The point of no return

[Wullie]

Redknapp and Hughes seem to be popular names all of a sudden, guess how many points they won in their first 15 league games in charge? 14.

 

Redknapp had just taken over the mess left by Perrin, Hughes took over an average Blackburn side after the transfer-window had closed. Allardyce had by far the better set of players available, and almost a full summer to get his transfers in.

 

Portsmouth's not a good comparison. Most of them were his players anyway.

[Decky]

The only time to sack a manager is at the point of no return, if after 15 league games in charge we deem this to be the point of no return, then we all want shot with shit.

 

18 points in Sam's first 15 league games is over a point more than the average points tally new managers pick up in their first 15 league games in charge. Fergie and Rafa in their first 15 league games in charge of their respective clubs only picked up just 6 extra points than Sam has, despite starting from much better positions. Rafa took over a club that had finished 4th and had a settled back-four with players like Gerrard in midfield for example.

 

Redknapp and Hughes seem to be popular names all of a sudden, guess how many points they won in their first 15 league games in charge? 14.

 

We are exactly where we are in the table in relation to just how good we are, i.e. not very good. Which is why Big Sam got the job.

 

Of course performances have been poor and things could be better. But wasn't that what people were saying when they were booing Sir Bobby for finishing 5th? Look who they got, Souness.

 

Which manager in their right mind would want to work here if we give Allardyce the chop after a handful of matches in charge? 

 

Managers like Moyes, Hughes et al at a push, maybe, most probably not. Are they any better than Sam? Remember it has taken them years to get their respective clubs performing at a level we currently regard our own shower of shite as being at least capable of achieving this year, well many did, hence the boos because we're not there yet. They would be no better.

 

Or how about Shearer?

 

Has King Kev been mentioned yet, always a good name in times of crisis.

 

Wake up people. Sam needs at least enough time to see him past a difficult patch which is what this is. Sacking him now could make it a whole lot worse, especially when you look at the list of maybe managers out there. Don't give me your Mourinhos, Cappellos etc.

 

Another popular name is Houllier. Strip away his 5 Cups at Liverpool and guess what LFC fans were pissing and moaning about onb their forums?

 

Playing for draws away from home

Poor performances

Boring football

Weird tactics and systems

Spunking money on the likes of Biscan (our own Smith perhaps?)

Losing to your Derbies.

Falling out with stars like Fowler

Playing one up front

No flair

 

They were glad to get rid.

 

No-one would last here in current circumstances.

 

If the point of no return approaches with Sam, then reconsider, until then at least give him a chance to get over a rough patch which all managers go through, regardless of who they are, their CV and whatever else.

 

Oh and those saying the least we should expect from Big Sam is some semblance of a system, tactics. etc.

 

Well the least Sam should expect from his highly paid, highly experienced, coached and somewhat talented players is to be able to play better than they have done, regardless of formations or tactics.

 

It isn't just his fault or responsibility.

 

Oh and one more thing, one thing that he should have been guaranteed is the support of fans. To chant what was chanted at home to Liverpool was a damn disgrace, not once did Souness or Roeder get anything like that level of shit. Call yourselves supporters you cretins who chanted etc. You showed your club up, you had the scousers pissing themselves laughing.

 

Don't air your dirty linen in public some have said over the complete media fabricated dressing room revolt crap, err same applies to fans. Leave your pissing and moaning for message boards, the cat, the lass if you're Stevie or whatever and get behind the fucking badge at SJP, you know, our so-called home. More like a cauldron of hate. Fuck me how is anyone meant to perform in that kind of environment. You may as well give the visitors a goal lead at SJP with all the bitterness and venom flowing from the stands.

 

My first year back after a season and so away as a regular, and I honestly can't be bothered to go anymore, I don't enjoy it.

 

Half the time I feel like wanting to punch people around me. Won't be long until fights are happening all over that's how bad it is, among ourselves as well.

 

Damn disgrace, more so than the actual results and performances, results that contrary to popular opinion, are par for the course with new managers.

 

Excellent post mate, i myself wrote the season off before it started, its transition period, i have been on the verge of kneejerk alot of times this season but its normal to feel like shit and to feel sick of it after losing and putting in a bad performance, after sleeping on things i always wake up backing Sam and remembering we are in a building process. Next season will be the season where we have to break into the top 8 IMO not this one, it took Souness and Roeder 3 years to make us the way we are, it wont take Sam a year to fix it, far more, but a least with him in charge alot of us are confident he will, which is more than what we were under Roeder and Souness.

[Decky]

Another problem at SJP is also clueless kids and charvas. Im not saying all kids btw, but surely SJP having a good few thousand charvas and clueless kids in would generate a bad atmosphere when things go wrong, they wouldnt sit through a season or two of struggle for the greater good because they are the kind of people who post shit like:

 

"OMG NUFC are cla lik, we r gonna win da lge this cson, fuck M Utd they r fckin scum bastards nd we r btr dan dem"

 

All over their Bebos and MySpaces. They are the kind of people who are either too young or too thick to realise what is right in football and what is wrong and i think that is evident in our away performances which are mainly long term season ticket holders and people with the money and passion to travel the country for NUFC, look at the difference between SJP against Liverpool and between Blackburn, it was like two different clubs and the huge support at Blackburn raised the players aswell and im sure made Ashley know alot of us want Sam here for the long term.

[sicsfingeredmong]

Going back to a 442, would be 'getting back to the basics' as HTT says but that is the best case scenario. However for better and worse Allardyce is a big personality, he's a proud man and to revert back to the footballing basics - re: a system of play, a 442 - would represent a major backflip on his part. As it is the 433/451 attacking-defensive system is too player specific, only certain teams with outstanding talents in the pivotal positions or most of them at least - ie. a balanced 'do everything' lone forward, a side-to-sideline operating defensive midfield general with the accompanying distribution skills needed to springboard the transition game, the all-out playmaker who operates in the hole between midfield and the penalty box, and the book-end fullbacks who provide width when the team reverts to 433 when going forward - have been able to pull it off successfully. Barca and Chelsea are examples.

 

Allardyce doesn't have the tools at his disposal to succesfully implement the system. Part of being a successful manager is to adapt, to adopt a system which best amplifies the individual strenghths/attributes of it's players while papering over it's *weaknesses. One example of our weaknesses being highlighted at the moment relates to the fullback positions. Coming from a slower continental-style league Beye doesn't have the conditioning required to deal with the attacking/defensive workload heaped on 433 orientated fullback, and N'Zogbia's positional inexperience - ie. defending too high, and this is due to his natural attacking instincts - is being amplified by the fact that the current system offers him no wide-cover from the forward wide players, especially when caught out on the break.

 

Allardyce will need major financial backing from Mort/Ashley to make the current & chosen system work properly, a top quality sqaud - from top to bottom - is required. I have my doubts as to whether the financial backing required will be made available. In this case Allardyce has to return to the basics, 442 is the most balanced system in terms of highlighting a teams strenghths and nullifying it's weaknesses. Allardyce needs to swallow his pride & adapt, as Ferguson did last season when he realised that his 451 set-up - ie. which was designed to protect the ageing Keane - from the previous campaign was nullifying it's attacking potential.

 

Label me a cretin HTT but if Allardyce can't do likewise by the end of the season, then he has to go at the end of the campaign. Based on his exploits of keeping his temperamental & talented types mentally focused - ie. Anelka & Diouf in particular -  it could be fair to label him as being the man-management polar-opposite when compared with the recent Souness & Shearer lockerroom brainstrust, but this will count for nothing if there is no forward progression out on the pitch. Personally i think this will be a non-factor anyway because imo Shearer will be installed as manager before the January transfer window. Mort and Ashley will possibly jump early before the so-called 'The Chosen One' entertains serious thoughts of taking the England job, in what would be a 'fan-friendly' appointment on face value.

[TRon]

 

 

I agree, though, that's it's possible that he completely mis-judged NUFC and thought he could just turn it into big Bolton. He reminds me a lot of Otto Rehhagel, who was brilliant with underdogs but failed miserably at big clubs. That might just be because they look a bit alike, though. Otto Rehhagel has a large head.

 

That is my greatest worry, although I doubt he would flop to the extent Otto did. I am pretty sure Sam can forge us into a top 6 side given enough time, but his Bolton style will never get much higher than that. Neither does Big Sam look capable of adapting to a more fluent style, but I do agree he neeeds to be given a chance. At least he's a genuine leader not a muppet like Roeder.

 

 

[Optimistic Nut]

Ok then, here's what I think.

 

In three years time after we've stuck by Allardyce, we've seen improvement and he's got the club the way he wants it. Where abouts do you see us? Can you see us a settled top 6 team? I just can't for the life of me see what Allardyce will do which sets us apart from the likes of O'Neill and Villa, Hughes and Blackburn, Moyes and Everton, Redknapp and Portsmouth, etc. At best, we'll probably be on a par competing with them every season for the UEFA Cup spots.

 

The Premiership has changed massively over the last 5 years, it's not a case like under Robson where you could get a decent coach, decent set of players, and you'd finish top 5 pushing the top 4. The above clubs have changed beyond recognition since then, all have good managers and a fair bit of money. You look at the club who've really went for it, Man City. What they did was went for a manager who's of the standard and has the knowledge of the managers in the top 4. If they'd appointed Ranieri, do you think Man City would be heading in the direction they are now? They've appointed a man who knows European and world football inside-out, who's got a fantastic track record, and with their resources, a man who could challenge Ferguson & Wenger in a year or so in my opinion.

 

By all means, stick with Allardyce, but I see us no better in 2-3 years time than being a good, top 8 club pushing UEFA Cup qualification. But we have a chairman who looks as if he wants to spend big, so if a top-manager becomes available, you get him in, whether Allardyce has this 3-year plan or not.

[ChezGiven]

Nice post Chris.

 

The bloke on MOTD behind Allardyce during the Liverpool game shouting "you dont know what you're doing" was a massive embarrasment to the club on the basis of his haircurt alone.

[NG32]

was a massive embarrasment to the club on the basis of his haircurt alone.

 

What was his hair like?

[geordie jamie]

For me their are 2 reasons why i want rid of BS.

 

1. He has been a major dissapointment

2. I like all the rumours about who will be our new manager all the if's and maybe's will he wont he take the job.

 

But when i think alot about it what are the benifits in the long term in getting rid of him? There are not many as he is trying to build something special on and off the pitch (backroom staff) i say give him time.

[Dave]

For me their are 2 reasons why i want rid of BS.

 

1. He has been a major dissapointment

2. I like all the rumours about who will be our new manager all the if's and maybe's will he wont he take the job.

 

But when i think alot about it what are the benifits in the long term in getting rid of him? There are not many as he is trying to build something special on and off the pitch (backroom staff) i say give him time.

 

I have absolutely no idea what that post means.

[ChezGiven]

was a massive embarrasment to the club on the basis of his haircurt alone.

 

What was his hair like?

 

http://z.about.com/d/mensfashion/1/5/L/3/ice_broch_fc.jpg

[Razor]

The chances of hiring a new manager and him being immediately successful are very low, as the past has shown. It still could work though, but giving Allardyce some more time, heck its only been half a season, has a higher chance of success imo. But for him to be given that time the team selection and tactics need to start working, or change. More time should be given, but only if it warranted.

[Karjala]

 

Another popular name is Houllier. Strip away his 5 Cups at Liverpool and guess what LFC fans were pissing and moaning about onb their forums?

 

IF we ever win one cup I'll be happy with the manager forever.

[ToonMonty]

I agree with a lot of this topic and the general sentiment on the huge post that started it.  However the Liverpool was quite frankly a fucking disgrace.  St James' Park is our home and you let teams the calibre of Liverpool free reign in your home, it's like inviting someone into your home and ignoring the fact they've pissed all over the carpet.

 

Football like all sport has to be played in the front front for at least parts of the game, granted tactics, plans etc can help bridge the talent gap but you still need to get on the front front at certain times especially at home.  After 15 minutes against Liverpool they new we coudn't hurt them so they pushed more men further knowing a goal would come.

 

How do you think Hatton will do next weekend if he starts out trying to stay in the fight and only considers throwing punches in the second half of the fight?

 

I've said in a few threads I agree that he should be given time especially as I don't think there's too much choice in his replacement and the club will look stupid in the nation's eyes again.  However he and the team has to show something, anything really.  Last Saturday they did and hopefully tonight they show more.

 

Presently I'm just glad Derby, Smoggies et al are the real shite in the league but maybe it's just because the Liverpool game flatten me so much.  It was even worse than the Sheff Utd game last season but at least that sparked some improvement for a short while anyway.

 

Crikey this is the thread for big posts, I've never typed so much so uni and that was years ago :-)

 

 

[Montey]

OP is spot on the money.

 

You want to know what's ruining our club?  Answer is the media.  Its easy to blame the fans for having unrealistic expectations, but fans are dumb (that's a universal rule not specific to our club).  The media know this and know that the fans will believe whatever they print.  So they just print/broadcast whatever sensationalist bollocks will generate some hysteria because that generates sales and ratings, leaving the fans with a wholly distorted view of what the situation is.

 

The main thing our club needs is an owner/chairman who sticks his fingers in his ears knowing he has a quality manager and lets him get on with the job, ignoring the fans.

 

The only way I will agree with disposing of Sam within the next 2 years is if some absolute super-star manager steps up and says he wants the job.  Until then Sam's the man!

[Optimistic Nut]

If we stick with Allardyce, where do you see us in 2-3 years time? It's looking like we'll have a fair bit of cash to spend, I'm not convinced Sam is the man who can use that and take us up a level above the Villa's, Blackburn's & Portsmouth's. Shepherd's policy of chopping and changing managers has damaged us here, because I think now would be an acceptable time to change managers early into their reign. It's like a new club to the one 6 months ago. (at boardroom level I mean)

 

If Ashley wants to spend x amount of pounds and doesn't think Sam is the right choice, I'd have no problem whatsoever seeing him get a new man in.

[bulivye]

great post Coach

i think giving big sam the years of time he's said he needs to right the ship is necessary and obvious.  it's like being in surgery.  if i were in the hospital, i wouldn't want people, even well meaning people, clamouring for the doctor to be changed halfway through the surgery just b/c they didn't understand what he was doing or b/c the whole process was taking too long.  there's an element of trust needed from us by the current mgr, otherwise we might cause his hand to waver & the knife to slip! 

 

further, much of our problem is that we get no anesthetics for the required cutting, snipping & stitching that Big Sam is doing.  we're just trying to grit our teeth & get through it.  fact is that can't be done for the procedures SA must needs do.  we carry on whinging and screaming like Sam's f@#$%ed removing a splinter from our toe using salad tongs when really we ought to be fully out cold so that our inflamed spleen can be removed.  what we all need is something to numb our pain!    i'm recommending something of the pilsener variety!  blueyes.gif

 

anyway, i've probably mixed my metaphors & overworked my analogy, but i hope you get my drift.

[Guest jimmy1982]

Absolutely tremendous post Coach. Really stotts the nail reet on the heed.

There's been a lot of top stuff on here, nufc.com, true-faith in the last few days and its heartwarming to see that there are alot of people about who still understand what its all about.

I've shared a season ticket with my younger brothers for a while and we've been increasingly fed up with the absolutely shocking attitude of alot of supporters around us. Hopefully we'll look back on this last couple of weeks as a watershed, where some idiots showed themselves and the club up, and the rest of us have reminded eachother what we're all about, and got radged up for the cause. A lot of people are going to be bang up for this one - I'm not going but our kid is and he's absolutely bouncing off the walls, just can't wait to get there. It's been a while since I've seen him like that and hopefully there's another few thousand like him going tonight. Howay the Lads!

Great post Coach, well done.

[Guest Knightrider]

I made this thread prior to the match at home to Arsenal fully expecting a heavy defeat from the Gunners. The reverse happened, we actually should have won given our possession and chances. Alas we didn't, but perhaps it was a turning point nonetheless. Time will tell. I'm as confident in Big Sam as I was the day he was appointed. Although I'm not as confident in the people around him...

[Dr Venkman]

I made this thread prior to the match at home to Arsenal fully expecting a heavy defeat from the Gunners. The reverse happened, we actually should have won given our possession and chances. Alas we didn't, but perhaps it was a turning point nonetheless. Time will tell. I'm as confident in Big Sam as I was the day he was appointed. Although I'm not as confident in the people around him...

 

please elaborate

[Geordie Boot Boy]

The essayist has returned