Form away from home

[Mick]

 

his players are dictating his tactics. Players always dictate the tactics. The alternative is the manager who plays them out of position and in the wrong way, they do this because they are either clueless or they don't have the type of players they want at their clubs.

 

Allardyce chose to sign the defenders that he did. And while they all seem to be good buys and he's done very well, I think he should have signed at least one more forward player, and that was before letting Solano and Dyer go.

 

 

 

You're hard work, our forwards were not given anything to work with.

 

We did have players out of position and we didn't need to do that because we have players who are capable of beating Reading, we just didn't use them from the start.

[Howaythelads]

Lads....

 

It is ironic that those waiting for the thread to move onto the subject of Shepherd are themselves dragging the thread down by their own stupid posts going on and on about Shepherd.  There are about 5 people doing this in this thread. It really does come over as school playground mentality from some.

 

You know I speak the truth whether you want to admit it or not. Take a look at yourselves, ffs.

 

[Decky]

One answer:

 

Van Der Vaart

 

[Liam Liam Liam O]

One answer:

 

Van Der Vaart

 

 

Would be good, but if he was moving on I'd be amazed if he came here

[NE5]

We've strengthened the defence like many people said we should, but our defence isn't any better.

 

Some of us correctly said what the biggest problem was a year ago.

 

Aye, imagine if Allardyce tried to play a defensive game like he did today with with Bramble, Moore, Carr and Babayaro.

 

Good post, mate.

 

Has the defensive record improved ?

 

 

 

Yes, I think it has but if you're going to send a team out with a view of being happy with a 0-0 then you're going to invite unneeded pressure on yourself.

 

Our defeats away from home have been down to poor tactics from the manager, nothing to do with whether he brought in new defenders or strikers because he brought in both in the summer.

 

I think the problem is exactly the same as it was a year ago.

 

 

 

Not having someone to hold the ball up?

 

We conceded the second with your man Alan Smith on the field so perhaps someone to hold the ball up wasn't that good today after all.

 

Would you prefer Ameobi ?

 

 

 

Where did I say that?

 

Your whole argument was that we need a striker who can hold the ball up better to stop us from conceding, you then went on about Alan Smith the other week agreeing with people who said he'd do that yet Reading scored the winner with him on the pitch.

 

So your point is wrong too.

 

 

Its not wrong. When Smith came on, we played better and were well on top when we equalised. The balance of play changed, because he was right to bring Smith on. Its a bit daft to suggest that getting your shape better means its impossible to lose 

 

I know you have a grudge against Smith, but it was the right change.

 

BTW, I don't just mean holding the ball up, I mean general possession, keeping the ball, forcing the pace of the game and using their intelligence when passing and moving.

 

 

 

We played better because we had more width, nothing to do with Smith.

 

yes, I agree that playing with more width is better too, thats what I was getting at when I was commenting on possession etc, I was only answering Baggio

 

 

 

So you agree then that our problem today was to do with bad tactics rather that signing defenders?

 

I don't have a grudge against Smith, I just recognise he doesn't score enough and doesn't offer the team enough to make up for it.

 

his players are dictating his tactics. Players always dictate the tactics. The alternative is the manager who plays them out of position and in the wrong way, they do this because they are either clueless or they don't have the type of players they want at their clubs.

 

Allardyce chose to sign the defenders that he did. And while they all seem to be good buys and he's done very well, I think he should have signed at least one more forward player, and that was before letting Solano and Dyer go.

 

 

 

How are his players dictating his tactics?

 

He's got 2 wingers and left both of them on the bench today to play a more narrow system, he's got no pace in midfield because he left N'Zogbia on the bench and chose not to replace Dyer properly, this is his fault as they were his decisions.

 

He signed 2 strikers in the summer in Smith and Viduka, how is he supposed to accommodate yet another striker on top of those two?

 

Milner ?

 

Zoggy definitely.

 

Was he negative at Bolton ?

 

I think its possibly more that he hasn't got faith in Milner, and to be honest, neither have I. Personally, I agree with you and I would stick to the team that played on Monday, but if he had better players he would play them surely, don't you think ?

 

Also Geremi, being his captain, means he has to be in the lineup, but he shouldn't be, so thats a problem of his own making. Whichever way you look at it, we have a problem with this position for starters, which we would not have had if he had replaced Solano properly.

 

 

 

 

[NE5]

Lads....

 

It is ironic that those waiting for the thread to move onto the subject of Shepherd are themselves dragging the thread down by their own stupid posts going on and on about Shepherd.  There are about 5 people doing this in this thread. It really does come over as school playground mentality from some.

 

You know I speak the truth whether you want to admit it or not. Take a look at yourselves, ffs.

 

 

aye, anyone would think they want to talk about Shepherd or something.

 

 

[NE5]

 

Forward players, forward players.

 

At this level, you can't give the ball away all the time, you have to pass and move, and keep the ball, and be patient. I think the whole balance of our forward players is wrong, neither Martins or Owen are players you can hit the ball at, nor bring others into the game. We lack pace and width in midfield. And we lack these things as backup too. He has brought in some good defenders, but if we are going to move into the top positions, he has to change his forwards, and also, he has to accept that just lumping the ball into the danger area is not the way talented players utilise their talent either.

 

The absolute priority is to buy at least 2 forward players to go straight into the team, with pace, and one who will give width.

 

 

 

I agreed with most of that but you lost it with the last line, we played forwards today who were good enough to piss all over Reading, we lost it because we didn't bring them into the game, getting 2 forward players will not change that.

 

so how do you think we change it

 

BTW, getting 2 forward players of good enough quality [not cheap] certainly would change it IMO

 

 

Like who?

 

Craig Bellamy of course.

 

 

would make a big difference.

 

 

[Baggio]

 

How are his players dictating his tactics?

 

He's got 2 wingers and left both of them on the bench today to play a more narrow system, he's got no pace in midfield because he left N'Zogbia on the bench and chose not to replace Dyer properly, this is his fault as they were his decisions.

 

He signed 2 strikers in the summer in Smith and Viduka, how is he supposed to accommodate yet another striker on top of those two?

 

Milner ?

 

Zoggy definitely.

 

Was he negative at Bolton ?

 

I think its possibly more that he hasn't got faith in Milner, and to be honest, neither have I. Personally, I agree with you and I would stick to the team that played on Monday, but if he had better players he would play them surely, don't you think ?

 

Also Geremi, being his captain, means he has to be in the lineup, but he shouldn't be, so thats a problem of his own making. Whichever way you look at it, we have a problem with this position for starters, which we would not have had if he had replaced Solano properly.

 

 

 

 

 

If Allardyce hasn't got faith in Milner then he should have replaced Dyer properly in the summer, it's a problem of his own making.

 

He should have stuck with the team that played Monday night, Emre and Butt have a good understanding in midfield yet he broke that up and left N'Zogbia on the bench just to accommodate Barton.

 

Tactics fucked us up today, not the players, why is he going to teams like Derby and Reading looking to keep it tight when both teams are conceding goals for fun I'll never know.

[NE5]

 

How are his players dictating his tactics?

 

He's got 2 wingers and left both of them on the bench today to play a more narrow system, he's got no pace in midfield because he left N'Zogbia on the bench and chose not to replace Dyer properly, this is his fault as they were his decisions.

 

He signed 2 strikers in the summer in Smith and Viduka, how is he supposed to accommodate yet another striker on top of those two?

 

Milner ?

 

Zoggy definitely.

 

Was he negative at Bolton ?

 

I think its possibly more that he hasn't got faith in Milner, and to be honest, neither have I. Personally, I agree with you and I would stick to the team that played on Monday, but if he had better players he would play them surely, don't you think ?

 

Also Geremi, being his captain, means he has to be in the lineup, but he shouldn't be, so thats a problem of his own making. Whichever way you look at it, we have a problem with this position for starters, which we would not have had if he had replaced Solano properly.

 

 

 

 

 

If Allardyce hasn't got faith in Milner then he should have replaced Dyer properly in the summer, it's a problem of his own making.

 

He should have stuck with the team that played Monday night, Emre and Butt have a good understanding in midfield yet he broke that up and left N'Zogbia on the bench just to accommodate Barton.

 

Tactics fucked us up today, not the players, why is he going to teams like Derby and Reading looking to keep it tight when both teams are conceding goals for fun I'll never know.

 

yes I agree, but I think he's playing who he thinks is his best players first, including Geremi, then shuffling the pack with the rest. I would play zoggy every time, personally.

 

We don't know what he will do if he has a couple of better quality forward players. If he sees it and gets them, OK. But if he doesn't, there is only one way he is going.

 

 

[Wullie]

NE5, you like Owen and think he's top class and you were happy with the signings of Viduka and Smith as forward players, yes? I know you're not convinced by Martins, but you must admit that he's got a considerable amount of ability despite his faults.

 

With this in mind, why do you want us to sign even more forwards? We've at least three who you're happy to see up top for us. We can't just keep signing strikers for considerable amounts of money then after a couple of questionable away performances decide that we need at least two more.

 

Players like Martins, Owen, Viduka, even Smith who I'm not terribly keen on as a player, are good enough strikers to beat teams like Reading and Derby, unless you think that Kenny Miller and Dave Kitson are better than them, which they're clearly not. I know you want Tevez and Henry but we don't need two £20-30m strikers to win Premiership games against most of the dross. Our foursome is top six material and it's an incredibly simplistic attitude to say "more strikers please" every time we lose. A football team plays with 11 players, not 2 [/patronising].

 

Main problem away from home imo is not bossing midfield like we do at home. We are missing Viduka though, we missed him at Derby and although I've not seen anything of today as yet, I'm willing to bet he'd have made a huge difference.

[Mick]

NE5, you like Owen and think he's top class and you were happy with the signings of Viduka and Smith as forward players, yes? I know you're not convinced by Martins, but you must admit that he's got a considerable amount of ability despite his faults.

 

With this in mind, why do you want us to sign even more forwards? We've at least three who you're happy to see up top for us. We can't just keep signing strikers for considerable amounts of money then after a couple of questionable away performances decide that we need at least two more.

 

Players like Martins, Owen, Viduka, even Smith who I'm not terribly keen on as a player, are good enough strikers to beat teams like Reading and Derby, unless you think that Kenny Miller and Dave Kitson are better than them, which they're clearly not. I know you want Tevez and Henry but we don't need two £20-30m strikers to win Premiership games against most of the dross. Our foursome is top six material and it's an incredibly simplistic attitude to say "more strikers please" every time we lose. A football team plays with 11 players, not 2 [/patronising].

 

Main problem away from home imo is not bossing midfield like we do at home. We are missing Viduka though, we missed him at Derby and although I've not seen anything of today as yet, I'm willing to bet he'd have made a huge difference.

 

I doubt Viduka would have made much difference in either game because the service to the forwards was crap in both, I don't think Shearer at his best would have made a difference.

[NE5]

NE5, you like Owen and think he's top class and you were happy with the signings of Viduka and Smith as forward players, yes? I know you're not convinced by Martins, but you must admit that he's got a considerable amount of ability despite his faults.

 

With this in mind, why do you want us to sign even more forwards? We've at least three who you're happy to see up top for us. We can't just keep signing strikers for considerable amounts of money then after a couple of questionable away performances decide that we need at least two more.

 

Players like Martins, Owen, Viduka, even Smith who I'm not terribly keen on as a player, are good enough strikers to beat teams like Reading and Derby, unless you think that Kenny Miller and Dave Kitson are better than them, which they're clearly not. I know you want Tevez and Henry but we don't need two £20-30m strikers to win Premiership games against most of the dross. Our foursome is top six material and it's an incredibly simplistic attitude to say "more strikers please" every time we lose. A football team plays with 11 players, not 2 [/patronising].

 

Main problem away from home imo is not bossing midfield like we do at home. We are missing Viduka though, we missed him at Derby and although I've not seen anything of today as yet, I'm willing to bet he'd have made a huge difference.

 

I think our main problem - like yourself - is that we lack quality in midfield, in particular we lack pace and width. Its not as simple as saying Milner should be playing because he's a wide player, Allardyce clearly has reservations about his ability, which I share. My point is that if we had players who were quality, dropping them for away games wouldn't even be a consideration. Do you think if we had signed Sean Wright Phillips for instance he would be dropped for away games ? I don't.

 

We also need backup, its a fact that players are rotated or injured or not 100% fit all the time.

 

We didn't replace Solano. We didn't replace Dyer, even though he hardly played, but he hardly played last year which was why we needed someone like him who played. Therefore we still need someone like him who actually plays. If the players are good enough, they would pick themselves.

 

My problem about up front is, while I was happy to buy Smith, I know he isn't a prolific goalscorer, he needs someone to partner him who is, like Owen. But Owen has hardly played. I think we have to accept that he will be going at the end of his contract at the latest so should be looking to the future without him. I know Martins scores goals, but he has weaknesses which will stop him being a top player. I'm not discarding him, I know he has value, but it is just a position that we should be looking for someone else with certain attributes that are required and then look at the situation. If you want consistent teams, its vital to have consistent quality players in certain positions, those most important positions being the ones through the centre of the team. I would like him to improve his ball retention and not disappear as often as he does.

 

It adds up to a complete reshaping of the attack. Viduka is not young [he's good but also disappears a bit too much for my liking], and I don't count Ameobi.

 

We are doing alright with these players, but like everyone else, I want to do much better, and its just that I think this is how we will do better.

 

I completely agree that we should be beating Reading and Derby, in fact I think I came on here after the game against Derby and had a go at Sam and got criticised for it [may be wrong, maybe it was elsewhere], and yes I am disappointed in him playing his favourites today ie dropping zoggy for Barton when he should have dropped his captain, which I think was his thinking. Understandable, but the wrong selection, and unfortunately is heading for the same situation as Roeder, who had to pick Parker for the same reason.

 

Edit: what would your first choice midfield be in away games ?

 

[James]

I'd class Owen, Butt, Cacapa, N'Zogbia, Geremi, Martins, Emre and Smith as players who play to win. N'Zogbia only plays well driving forwards, possibly explaining his exclusion from the team, while all the others mentioned have spent several years at clubs who are genuine league and cup challengers every year. These players are used to playing on the front foot, controlling the game home or away, and regularly winning matches.

 

Can you really expect these players, especially considering their ages, to learn to sit back away at Reading, and play for a draw or a lucky win? It is just not in their nature, just like it is not in the nature of England players who win several trophies at club level to sit back an defend a slender lead during international matches.

 

The players, and even the club play for death or glory and nothing else. Whereas Allardyce was able to get Bolton to defend draws, I dont believe it is in the nature of our players or our club, we just aren't comfortable, and never will be. The sooner Allardyce realises this, the better.

[Mick]

I've just looked at the league table and noticed we've played 1 team in the top 7, we lost.  We're currently 8th, I wonder where we'll be once the balance between playing shite teams and playing good teams is evened out?

[Decky]

I've just looked at the league table and noticed we've played 1 team in the top 7, we lost.  We're currently 8th, I wonder where we'll be once the balance between playing shite teams and playing good teams is evened out?

 

In reality though we drew with Villa, beat Spurs and beat Everton, results that will stand by us in terms of league finishes.

[Mick]

I'd class Owen, Butt, Cacapa, N'Zogbia, Geremi, Martins, Emre and Smith as players who play to win. N'Zogbia only plays well driving forwards, possibly explaining his exclusion from the team, while all the others mentioned have spent several years at clubs who are genuine league and cup challengers every year. These players are used to playing on the front foot, controlling the game home or away, and regularly winning matches.

 

Can you really expect these players, especially considering their ages, to learn to sit back away at Reading, and play for a draw or a lucky win? It is just not in their nature, just like it is not in the nature of England players who win several trophies at club level to sit back an defend a slender lead during international matches.

 

The players, and even the club play for death or glory and nothing else. Whereas Allardyce was able to get Bolton to defend draws, I dont believe it is in the nature of our players or our club, we just aren't comfortable, and never will be. The sooner Allardyce realises this, the better.

 

Could Bolton defend draws?

[NE5]

I've just looked at the league table and noticed we've played 1 team in the top 7, we lost.  We're currently 8th, I wonder where we'll be once the balance between playing shite teams and playing good teams is evened out?

 

you aren't the only one who's noticed that.

 

 

[Mick]

 

In reality though we drew with Villa, beat Spurs and beat Everton, results that will stand by us in terms of league finishes.

 

More teams have taken points off Villa and Everton than haven't, Spurs have drawn one more game than Derby and have won the same number as them.

[McCormick]

 

In reality though we drew with Villa, beat Spurs and beat Everton, results that will stand by us in terms of league finishes.

 

More teams have taken points off Villa and Everton than haven't, Spurs have drawn one more game than Derby and have won the same number as them.

 

 

aye we should've beaten boro, derby and now reading-  thats 8 points gone astray

 

[Mick]

 

 

aye we should've beaten boro, derby and now reading-  thats 8 points gone astray

 

 

8 points would have had us third or possibly second depending on goal difference.

[James]

I'd class Owen, Butt, Cacapa, N'Zogbia, Geremi, Martins, Emre and Smith as players who play to win. N'Zogbia only plays well driving forwards, possibly explaining his exclusion from the team, while all the others mentioned have spent several years at clubs who are genuine league and cup challengers every year. These players are used to playing on the front foot, controlling the game home or away, and regularly winning matches.

 

Can you really expect these players, especially considering their ages, to learn to sit back away at Reading, and play for a draw or a lucky win? It is just not in their nature, just like it is not in the nature of England players who win several trophies at club level to sit back an defend a slender lead during international matches.

 

The players, and even the club play for death or glory and nothing else. Whereas Allardyce was able to get Bolton to defend draws, I dont believe it is in the nature of our players or our club, we just aren't comfortable, and never will be. The sooner Allardyce realises this, the better.

 

Could Bolton defend draws?

 

Not all the time (usually the refs fault according to Sam) but pretty often they did.

[Mick]

 

Not all the time (usually the refs fault according to Sam) but pretty often they did.

 

I've never really looked at how they did other than when we've played them, I seem to remember somebody saying that they had a record for goals conceded which wasn't as good as ours last season although I may be wrong.

[James]

 

Not all the time (usually the refs fault according to Sam) but pretty often they did.

 

I've never really looked at how they did other than when we've played them, I seem to remember somebody saying that they had a record for goals conceded which wasn't as good as ours last season although I may be wrong.

 

Down to a very bad end of that season, but looking back at the past three seasons, they did that pretty well which was why the regularly finished in the top half.

[McCormick]

 

 

aye we should've beaten boro, derby and now reading-  thats 8 points gone astray

 

 

8 points would have had us third or possibly second depending on goal difference.

 

 

All supposedly 'easy' away games too *sigh*

[Wullie]

NE5, you like Owen and think he's top class and you were happy with the signings of Viduka and Smith as forward players, yes? I know you're not convinced by Martins, but you must admit that he's got a considerable amount of ability despite his faults.

 

With this in mind, why do you want us to sign even more forwards? We've at least three who you're happy to see up top for us. We can't just keep signing strikers for considerable amounts of money then after a couple of questionable away performances decide that we need at least two more.

 

Players like Martins, Owen, Viduka, even Smith who I'm not terribly keen on as a player, are good enough strikers to beat teams like Reading and Derby, unless you think that Kenny Miller and Dave Kitson are better than them, which they're clearly not. I know you want Tevez and Henry but we don't need two £20-30m strikers to win Premiership games against most of the dross. Our foursome is top six material and it's an incredibly simplistic attitude to say "more strikers please" every time we lose. A football team plays with 11 players, not 2 [/patronising].

 

Main problem away from home imo is not bossing midfield like we do at home. We are missing Viduka though, we missed him at Derby and although I've not seen anything of today as yet, I'm willing to bet he'd have made a huge difference.

 

I think our main problem - like yourself - is that we lack quality in midfield, in particular we lack pace and width. Its not as simple as saying Milner should be playing because he's a wide player, Allardyce clearly has reservations about his ability, which I share. My point is that if we had players who were quality, dropping them for away games wouldn't even be a consideration. Do you think if we had signed Sean Wright Phillips for instance he would be dropped for away games ? I don't.

 

We also need backup, its a fact that players are rotated or injured or not 100% fit all the time.

 

We didn't replace Solano. We didn't replace Dyer, even though he hardly played, but he hardly played last year which was why we needed someone like him who played. Therefore we still need someone like him who actually plays. If the players are good enough, they would pick themselves.

 

My problem about up front is, while I was happy to buy Smith, I know he isn't a prolific goalscorer, he needs someone to partner him who is, like Owen. But Owen has hardly played. I think we have to accept that he will be going at the end of his contract at the latest so should be looking to the future without him. I know Martins scores goals, but he has weaknesses which will stop him being a top player. I'm not discarding him, I know he has value, but it is just a position that we should be looking for someone else with certain attributes that are required and then look at the situation. If you want consistent teams, its vital to have consistent quality players in certain positions, those most important positions being the ones through the centre of the team. I would like him to improve his ball retention and not disappear as often as he does.

 

It adds up to a complete reshaping of the attack. Viduka is not young [he's good but also disappears a bit too much for my liking], and I don't count Ameobi.

 

We are doing alright with these players, but like everyone else, I want to do much better, and its just that I think this is how we will do better.

 

I completely agree that we should be beating Reading and Derby, in fact I think I came on here after the game against Derby and had a go at Sam and got criticised for it [may be wrong, maybe it was elsewhere], and yes I am disappointed in him playing his favourites today ie dropping zoggy for Barton when he should have dropped his captain, which I think was his thinking. Understandable, but the wrong selection, and unfortunately is heading for the same situation as Roeder, who had to pick Parker for the same reason.

 

Edit: what would your first choice midfield be in away games ?

 

 

Well, you say that about SWP but Charlie was dropped today to accomodate Barton and for me in midfield, he's the first name on the teamsheet. We lacked pace and width today (so I understand) as you'd expect from that line up but I think we have some in the squad, enough to be performing better than we did today and at Derby, that's for sure. CN'Z and Milner give us pace (from the former anyway) and width, for whatever reason we didn't use that today.

 

Solano and Dyer, well Solano's legs have gone as far as midfield is concerned and Dyer's a crock who's not that good anyway in any position. I don't feel we've lost anything through losing them. We could do with a pacier, trickier right winger but for where we aim to be this season, Europe, I don't think Milner is a bad option even if he's not the best. Duff on the right, Charlie left could still be an option if Duff can pull his finger out.

 

I want to do better too as we all do, but I don't think that's the issue about today's performance. If we're talking about new strikers, it'll be beyond this season and aiming for top 4. Losing points at places where we have been is a different matter which lies more in central midfield than anywhere for me.

 

First choice midfield is a good question, I'll need to see some more of Barton and also need to see if Emre can find some consistency. Next game, mackems I think, I'd probably pick N'Zogbia - Emre - Geremi - Milner. Not convinced about Butt away from home and Barton needs fitness but I'd like a midfield that plays week-in, week-out when fit. This is potentially our shortest ever PL season, so rotation is not a huge issue. I'd like a settled midfield.