasn't been great this season, but Given's been worse. If a keeper makes 4 great saves but concedes three, thats NOT a good performance - thats bad inconsistency. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Bollocks. No keeper in the world would have saved that Elano free kick for a start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 All i'm saying is that stats are subjective at the best of times, and even more so when talking about goals conceded by a keeper. Either could have easily had more crap shots to save than the other, yes. Well I absolutely disagree. Of all the positions on the field, and all the stats you can pick the number of saves per shot when taken over a large enough range of games is one of the least subjective stats you can use. Over time the percentage of easy saves to unstoppable shots will even out, and this stat is especially valid when you are talking about how good a shot stopper a keeper is. I don't think there was much Shay could have done about any of the goals he has conceded, he is a much better keeper than Harper FACT! FACT is this - Given rarely makes mistakes. I've come to realise that a lack of making mistakes is enough for a large proportion of people to pronounce a keeper or defender as being great. Not making mistakes is a great attribute to have, but it is not the be all and end all. FWIW the first goal on Saturday was saveable - not easily, but saveable non the less. I've believed in this for a long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Liam Liam O Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Having a working pair of eyes is all the proof you need to see that Given is a far superior keeper to Harper. And regarding the whole loyality thing, do you not think if Harper would have got the offer to be first choice keeper at another decent/mid table Premiership team he would have left ages ago, course he would have. I disagree, I don't see a lot between the two keepers now that Harper has had a good run of games and has had time to settle in. They both have strengths and weakness's which make them too close to call as far as I'm concerned. Harper has had poor treatment over his place going back to Given for no reason other than that Given is fit. Harper has been OK standing in for Given, not brilliant or world class or anything like that. I'm not suggesting people have been saying he's world class, but he has done OK. The way some people are talking him up on here is laughable IMO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Bollocks. No keeper in the world would have saved that Elano free kick for a start. Well, no keeper at Newcastle anyways.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K9 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Bollocks. No keeper in the world would have saved that Elano free kick for a start. True, and not many would have saved his shot earlier! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jamesmartinsmith Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Bollocks. No keeper in the world would have saved that Elano free kick for a start. Well, no keeper at Newcastle anyways.... I don't think that Casillas, Buffon, Kahn or Coupet could have got to that to be honest. Some strikes are untouchable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Donpipi Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Given is the same type goalkeeper like Robison - 1 great game , 10s horrible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Given is the same type goalkeeper like Robison - 1 great game , 10s horrible aye, righto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardsleymagic Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Given is the same type goalkeeper like Robison - 1 great game , 10s horrible Eh???!!!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Donpipi Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Given is the same type goalkeeper like Robison - 1 great game , 10s horrible Eh???!!!? I am not from UK!!!!!!!!!!! What thas it means that "Eh???!!!?"" ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Given is the same type goalkeeper like Robison - 1 great game , 10s horrible Eh???!!!? I am not from UK!!!!!!!!!!! What thas it means that "Eh???!!!?"" ? It means give a real example of the 1 great game and then list the 10 horrible games. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Donpipi Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I can't give you exaple right now,but I'm still sure that he is one of our weak playrs!! He play in Newcastle from 1997 and everybody still waiting his big season!! I thing that Jussi Jaaskelainen will be a good relieve!! Regards from Bulgarian fans!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I can't give you exaple right now,but I'm still sure that he is one of our weak playrs!! He play in Newcastle from 1997 and everybody still waiting his big season!! I thing that Jussi Jaaskelainen will be a good relieve!! Regards from Bulgarian fans!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Harper has been OK standing in for Given, not brilliant or world class or anything like that. I'm not suggesting people have been saying he's world class, but he has done OK. The way some people are talking him up on here is laughable IMO I don't remember seeing too many talking him up, most have just said that he's done nothing to cause him to get dropped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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