Not sure why people are in shock. (We must stick with SA).

[Dr Spectrum]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

 

O'Neil might have won a cup. But Allardyce bought a right back.

[madras]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

no you said o'neill was better than allardyce cos he'd wone more, i said o'neill had won more than keegan but proves nowt, no-one mentioned anythig nabout who you'd have now or at the end of the season.

 

 

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

[Parky]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

 

O'Neil might have won a cup. But Allardyce bought a right back.

 

Damm right.

[80]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

Oh, well in that case, probably Martin O'Neill. I would also prefer Martin O'Neill to Brian Clough, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Jock Stein. I reckon he'd out-perform the lot of them. Well, he might, anyway.

 

You said O'Neill was a proven winner - he's won several things in Scotland and an English League Cup, just like Graeme Souness. Graeme Souness has also won an English FA Cup. Graeme Souness has won a cup in Turkey, too, unlike Martin O'Neill. Martin O'Neill has won nothing in trans-European competition. Souness was three injuries away from getting us into the UEFA Cup Final. Steve McLaren did get Middlesbrough into the UEFA Cup Final. Martin O'Neill's achievements with Celtic are worth little.

[Guest Alan Shearer 9]

Parky, is Alan Smith still going to be a more important player than Geremi or were you a bit off with that one?

[Slugsy]

To be fair, comparing Souness' managerial silverware to O'Neil's is a ridiculous comparision give the respective teams they were managing and the resources available to them.

 

[Parky]

Parky, is Alan Smith still going to be a more important player than Geremi or were you a bit off with that one?

 

Gone off him since he cut his hair.

[Parky]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

Oh, well in that case, probably Martin O'Neill. I would also prefer Martin O'Neill to Brian Clough, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Jock Stein. I reckon he'd out-perform the lot of them. Well, he might, anyway.

 

You said O'Neill was a proven winner - he's won several things in Scotland and an English League Cup, just like Graeme Souness. Graeme Souness has also won an English FA Cup. Graeme Souness has won a cup in Turkey, too, unlike Martin O'Neill. Martin O'Neill has won nothing in trans-European competition. Souness was three injuries away from getting us into the UEFA Cup Final. Steve McLaren did get Middlesbrough into the UEFA Cup Final. Martin O'Neill's achievements with Celtic are worth little.

 

Sorted.

[80]

To be fair, comparing Souness' managerial silverware to O'Neil's is a ridiculous comparision give the respective teams they were managing and the resources available to them.

 

 

Souness and O'Neill had their Scottish successes with the respective halves of the Old Firm. Their League Cup successes were with Blackburn Rovers and Leicester City, respectively - two quite comparable, middling teams. I appreciate that Souness has managed even bigger clubs without success, but I'm not arguing he is as good a manager as O'Neill, let alone a better manager. I'm seeking to undermine the idea that a manager's trophy record "proves" he is better or worse than another manager.

[NE5]

To be fair, comparing Souness' managerial silverware to O'Neil's is a ridiculous comparision give the respective teams they were managing and the resources available to them.

 

 

Souness and O'Neill had their Scottish successes with the respective halves of the Old Firm. Their League Cup successes were with Blackburn Rovers and Leicester City, respectively - two quite comparable, middling teams. I appreciate that Souness has managed even bigger clubs without success, but I'm not arguing he is as good a manager as O'Neill, let alone a better manager. I'm seeking to undermine the idea that a manager's trophy record "proves" he is better or worse than another manager.

 

try telling that to the numpties ie macca888 for instance -  who say Keegan was a failure for winning nothing

 

 

[merlin]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

Oh, well in that case, probably Martin O'Neill. I would also prefer Martin O'Neill to Brian Clough, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Jock Stein. I reckon he'd out-perform the lot of them. Well, he might, anyway.

 

You said O'Neill was a proven winner - he's won several things in Scotland and an English League Cup, just like Graeme Souness. Graeme Souness has also won an English FA Cup. Graeme Souness has won a cup in Turkey, too, unlike Martin O'Neill. Martin O'Neill has won nothing in trans-European competition. Souness was three injuries away from getting us into the UEFA Cup Final. Steve McLaren did get Middlesbrough into the UEFA Cup Final. Martin O'Neill's achievements with Celtic are worth little.

 

Getting a bit silly now, aren't we ?

How do Clough, Paisley et al come into this ? I thought most of the people you mentioned were DEAD !

 

Lets get down to basics - O'Neill, Souness, Allardyce - all ALIVE(at least, 2 of them!)the last time I looked ;

Suppose all 3 were your choice of manager given that you HAD the choice - which would you choose?

You can add KK in as well, if you like - he's been our boss once, so you can view the choice with the advantage of hindsight....

 

NOW - to be fair - these are probably the only types of manager who would currently take the NUFC job.

IF Hiddink was prepared to do it, I would actually choose him, but we are looking at what we can currently be expected to have available IF the job was vacant, which it currently isn't and I don't expect it to be until at least the season's end, if then...

 

As for your comparison of O'Neill with Souness - how many Chairmen of Prem clubs would choose Souness over O'Neill if both wanted to manage their club(don't say Shepherd, we all know he doesn't really count !)?

Souness MIGHT have won things with Rangers, but they were the Chelsea of their day - Celtic couldn't even attempt to match them, but O'Neill had to work with a much more even playing field in the transfer stakes, and Souness's tenure at other clubs AFTER Rangers tells you everything - the same DOESN'T apply to MON.

[madras]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

Oh, well in that case, probably Martin O'Neill. I would also prefer Martin O'Neill to Brian Clough, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Jock Stein. I reckon he'd out-perform the lot of them. Well, he might, anyway.

 

You said O'Neill was a proven winner - he's won several things in Scotland and an English League Cup, just like Graeme Souness. Graeme Souness has also won an English FA Cup. Graeme Souness has won a cup in Turkey, too, unlike Martin O'Neill. Martin O'Neill has won nothing in trans-European competition. Souness was three injuries away from getting us into the UEFA Cup Final. Steve McLaren did get Middlesbrough into the UEFA Cup Final. Martin O'Neill's achievements with Celtic are worth little.

 

Getting a bit silly now, aren't we ?

How do Clough, Paisley et al come into this ? I thought most of the people you mentioned were DEAD !

 

Lets get down to basics - O'Neill, Souness, Allardyce - all ALIVE(at least, 2 of them!)the last time I looked ;

Suppose all 3 were your choice of manager given that you HAD the choice - which would you choose?

You can add KK in as well, if you like - he's been our boss once, so you can view the choice with the advantage of hindsight....

 

NOW - to be fair - these are probably the only types of manager who would currently take the NUFC job.

IF Hiddink was prepared to do it, I would actually choose him, but we are looking at what we can currently be expected to have available IF the job was vacant, which it currently isn't and I don't expect it to be until at least the season's end, if then...

 

As for your comparison of O'Neill with Souness - how many Chairmen of Prem clubs would choose Souness over O'Neill if both wanted to manage their club(don't say Shepherd, we all know he doesn't really count !)?

Souness MIGHT have won things with Rangers, but they were the Chelsea of their day - Celtic couldn't even attempt to match them, but O'Neill had to work with a much more even playing field in the transfer stakes, and Souness's tenure at other clubs AFTER Rangers tells you everything - the same DOESN'T apply to MON.

but they were winning stuff in scotland,it means nowt, they both won carling cups in england and souness and fa cup aswell. you are saying that you'd rather dave bassett had been in charge at NUFC as he'd won the fa cup than keegan who won nowt ?

[merlin]

To be fair, comparing Souness' managerial silverware to O'Neil's is a ridiculous comparision give the respective teams they were managing and the resources available to them.

 

 

Souness and O'Neill had their Scottish successes with the respective halves of the Old Firm. Their League Cup successes were with Blackburn Rovers and Leicester City, respectively - two quite comparable, middling teams. I appreciate that Souness has managed even bigger clubs without success, but I'm not arguing he is as good a manager as O'Neill, let alone a better manager. I'm seeking to undermine the idea that a manager's trophy record "proves" he is better or worse than another manager.

 

Whether anyone like sit or not, winning trophies is ALL that matters in establishing a club as a top side with worldwide respect - West Ham were universally held up as proponents of football as it should be played in the 60s, and even they won the FA Cup/Cupwinners Cup(they did have Moore, Peters, Hurst etc i the side), but Man U went on to be the most renowned side because of title wins and European Cup success..

Real Madrid have never replicated their successes in Europe that made them world famous in the 60s, but they are still revered because of them.

 

NUFC have won NO Domestic trophies since 1955 , NO trophies at all since 69 - name me another club with our fan base who have been so unsuccessful - KK did a great job for us, but by walking out, he demonstrated that he couldn't finish it off ; either that or he thought the way the club was being run did not allow that because he wouldn't have limitless funds.

[madras]

To be fair, comparing Souness' managerial silverware to O'Neil's is a ridiculous comparision give the respective teams they were managing and the resources available to them.

 

 

Souness and O'Neill had their Scottish successes with the respective halves of the Old Firm. Their League Cup successes were with Blackburn Rovers and Leicester City, respectively - two quite comparable, middling teams. I appreciate that Souness has managed even bigger clubs without success, but I'm not arguing he is as good a manager as O'Neill, let alone a better manager. I'm seeking to undermine the idea that a manager's trophy record "proves" he is better or worse than another manager.

 

Whether anyone like sit or not, winning trophies is ALL that matters in establishing a club as a top side with worldwide respect - West Ham were universally held up as proponents of football as it should be played in the 60s, and even they won the FA Cup/Cupwinners Cup(they did have Moore, Peters, Hurst etc i the side), but Man U went on to be the most renowned side because of title wins and European Cup success..

Real Madrid have never replicated their successes in Europe that made them world famous in the 60s, but they are still revered because of them.

 

NUFC have won NO Domestic trophies since 1955 , NO trophies at all since 69 - name me another club with our fan base who have been so unsuccessful - KK did a great job for us, but by walking out, he demonstrated that he couldn't finish it off ; either that or he thought the way the club was being run did not allow that because he wouldn't have limitless funds.

i agree to a point, if we got a manager who regularly won titles in the top leagues i'd be quite happy but for me finishing 2nd in the prem,italian,spanish leagues is a step above the winning the scottish league. in otherwords it's what you win as opposed to winning anything.

[Wullie]

Surely people realise by now that what managers have won as bosses of the Old Firm means very little when we're talking about them coming to Premiership clubs?

 

If winning small-time pots is all that matters as a manager, why don't we look in the Sunday leagues for our next manager, find the one with the most Shropshire Cup victories. Hyperbolic maybe, but Souness, Strachan, Smith are the types of blokes winning in this league. O'Neill I feel is better than the above, but he can't hold a candle to the top managers in the Premiership. Allardyce would walk the SPL and neither can he.

 

A quick look at any of the squads that aren't Celtic or Rangers in the SPL tells its own story. Apart from Scots, they're generally made up of players who were either getting a game in League One and below or Premiership teams youth cast offs.

[Guest optimistic nit]

Meh whatever. That's all a bit long-winded. General point - if you're calling for Allardyce's head, two and a half months into his reign here and after what he has done - then you're blatantly absolutley off your tits.

 

Well I was calling for Souness's head 2 and half months into his abortive reign and I was proved right, so I will say here and now that Allardyce is just not the man for the job.  He is a clone of Souness, he has no idea regarding tactics and when you look at the format of his sides it is exactly the same as Souness's teams,  ie 433 so he can protect his defence, then when the fans demanded attacking football with wingers he reverted to 442 but played a left sided player on the right wing.  All I am seeing is a rehash of everything that Souness tried to do but ultimately failed.  Allardyce is even doing what Souness did and is blaming the players.

 

He is also chopping and changing the side too much, he changes the side not because it will make us play better, but because it means the opposition have to adapt to a different format and so they then have to change their style to counter.  The problem is that most sides do so with ease, hence the defeats we are suffering.

 

Have to disagree with most of that. The main bit about tactics is wrong imo. SA has a clear set of priorities in all the adjustments he's making. You can see he has been working on the def (there have been lapses yes) and as a unit the whole back line is man for man better than last year. He has made tactical errors with the high line at Man City and too deep against Pompey yesterday. But frankly we had nothing to counter thier pace and power and imo Happy Harry isn't tactically better than SA, he's just gone out and purchased a truckload of players every window since he's been at Pompey and whittled them down to the ones that work...We haven't had that luxury and imo it was also totally correct to address the debt before spending £30-40m on players.

 

SA knows better than anyone that he needs someone to play the first phase out ball (not Butt or Geremi) and someone to recieve such a ball, ideally Anelka or another mobile type with pace and ball retentions skills.

 

If you have trouble retaining posession 433 is better if you are going to dominate and have better players (Reading, Derby) 442 is better.

 

You can bury your head in the sand if you want but I will be proved right

 

Do you think when we get the 2/3 more players we clearly need our problems will continue?

 

You make the same mistake of all misguided optimists, you ask whether I think the problems will continue when we get the 2/3 players we clearly need.  I would say to you WILL we get the players we clearly need.

 

Sometimes it's not enough to throw money at a player.  The 2/3 players we need want success and they ain't going to come to us when we are languishing in the bottom half of the table.

 

Ergo the problems continue and we will carry on nosediving while FSA blames the players for not doing as they are told.  FFS, I know Steven Taylor still has a lot to learn, but FSA has reduced him from a future England prospect to 4th choice at club level.

 

Like Souness did before him, he is gradually getting rid of any talent at the club and bringing in his own men.  Dyer and Solano have already gone and I predict Milner and possibly even N'Zogbia will be long gone by the start of next season.

 

 

sorry but your just wrong. could souness have had achieved the success allardyce has at bolton? they've gone from finishing 6th last season to 19th, in just 11 games and bolton could have finished much higher if allardyce had stayed for the final 2 games of the season, both of which they lost iirc. you say you were against souness after 2 months, well thats two months later than i was and i am in full support of SA. they are two completely different people were talking about here. we are not as good as allardyces bolton were. even if that is all he could ever achieve, i would rather he was employed until we reached that height and then a better manager is brought in to push us into the top 4. he is a better manager than we are a club at the moment, that is indesputable, so he should stay.

Allardyce isn't only much better at tactics than souness, he's better at scouting, fitness and training as well. he also didn't want to let solano go, he had too, and i'd hardly call dyer talent, her certainly wasn't worth 84,000 a week just to sit on a bench.

[Baggio]

Meh whatever. That's all a bit long-winded. General point - if you're calling for Allardyce's head, two and a half months into his reign here and after what he has done - then you're blatantly absolutley off your tits.

 

Well I was calling for Souness's head 2 and half months into his abortive reign and I was proved right, so I will say here and now that Allardyce is just not the man for the job.  He is a clone of Souness, he has no idea regarding tactics and when you look at the format of his sides it is exactly the same as Souness's teams,  ie 433 so he can protect his defence, then when the fans demanded attacking football with wingers he reverted to 442 but played a left sided player on the right wing.  All I am seeing is a rehash of everything that Souness tried to do but ultimately failed.  Allardyce is even doing what Souness did and is blaming the players.

 

He is also chopping and changing the side too much, he changes the side not because it will make us play better, but because it means the opposition have to adapt to a different format and so they then have to change their style to counter.  The problem is that most sides do so with ease, hence the defeats we are suffering.

 

Have to disagree with most of that. The main bit about tactics is wrong imo. SA has a clear set of priorities in all the adjustments he's making. You can see he has been working on the def (there have been lapses yes) and as a unit the whole back line is man for man better than last year. He has made tactical errors with the high line at Man City and too deep against Pompey yesterday. But frankly we had nothing to counter thier pace and power and imo Happy Harry isn't tactically better than SA, he's just gone out and purchased a truckload of players every window since he's been at Pompey and whittled them down to the ones that work...We haven't had that luxury and imo it was also totally correct to address the debt before spending £30-40m on players.

 

SA knows better than anyone that he needs someone to play the first phase out ball (not Butt or Geremi) and someone to recieve such a ball, ideally Anelka or another mobile type with pace and ball retentions skills.

 

If you have trouble retaining posession 433 is better if you are going to dominate and have better players (Reading, Derby) 442 is better.

 

You can bury your head in the sand if you want but I will be proved right

 

Do you think when we get the 2/3 more players we clearly need our problems will continue?

 

You make the same mistake of all misguided optimists, you ask whether I think the problems will continue when we get the 2/3 players we clearly need.  I would say to you WILL we get the players we clearly need.

 

Sometimes it's not enough to throw money at a player.  The 2/3 players we need want success and they ain't going to come to us when we are languishing in the bottom half of the table.

 

Ergo the problems continue and we will carry on nosediving while FSA blames the players for not doing as they are told.  FFS, I know Steven Taylor still has a lot to learn, but FSA has reduced him from a future England prospect to 4th choice at club level.

 

Like Souness did before him, he is gradually getting rid of any talent at the club and bringing in his own men.  Dyer and Solano have already gone and I predict Milner and possibly even N'Zogbia will be long gone by the start of next season.

 

 

sorry but your just wrong. could souness have had achieved the success allardyce has at bolton? they've gone from finishing 6th last season to 19th, in just 11 games and bolton could have finished much higher if allardyce had stayed for the final 2 games of the season, both of which they lost iirc. you say you were against souness after 2 months, well thats two months later than i was and i am in full support of SA. they are two completely different people were talking about here. we are not as good as allardyces bolton were. even if that is all he could ever achieve, i would rather he was employed until we reached that height and then a better manager is brought in to push us into the top 4. he is a better manager than we are a club at the moment, that is indesputable, so he should stay.

Allardyce isn't only much better at tactics than souness, he's better at scouting, fitness and training as well. he also didn't want to let solano go, he had too, and i'd hardly call dyer talent, her certainly wasn't worth 84,000 a week just to sit on a bench.

 

Bolton were fucking dreadful after the turn of the year so to now try and claim they could have finished higher if he had stayed on is clutching a straws to say the least.

 

Allardyce is better than Souness but that doesn't make him good enough for us, he's a small club manager with a small club mentality and he won't get the 8 years he had at Bolton to get things working the same here, he'll be gone at the end of the season and rightly so, he was the right man at the time when we were broke and up to our eyes in debt but we should be aiming higher than him now, look at the managers Spurs and Man City have brought in and we should be aiming for similar.

 

 

[Dave]

Bolton were fucking dreadful after the turn of the year so to now try and claim they could have finished higher if he had stayed on is clutching a straws to say the least.

 

Allardyce is better than Souness but that doesn't make him good enough for us, he's a small club manager with a small club mentality and he won't get the 8 years he had at Bolton to get things working the same here, he'll be gone at the end of the season and rightly so, he was the right man at the time when we were broke and up to our eyes in debt but we should be aiming higher than him now, look at the managers Spurs and Man City have brought in and we should be aiming for similar.

 

Whilst I disagree about sacking Allardyce (I think he deserves more time in the job than a single season), the bit in bold is a fair point.

[Guest optimistic nit]

aye i probably do too but we just cant go around sacking managers for fun. it'll make us look like a joke (again) and other managers will be much less inclined to come here. If we had a world class manager of sven quality (i preffered allardyce at the time admittadly) lined up i would not be adverse to letting sam go, but i think sam has earnt the right with his achievements at bolton to be given a fair crack. if he fails, we'll still be in better shape than we were and the next manager will have a much easier job than sam has to turn around the previous bunch of misfits and if he succeeds then great. he's new to managing a 'big' club and at bolton, a 0-0 draw at reading would not be too bad. he's not going to move seamlessly from one role to another, it will take some adjustment.

[Parky]

He needs at least 2 years ffs!

 

For the record I'd rather have him than Moyes or MON.

[Guest alex]

He needs at least 2 years ffs!

 

For the record I'd rather have him than Moyes or MON.

Exactly. Nearly all the teams above us have had managers in the role for a fair while now who have been able to build their squads and put their mark on the teams.

[NE5]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

But Keegan at his peak was light years superior to O'Neill.

 

if you had a choice between Bill Shankly and say, Gordon Strachan, who would YOU choose ?

 

 

[NE5]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

So you think Allardyce's football, at both Bolton & NUFC, is better than MONs at Celtic or Villa ??

 

I don't see where he says that at all.

 

By your own criteria, he is asking you a relevant question, for you ?

 

These sort of arguments make me laugh more than anything else on message boards.

 

 

[NE5]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

why not have John Duncan when he reached the FA Cup Semi Final with Chesterfield ?

 

Or David O'Leary when he reached the European Cup Semi Final with Leeds [vastly superior to reaching the UEFA Cup Final IMO]

 

 

[80]

http://www.skysports.com/video/0,20285,12606_2849254,00.html

 

 

Excellent video, some very good points not the one about villa finishing above us though

 

I wonder about Patrick Barclay sometimes...."O'Neill is a better manager than Allardyce".

 

There was also a worrying assumption by these hacks that Ashley is clueless and might be bad for the club. Nonsense.

 

O'Neill IS a better manager than Allardyce - his trophy record proves it, as does his getting Celtic to a European Final ; Allardyce has won NOWT...

that means souness was better than keegan ?

 

Lets put it another way - as you brought KK into it, who would you choose if both KK and MON were in for the NUFC job at the end of this season? Sorry, but for me, its MON...proven winner and interested in ALL aspects of a club, not just buying players.

 

Proven against Scots.

 

To put it yet another way, who would you have had back in 1992?

 

We are not back in 1992 - I asked who would you choose if both were in for the NUFC job at the end of THIS season - so - who would YOU choose???

And as for your comment about the Scots, did Celtic only play Scots when reaching the UEFA Final against Porto..!!?

 

Oh, well in that case, probably Martin O'Neill. I would also prefer Martin O'Neill to Brian Clough, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Jock Stein. I reckon he'd out-perform the lot of them. Well, he might, anyway.

 

You said O'Neill was a proven winner - he's won several things in Scotland and an English League Cup, just like Graeme Souness. Graeme Souness has also won an English FA Cup. Graeme Souness has won a cup in Turkey, too, unlike Martin O'Neill. Martin O'Neill has won nothing in trans-European competition. Souness was three injuries away from getting us into the UEFA Cup Final. Steve McLaren did get Middlesbrough into the UEFA Cup Final. Martin O'Neill's achievements with Celtic are worth little.

 

Getting a bit silly now, aren't we ?

How do Clough, Paisley et al come into this ? I thought most of the people you mentioned were DEAD !

 

To the league football, so is Keegan. Retired, sick of it, burnt out etc. People are different at different times in their lives. I don't imagine MO'N would've been much of a manager when his wife was at death's door, and understandably so. Any comparison between today's O'Neill and Keegan is irrelevant, therefore. When people debate who would've won Tyson-Ali, they talk of when they were at their best. I assume O'Neill hasn't regressed as a manager, so it would make sense to compare him today to Keegan circa '92-'96. If today's O'Neill had taken us over in 1992, we might well have stayed up. I'm not sure he'd have gotten us up the next season, but he probably would've done within a couple of years. We'd have then buzzed between 14th and 5th , never having changed the popular perception of us in the way we did under Keegan. We may have come to be known for last minute failure and dodgy defences, but we were established as contenders at a critical moment in footballing history; it has contributed to Ashley buying us today. We could otherwise have been Sunderland.

 

Lets get down to basics - O'Neill, Souness, Allardyce - all ALIVE(at least, 2 of them!)the last time I looked ;

Suppose all 3 were your choice of manager given that you HAD the choice - which would you choose?

You can add KK in as well, if you like - he's been our boss once, so you can view the choice with the advantage of hindsight....

 

NOW - to be fair - these are probably the only types of manager who would currently take the NUFC job.

IF Hiddink was prepared to do it, I would actually choose him, but we are looking at what we can currently be expected to have available IF the job was vacant, which it currently isn't and I don't expect it to be until at least the season's end, if then...

 

As for your comparison of O'Neill with Souness - how many Chairmen of Prem clubs would choose Souness over O'Neill if both wanted to manage their club(don't say Shepherd, we all know he doesn't really count !)?

Souness MIGHT have won things with Rangers, but they were the Chelsea of their day - Celtic couldn't even attempt to match them, but O'Neill had to work with a much more even playing field in the transfer stakes, and Souness's tenure at other clubs AFTER Rangers tells you everything - the same DOESN'T apply to MON.

 

Keeping Keegan aside and dealing with today, I'd have Allardyce. Souness is, of course, a joke. I've never been impressed with O'Neill. He just seems to have a good PR machine, to me, possibly aided by some supporters of clubs like ours having green hearts and giving undue credit to his achievements up North. He's alright, he won't get you relegated, but I see nothing special about him. I've repeatedly tried to get answers out of his fans regarding just what's so good about him - not hostile, just genuinely wanting to know. All I ever get is 1) he's passionate, he'd really get us supporters going (not me, by the way) and 2) look at what he achieved with Leicester and Celtic. I've made the case for Allardyce several times, meanwhile, so I can't really be bothered to do it again. I've always said he's partially a gamble, albeit it one we had to take at the time of his appointment, but his strengths have been our traditional weaknesses and he was/is the most likely to show he's a great manager waiting for his chance (out of those we could once have realistically obtained - we agree on the Hiddink point).

 

Noone in their right mind would appoint Souness ahead of O'Neill, I agree. The whole point of that has been your saying O'Neill's trophy record proves he's a better manager than Allardyce. Whether you think he is or isn't, it doesn't matter, but you're now admitting you have to look at more than just a cabinet to judge a man. I can't say that much for O'Neill's record since Celtic, beyond that to a disinterested outsider, he seems to be slightly underachieving with the new, Ellisless Villa. This place would've gone into meltdown had he run a transfer window in the way he did this Summer up here.

 

To be fair, comparing Souness' managerial silverware to O'Neil's is a ridiculous comparision give the respective teams they were managing and the resources available to them.

 

 

Souness and O'Neill had their Scottish successes with the respective halves of the Old Firm. Their League Cup successes were with Blackburn Rovers and Leicester City, respectively - two quite comparable, middling teams. I appreciate that Souness has managed even bigger clubs without success, but I'm not arguing he is as good a manager as O'Neill, let alone a better manager. I'm seeking to undermine the idea that a manager's trophy record "proves" he is better or worse than another manager.

 

Whether anyone like sit or not, winning trophies is ALL that matters in establishing a club as a top side with worldwide respect - West Ham were universally held up as proponents of football as it should be played in the 60s, and even they won the FA Cup/Cupwinners Cup(they did have Moore, Peters, Hurst etc i the side), but Man U went on to be the most renowned side because of title wins and European Cup success..

Real Madrid have never replicated their successes in Europe that made them world famous in the 60s, but they are still revered because of them.

 

NUFC have won NO Domestic trophies since 1955 , NO trophies at all since 69 - name me another club with our fan base who have been so unsuccessful - KK did a great job for us, but by walking out, he demonstrated that he couldn't finish it off ; either that or he thought the way the club was being run did not allow that because he wouldn't have limitless funds.

 

If that was totally the case, we'd receive a lot less attention than we have done over the past few years. The moment was seized at a critical time, and now half of Britain, certainly its youth, is probably under the impression we've always been a bigger club than Everton and Spurs. I agree that winning trophies is fundamental to a club's ranking, though. That isn't the case with managers, however, Souness proving the case.