How long can Sam paper over the cracks?

[La Parka]

I don't understand.

 

You're on, what, 26 points and all is doom, the manager must go.

 

Yet Villa are only on 3 more, Blackburn 1 more and Everton and Portsmouth 4 more, and they're all supposed to be having good seasons. So how does that work then?

 

I appreciate the football might be poor to watch, and I also appreciate that you've had several games where you were - imho - very lucky to get what you did, but one thing you can't argue with is the fact that you're in a pretty solid position in the table and only 4 points off a European place. Surely the time to worry is when you are playing s**** and NOT getting points.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of people here were coming up with wildly optimistic predictions at the start of the season - top four, top five, neither of which were ever going to happen .

 

If the club was as f***** up as you (almost) all said it was under FFS, how can you expect it to get righted almost immediately?

 

Nail on head.

 

Top post

[juniatmoko]

I don't understand.

 

You're on, what, 26 points and all is doom, the manager must go.

 

Yet Villa are only on 3 more, Blackburn 1 more and Everton and Portsmouth 4 more, and they're all supposed to be having good seasons. So how does that work then?

 

I appreciate the football might be poor to watch, and I also appreciate that you've had several games where you were - imho - very lucky to get what you did, but one thing you can't argue with is the fact that you're in a pretty solid position in the table and only 4 points off a European place. Surely the time to worry is when you are playing s**** and NOT getting points.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of people here were coming up with wildly optimistic predictions at the start of the season - top four, top five, neither of which were ever going to happen .

 

If the club was as f***** up as you (almost) all said it was under FFS, how can you expect it to get righted almost immediately?

 

the problem is our club should be better than your club....

 

lol 

 

I don't know if he's taking the piss or on the level, or if the replies are taking the piss. Or on the level.

 

*shrug*

 

C'mon man... that's very irritating comment. Of course you being happy NUFC getting slumps each season at least your club being above us... what your post above just like to say that NUFC is must be lower than your club you happy isn't it? 

 

i don't know why mostly NUFC fans accept your post it's like you called them dipshitt....

and they agree with you : Ohh yea.... i am dipshitt !

 

People here tends to more patient with Big Sam... Big Sam should know running NUFC is high expectation... it's been many many years since we playing like crap.... and the worst thing is he is not learning with his tactics and player selection.... and that's very frustrating... look at City & Portsmouth they don't need many years to get settle with their new manager blueyes.gif..... not like us... What big sam bring to us isn't Winning Football also... the 2 words that's has been told to be his trade mark... he simply won't learn with what he has at NUFC... if he keep forcing his tactics into NUFC players which NUFC players couldn't manage to do...it's silly... because we simply don't have Bolton Materials....

 

I love the way you never consider playing it safe. Poster of the year material imho. It fascinates me how people from abroad sometimes see more clearly the soul of the club. Merry x mas Jun to you and your family.

 

merry x mas to you too parky & co & family & pets....

[Guest Knightrider]

Change the thread title to:

 

"How long can we keep deluding ourselves that we have a good team"

 

 

 

A fair point (and one that explains many of this year's performances), but it's not pushing the realms of fantasy to assume we have a better team than Derby County.

 

We do have a better team than Derby and on another day the chances we created would have seen us score a few goals and win the game rather comfortably instead of drawing.

 

It seems to me (anyway) that we just can't get things right across the board at the moment. When we do create enough chances to put a team out of sight like yesterday, we can't keep a clean sheet. When we create nowt we keep a clean sheet and nick a last minute winner (Fulham away).

 

Like fans' reactions the team go from one extreme to another, there is no consistency in performances whatsoever. However there is a consistency in points picked up, which is the single most important thing. We are playing crap and are an average team, yet we are a few points away from teams that are good and have had good seasons like Pompey and Villa, as Brummie pointed out.

 

But still people are unhappy and are talking about changing the manager again.

 

When will they learn...

[Guest Knightrider]

Btw good managers paper over the cracks, the whole lot falls down with shit managers.

[La Parka]

He is not the best granted.

 

But look at it realistically.

 

We are nothing more than a mid table club, along with the likes of Villa, W-Ham.

 

Pompey, Everton and Blackburn are all way ahead of us.

 

They have stuck with their managers, given them time to build a team.

 

When dire went who did people expect? Diego? Modric?

 

We need to get real. Yes , we have huge potential, a good fanbase but we have gone so far backwards since Robson! People need to be realistic! So many clubs have taken over us whilst we chopped, changed and allow nothing managers tear the heart out of the club.

 

Smith, a grafter yes. Probably the best we could attract at the time. We need to use what we have, get ourseves back up with the second tier boys. This won't happen overnight. It might take a few seasons, it needs good management, solid leadership and teamwork.

 

I know this rant is barely related to Smith but we need to be realistic. We are no longer the top 6 club people think we are.

 

Sad, but true..

 

Although I posted this in the Smith thread it is probably more relevant here.

 

To sum it up:

 

-Chopping and changing is slowly killing us

-The Club has potential but..

 

-Some of us vastly overrate us, think we are still top 6 material and expect signings of the quality the top 4 would attract..

 

Just my POV.

[tmonkey]

The result wouldnt matter if our only tactic wasnt just to launch the ball down the middle and tussling in the box hoping for rebounds or scruffy half chances.

 

This is the biggest drawback with Big Sam. He was given the job because he was meant to be this tactically advanced super coach, someone who could whip his team into a disciplined system and style of play. Not this non league amateurish bullshit. The fact that he now needs to spend big money on top players to actually get us playing good football is a baffling situation - any manager could do that (well, apart from Souness), so why stick with Big Sam?

[Guest Knightrider]

I would swap half our lot for half the Villa, Pompey, Blackburn and Everton team. I think on average we don't have one outstanding player with the exception of Given whose form has worryingly dipped over the past few seasons to the point where he's now not the safe hands he used to be, perhaps injury has played a part in that, and Beye (in terms of performances). The rest are average, haven't fulfilled their potential yet or are simply not fit enough and in some cases never have been (for us anyway). While a good number of them simply aren't suited to us or the manager's way of playing. Looking at the table, we are perhaps overachieving in terms of how few points separate us from where we are all the way up to 6th. We are a mid-table side and it's time fans realised this and accepted it because these stupid expectations and demands are delusional, idiotic and above all else fucking dangerous.

 

 

[Mick]

Change the thread title to:

 

"How long can we keep deluding ourselves that we have a good team"

 

 

 

Allardyce can only have himself to blame if that's the case, he spent £18 million on Smith, Barton and Enrique.  He's brought in 9 players so has the basis of a full team of his own players if he wanted to play them, it might even be slightly more balanced than the one he actually does pick.

[Shak]

Btw good managers paper over the cracks, the whole lot falls down with s*** managers.

 

The point is that if you continue to paper over the cracks then it will lead to the whole lot falling down eventually.

[Guest Knightrider]

The result wouldnt matter if our only tactic wasnt just to launch the ball down the middle and tussling in the box hoping for rebounds or scruffy half chances.

 

We actually played good stuff in the first half and tried to play football which is why we created numerous good chances. In the second half we went long and down the middle, which we've done a lot this season, but I personally think Derby's own tactics and the feel of the game dictated that. You could see players panicking and just rushing the ball probably in fear of the backlash that would follow a defeat or even a draw as there were boos at the end. You could see Sam time and time again telling the players to calm it down, to actually try and play the ball and to keep possession.

[Guest Knightrider]

Change the thread title to:

 

"How long can we keep deluding ourselves that we have a good team"

 

 

 

Allardyce can only have himself to blame if that's the case, he spent £18 million on Smith, Barton and Enrique.  He's brought in 9 players so has the basis of a full team of his own players if he wanted to play them, it might even be slightly more balanced than the one he actually does pick.

 

£18m sadly buys you average players today Mick, which is what all those players he signed are (at the moment anyway). You rarely get in good quality for £18m. I mean West Ham spent that much on Nobby, Dyer and Parker from us which just goes to show you what you get or rather what you don't for your money. Of course you can buy some quality even for little, Beye for example and Viduka on a free, but in generall you need big big money to break away from mid-table, ala Man City. Or you can do it by slowly building the squad, weeding out the tat and bringing in quality over time like Everton have done.

[Guest Knightrider]

Btw good managers paper over the cracks, the whole lot falls down with s*** managers.

 

The point is that if you continue to paper over the cracks then it will lead to the whole lot falling down eventually.

 

Or things get better, the manager fills in those cracks permanently and we never look back. Takes time and money to do that these days though.

 

 

[La Parka]

I would swap half our lot for half the Villa, Pompey, Blackburn and Everton team. I think on average we don't have one outstanding player with the exception of Given whose form has worryingly dipped over the past few seasons to the point where he's now not the safe hands he used to be, perhaps injury has played a part in that, and Beye (in terms of performances). The rest are average, haven't fulfilled their potential yet or are simply not fit enough and in some cases never have been (for us anyway). While a good number of them simply aren't suited to us or the manager's way of playing. Looking at the table, we are perhaps overachieving in terms of how few points separate us from where we are all the way up to 6th. We are a mid-table side and it's time fans realised this and accepted it because these stupid expectations and demands are delusional, idiotic and above all else f****** dangerous.

 

 

 

Agree HTT.

 

I could name at least 5 players in those teams who would be good enough to take starting positions. We don't have anything pn them. We are the weaker team. (Villa lack depth though).

[Dave]

Having the players means nothing if you don't know where to play them.

 

How anyone can argue that N'Zogbia's talents aren't wasted at left back is beyond me.

[Mick]

 

We do have a better team than Derby and on another day the chances we created would have seen us score a few goals and win the game rather comfortably instead of drawing.

 

It seems to me (anyway) that we just can't get things right across the board at the moment. When we do create enough chances to put a team out of sight like yesterday, we can't keep a clean sheet. When we create nowt we keep a clean sheet and nick a last minute winner (Fulham away).

 

Like fans' reactions the team go from one extreme to another, there is no consistency in performances whatsoever. However there is a consistency in points picked up, which is the single most important thing. We are playing crap and are an average team, yet we are a few points away from teams that are good and have had good seasons like Pompey and Villa, as Brummie pointed out.

 

But still people are unhappy and are talking about changing the manager again.

 

When will they learn...

 

On another day we were beaten by Derby, the only team who have suffered that indignation so far and it could have easily been a double yesterday.  I thought we were the better team until we drew level in the first half then they were better than us, that's not good enough and feels as bad as losing at home to Sheffield United last season.  Allardyce needs to pick things up or I think he'll be looking for another club in the summer.  The jobs his to keep and lose, I think he's more likely to lose it than keep it because of his self opinion, he doesn't appear to think he can make mistakes so will never try to put things right.

 

He needs a big turn round during the second half of the season because so far he looks out of his depth at this club, we might be winning when playing poorly but that will not go on forever as we've got a tougher 2nd half to the season.  I hope he does turn things around but I see no evidence of it happening.

[Guest Knightrider]

Shay? Good enough

Beye? Ditto

Carr? Not good enough

Ramag? Not good enough

Rozenhal? Average

Taylor? Average with potential to get better

Cacapa? A stop-gap player

Faye? Good enough

Enrique? Average with potential to get better

Milner? Good enough

Barton? Average with potential to get better

Geremi? Average

Butt? Average

Emre? Average

N'Zogbia? Good enough

Duff? Finished in my opinion as a top player and therefore average

Owen? Ha, never fit, liability (otherwise good enough)

Ameobi? Not good enough

Viduka? Good enough but isn't going to give you 38 games, stop-gap player

Martins? Good player but not good enough giving his position

Smith? Average

 

So that's Shay, Beye, Feye, Milner and N'Zogbia, 5 players who would always and should always start for me. 5 players that are all decent if not world-class or even top-class. The rest though are a mixed bunch and I certainly wouldn't like to see our team made up of those players for a number of years. Some of them have potential of course but that is all at this moment in time.

[Mowen]

When you say good enough, what do you mean they're good enough for? Mid table?

[Guest Knightrider]

 

We do have a better team than Derby and on another day the chances we created would have seen us score a few goals and win the game rather comfortably instead of drawing.

 

It seems to me (anyway) that we just can't get things right across the board at the moment. When we do create enough chances to put a team out of sight like yesterday, we can't keep a clean sheet. When we create nowt we keep a clean sheet and nick a last minute winner (Fulham away).

 

Like fans' reactions the team go from one extreme to another, there is no consistency in performances whatsoever. However there is a consistency in points picked up, which is the single most important thing. We are playing crap and are an average team, yet we are a few points away from teams that are good and have had good seasons like Pompey and Villa, as Brummie pointed out.

 

But still people are unhappy and are talking about changing the manager again.

 

When will they learn...

 

On another day we were beaten by Derby, the only team who have suffered that indignation so far and it could have easily been a double yesterday.  I thought we were the better team until we drew level in the first half then they were better than us, that's not good enough and feels as bad as losing at home to Sheffield United last season.  Allardyce needs to pick things up or I think he'll be looking for another club in the summer.  The jobs his to keep and lose, I think he's more likely to lose it than keep it because of his self opinion, he doesn't appear to think he can make mistakes so will never try to put things right.

 

He needs a big turn round during the second half of the season because so far he looks out of his depth at this club, we might be winning when playing poorly but that will not go on forever as we've got a tougher 2nd half to the season.  I hope he does turn things around but I see no evidence of it happening.

 

I don't think he's looked out of his depth, I think we are what we are, an average team under a new manager who needs some time and money to truly turn things around like Sir Bobby when he took over.

 

I honestly don't think it would be any different under any manager, not unless that manager happened to be extremely brilliant, but then under such a manager I still don't think things would be too different, if anything it could be worse because expectations would be far greater and many top managers have shown they simply can't work with shite, they need good players. That's why I doubt Wenger could have taken Bolton up, kept them there and finished in the top 6 with a budget of zero, or Fergie or Benitez.

[Guest Knightrider]

When you say good enough, what do you mean they're good enough for? Mid table?

 

Good enough for the top 6, not good enough for the top 4. Although Shay is good enough for the top 4.

[La Parka]

Change the thread title to:

 

"How long can we keep deluding ourselves that we have a good team"

 

 

 

Allardyce can only have himself to blame if that's the case, he spent £18 million on Smith, Barton and Enrique.  He's brought in 9 players so has the basis of a full team of his own players if he wanted to play them, it might even be slightly more balanced than the one he actually does pick.

 

£18m sadly buys you average players today Mick, which is what all those players he signed are (at the moment anyway). You rarely get in good quality for £18m. I mean West Ham spent that much on Nobby, Dyer and Parker from us which just goes to show you what you get or rather what you don't for your money. Of course you can buy some quality even for little, Beye for example and Viduka on a free, but in generall you need big big money to break away from mid-table, ala Man City. Or you can do it by slowly building the squad, weeding out the tat and bringing in quality over time like Everton have done.

 

Blackburn are fantastic at buying cheap and doing well:

 

Nelson: Free

Warnock: 2m

Samba: 250k

Emerton: 2.5m

Bentley: Undisclosed (bet it wasn't a lot)

Pederson: 2.5m

Robbie Savage: 2m

Tuguy: Nominal Fee

Roque Santa Cruz: 3m

Beni Mc Carthy: 2.5m

 

For the price of one Michael Owen. Less even.

 

 

The main obsevation from my point of view is the fact Hughes was given *time* to build. Everton is a similar story. Hughes has a pretty good transfer record though.

[GeordieDazzler]

Didnt Souness buy a canny few of them?

 

Perdersen

Tugay

Emerton

[Dave]

When you say good enough, what do you mean they're good enough for? Mid table?

 

Good enough for the top 6, not good enough for the top 4. Although Shay is good enough for the top 4.

 

You think Milner is good enough for the top six?

[Parky]

Change the thread title to:

 

"How long can we keep deluding ourselves that we have a good team"

 

 

 

Allardyce can only have himself to blame if that's the case, he spent £18 million on Smith, Barton and Enrique.  He's brought in 9 players so has the basis of a full team of his own players if he wanted to play them, it might even be slightly more balanced than the one he actually does pick.

 

£18m sadly buys you average players today Mick, which is what all those players he signed are (at the moment anyway). You rarely get in good quality for £18m. I mean West Ham spent that much on Nobby, Dyer and Parker from us which just goes to show you what you get or rather what you don't for your money. Of course you can buy some quality even for little, Beye for example and Viduka on a free, but in generall you need big big money to break away from mid-table, ala Man City. Or you can do it by slowly building the squad, weeding out the tat and bringing in quality over time like Everton have done.

 

Blackburn are fantastic at buying cheap and doing well:

 

Nelson: Free

Warnock: 2m

Samba: 250k

Emerton: 2.5m

Bentley: Undisclosed (bet it wasn't a lot)

Pederson: 2.5m

Robbie Savage: 2m

Tuguy: Nominal Fee

Roque Santa Cruz: 3m

Beni Mc Carthy: 2.5m

 

For the price of one Michael Owen. Less even.

 

 

The main obsevation from my point of view is the fact Hughes was given *time* to build. Everton is a similar story. Hughes has a pretty good transfer record though.

 

That is good never realised.

4 of those would walk into our side.

[Guest Knightrider]

When you say good enough, what do you mean they're good enough for? Mid table?

 

Good enough for the top 6, not good enough for the top 4. Although Shay is good enough for the top 4.

 

You think Milner is good enough for the top six?

 

Yes I do.

[Guest Knightrider]

Having the players means nothing if you don't know where to play them.

 

How anyone can argue that N'Zogbia's talents aren't wasted at left back is beyond me.

 

I think people way overrate N'Zogbia, he's good but he's no more than that (at the moment) and hasn't convinced me on the left-wing to the point where he MUST play there. He's done no better than Milner has and he's not even left-footed. I'd personally still play him wide left though, but I can see why he isn't and I'm certainly not going to boo like a little girl because he's being played at left-back

 

I agree with your first point but I don't think we do have the players anyway.