The Kevin Keegan debate

[Guest Scouseman]

Sooner or later most defenders Newcastle buy (or bring through in the case of Taylor) start to show their frailties and become disliked by Toon fans or at the least criticised for their lack of defensive skills.

 

Could it be that over the last decade the goal-keeper, that I know you all think highly of (like Shay myself), is the one responsible for these players not showing their worth?  I don't watch enough of the Toon to make a judgement on that but when I have seen them Shay doesn't appear to marshall his defence very well nor command the area well.  A great shot stopper though.  Just a thought.

[Mr Logic]

Given is not much better than a mediocre keeper but it's close to blasphemy to say that on here. His one saving grace was a 9.5 out of 10 on reflex saves which of course makes him look fantatstic, but he's lost that figure now, more like a 7 out of 10 now. His poor communication lays a lot of blame on defenders that is not necessary.

[Guest optimistic nit]

Sooner or later most defenders Newcastle buy (or bring through in the case of Taylor) start to show their frailties and become disliked by Toon fans or at the least criticised for their lack of defensive skills.

 

Could it be that over the last decade the goal-keeper, that I know you all think highly of (like Shay myself), is the one responsible for these players not showing their worth?  I don't watch enough of the Toon to make a judgement on that but when I have seen them Shay doesn't appear to marshall his defence very well nor command the area well.  A great shot stopper though.  Just a thought.

 

is given responsible for the same thing happening to midfielders and strikers as well then? its very simple, the reason we have had so many mediocure defenders over the last decade is because we have signed very mediocure defenders.

AOB and Bramble have at one point been our main centreback partnership. You also look at woodgate, the best defender we have had. when he played for us (as in played, not being injured) he was better than terry was at that time, he was brilliant. somehow given didn't make woodgate look bad. seriously man name me good defefenders that we have bought? i cant think of any apart from woodgate not one. i do rate our centrebacks at the moment, but our defesive problems atm are mainly due to our midfield, although shay has been poor.

[Guest Knightrider]

I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

We lack a bit of patience?

 

53,000 gates every home match despite no domestic trophy in over 50 years and what is it now, 4 successive years outside of the top 10, save one season under Roeder where we finished a mighty 7th that would have Kopites writing obuturies and laying wreaths? Liverpool and other clubs would struggle to get 30,000 under such circumstances so don't fucking bang on about a lack of patience mate. If it is just your opinion and not some media led bile, then you're wrong, very wrong. We are probably the most patient fans in top-flight football man.

 

We didn't get Big Sam the sack, Roeder or Souness, Bobby or any other manager. Yes we have booed, we have complained, we have even started threads on message boards demanding this and that gets sacked, or talked about it in the pub over a pint, maybe even phoned a radio show, but at the match fans 99% of the time simply brave whatever is being put out on that pitch and no matter how shite or how much failure comes our way, we are back the next week or the season after and always will be because we have no other option, this is our club and there is only one of it and we despite our rancour, love the bastid thing and always will.

 

I will give you the entertaining football thing and while it pisses me off sometimes because it can cause issues, why shouldn't we want our beloved club to play the kind of football we consider to be the right way? We are football fans, we want to see good football and when your money is funding the signings and salaries of so-called top Premiership and foreign players it should be a fucking right never mind expected or demanded. Make no mistake about it though, we would not prefer a 4-3 defeat over a 1-0 defeat, that's a Sky generated myth along with the other toss line that we'd rather win the FA Cup over the League. We find no defeat preferential (which fan does?), they all feel the same at the end of the day no? Shite and something we would rather not have to suffer. No Newcastle fan would be sorry to see a winning NUFC side even if it came via boring football either, in fact we would all quite love it really, even those hard pleased. The biggest cheers at SJP are always for effort, full blooded tackles and seeing the lads battle away and is that not the same up and down the country at every other stadium? It fucking should be because at the end of the day, football is about battles, it's tribal war. Sure I love great football, but only a goal gets the old blood pumping more than a good full blooded tackle or seeing my team go and stick it up the opposition in an old fashioned way.

 

Our best atmosphere this season in terms of what was happening out on the pitch came against Arsenal in a 1-1 draw where we basically kicked fuck out of them. In comparison our better displays drew only warm applause and positive cheering and not a red hot atmosphere.

 

At the end of the day, we value the other side of football just as much and in some cases more than the aesthetic side of it so while aye, maybe you do have a point about fans at SJP demanding entertaining football, it isn't as black and white as it seems. You should get yourself to SJP on a match day as a neutral, you'll see for yourself what I'm talking about.

 

Anyway, in general I think many rival fans and the media misread us or misinterpret us and I know why, it's because we are a one city club and as a populace Geordies/Toon fans are basically ultra obsessive about our football team 24-7 which when applied to things at the club can easily read as pressure, expectations or demands when in reality it's just us doing our normal thing, obsessing, analysing and reacting to every single detail, aspect and thing that ever happens out our club in an ultra critical or conversely positive way, every single day, none stop, whatever the weather.

 

Hence the wild euphoria over KK for example or the anger filled ranting and booing at Big Sam when your lot were beating us 3-0 at SJP.

 

People don't understand this or can quite relate to it and never will.

 

Your affinity to Liverpool FC for example is purely a footballing thing, for us it's a regional thing or Geordie thing, the two are interlinked, we don't see our club as a football club, we don't measure things by success or where we are in the league, it's simply more than that, it's part of us as people in a way that LFC can never ever be to a Scouser because LFC does not represent Scousers or Liverpool as a City outside of football. NUFC means far more to us than what happens or doesn't happen on the football pitch. This is why we react like we do and what seperates us from the rest. Mr fat bastard from the News of the World, this is what makes us unique sir or if you will, different. And thank fuck for that.

 

I would honestly hate to be a Liverpool fan, a club and set of fans that have to claim themselves national or others' traditions as their own in their search for uniqueness or specialness, whether it be Celtic's YNWA or flag waving/wearing scarves as something unique to them or something they started (what next, clapping?), to playing the victims regarding tragedy, false rivalry (Man Utd) and by trophies won.

 

Fuck that for a game of football. They day I value my club based on trivial things like scarves, flags, another club's anthem, tragedy or trophies won or even football things, will be the day NUFC becomes meaningless to me.

 

Don't get me wrong I like and respect LFC and LFC fans, great football club and good lads as fans by and large but your club and you as fans just scream out to me "we are special, look here (YNWA, scarves, tragedy, trophies etc.) if you don't believe me". It's as if yous are trying to justify yourselves in today's football.

 

I was on a LFC site the other day that mocked a photo of modern NUFC fans waving scarves basically claiming how we are copycats, that the great LFC pioneered all that, showing a 70s photo of LFC fans waving scarves as if to prove things.

 

NUFC isn't about trophies, scarves, flags, anthems or tragedies. Or even football.

 

And do you know what, I honestly for the life of me can't even begin to articulate what NUFC is about because I don't really know and don't want to either.

[Baggio]

Coach is back on form.

[Dave]

I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

We lack a bit of patience?

 

(TL;DR)

 

I do.

[NE5]

Coach is back on form.

 

oh dear

 

 

[madras]

How ironic that you appear to have got your opinions on what we want directly from The Sun.

Hard considering I haven't looked at a copy in ten years. My opinions of you are mostly based on reading this board. While a lot of you obviously disagree, I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

For the record, I don't think, nor did I say, that NUFC had a crap defence under KK.

 

I don't know what to make of it, myself. Wouldn't want Keegan anywhere near my club as manager, but Geordies are such an odd bunch of fans. You've got next to no patience with managers who try to build up from the back and start from keeping it tight, and I get the impression you'd much rather win 5-4 one week and lose 5-4 the next all season than sneak all 38 games 1-0.

 

I think Ramos might have fit the bill, but who else is there other than Keegan? Wenger? Rijkaard?

 

I think I would rather win 5 - 4 one week and lose 5 - 4 the next week. Compared to the football I've seen in recent years this would be fantastic and in any case  I dont suscribe to this winning at all costs mentality.

For me Liverpool are one of the most negative and boring teams to watch in the premiership, particularly away from home, they are light years away from playing the sort of free flowing attacking football that Man U and Arsenal deliver on a regular basis and hopefully they will finish outside the top 4 this year

No we're not. We're two or three top-quality attacking players away. We've absolutely demolished a few teams this season, but no-one seemed to notice. They were too busy swooning over Man U or Arsenal having beaten someone else by a lesser margin.

 

I admit that Demento and Wenger are more attack-minded than Benitez, but let's not forget Arsenal defending their way to the CL final in 2006 or Man U coming to Anfield to defend this season. It's not as black and white as all that, and there's more to attacking football than passing the ball around in triangles in front of the opposition defence.

so you gave someone a hammering while arsenal and man utd could only beat others......convinces me,liverpool are the best.

I didn't say we're the best, I said we're not light-years away. Big difference. I expect to get some grief on an oppo board for some of the things I say, but is it too much to ask that you read my posts properly before diving in two-footed?

you are light years away,your as far away from winning the league as we are from the champs league..to the casual observer you are going backwards.

 

as for readig your posts before diving in i've read enough about us preferring to lose 4-3 than lose 1-0.

 

you may take a look at other parts of the board,we have a villa fan, a citeh fan,a toffee,a couple of spurs fans,a gooner who don't appear to get their opinions out of the sun.

 

i'm giving you grief because you post rubbish not because you support anoither club.

[Guest Scouseman]

Tiburon, Couldn't be bothered reading it all but my eyes automatically picked out the Reds bits.

 

 

That really is a load of bollicks to be honest.  How the hell do you knopw what Liverpool FC or Everton does for Scousers?  How would you know that through the '80's when the Tory government were heaping every bit of shit they could on us that Scousers didn't see their clubs as a source of pride and a fucking big hit back at the Tories?  How can you possibly understand the pleasure there is in seeing the captain of your team, a local lad, pick up the biggest trophy in club football?  Are you really saying there is no affinity between club(s) and city?

If so you ar very small minded and ignorant about this city.  We have two clubs representing this city and they've both always done it with Scouse pride.  Oh yes, we like winning trophies, it emphasises our love and pride in the city of our birth, blue or red but we'd still follow them through thick and thin.  It's very rare to see a Scouse footy fan in this city walking round with any other clubs shirt on their back.  They're either red or blue.

 

As for your YNWA being Celtics song, well I'm sure you can tell us the history of how Celtic chose to sing a song from a Broadway Musical, because anything after that (Gerrys number 1 was 1963) belongs to Liverpool.  Please show us your source for Celtics claim pre 1963. LFC were first for many things, too numerous to mention, that's why the KOP is  the most famous terracing in football, and I don't know about other fans but I thought Newcastle fans waving free scarves was very plastic looking, far too uniform, bit like Roman giving the Chelsea fans plastic flags to wave on European nights tbh.

 

Every fan thinks their club is unique and special and rightly so.

 

Hope this isn't an insult to you,  but your post looks to be straight out of the Stevieintoon book of rhetoric. 

 

We are not English, we are Scouse, as the banner says.

 

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Liverpool have been so bad this season it's now the big three. They are a million miles away from the top 3 and if anything we're closer to them than they are to Man Utd et al. You have two class players, Gerrard and Torres and the rest are either average or just plain old good. The others have many many top-class players. Benitez has spent a lot of money on average players and neglected key areas of the first-team to bolster your squad, which is pretty decent admittedly. You need to spend £100m on 4 players, centre-back, flanks and up front, to challenge. while Rafa needs to drop his rotation and defend first policy. With the Yanks and Rafa's less than hot judge of talent and his stubborness I can't see that happening any time soon. Spurs will overtake yous next season while Everton will grab 4th spot this in my opinion. Rafa will leave too. Your club is in a mess on and off the field and yous could be in danger of falling even further behind while others like Villa, Everton, Spurs, could all overtake yous in coming seasons. Rocky future for LFC.

 

Oh and love how the Yanks were welcomed with open arms when they arrived, how they would signal number 19, bought Torres, but a few months later and demos to get them out... And we are meant to be fickle?

[ChezGiven]

A scouser lecturing a geordie on what Thatcher did?

 

Fucking hell.

[madras]

A scouser lecturing a geordie on what Thatcher did?

 

f****** hell.

no he's quite right,only liverpool ever gets a kicking.

 

 

 

 

(oh and boris had a valid point)

[Guest Scouseman]

The Yanks were taken at face value, no harm in that.  They then proved themselves to be liars what's fickle about standing up against liars and wanting them out?

 

Rafas a great judge of talent, especially when he's backed in his first choices.  We have the spine of a great team imo.  Reina, Carra, Agger, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres with great potential in Babel and Lucas.  He's rarely lost money on a player and for a net spend of around 64 million he's done brilliantly.

 

I'd rather wait till the end of the season before calling our final position, February is far too soon to be handing out trophies or European places.  Same goes for Rafa, I'll wait and see what happens there.  If the Yanks sack him they'll be shooting themselves in the foot goodstyle.  He's set up great things at youth and reserve level and if they let all that go then they'll be the biggest losers.

[Guest Scouseman]

I'm certainly not leturing anyone Chez, just putting the Scouse point of view, same as a Geordie or a Brum would put their point of view from a personal level.

[ChezGiven]

"every fan thinks their club is special and rightly so"

 

In which case Wigan are just as special as Barcelona?

 

Utter tripe.

[ChezGiven]

I'm certainly not leturing anyone Chez, just putting the Scouse point of view, same as a Geordie or a Brum would put their point of view from a personal level.

 

I just meant we dont need to hear about what Thatcher did to Liverpool when the NE is still counting the cost of that period.

 

Fair enough, lets not get into that anyway.

[madras]

"every fan thinks their club is special and rightly so"

 

In which case Wigan are just as special as Barcelona?

 

Utter tripe.

wigan is as special to a wigan fan as barcelona is to a barcelona fan.

 

some clubs "specialness" exists outside that

[ChezGiven]

"every fan thinks their club is special and rightly so"

 

In which case Wigan are just as special as Barcelona?

 

Utter tripe.

wigan is as special to a wigan fan as barcelons is to a barcelons fan.

 

some clubs "specialness" exists outside that

 

Aye, basically.

[Parky]

The Yanks were taken at face value, no harm in that.  They then proved themselves to be liars what's fickle about standing up against liars and wanting them out?

 

Rafas a great judge of talent, especially when he's backed in his first choices.  We have the spine of a great team imo.  Reina, Carra, Agger, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres with great potential in Babel and Lucas.  He's rarely lost money on a player and for a net spend of around 64 million he's done brilliantly.

 

I'd rather wait till the end of the season before calling our final position, February is far too soon to be handing out trophies or European places.  Same goes for Rafa, I'll wait and see what happens there.  If the Yanks sack him they'll be shooting themselves in the foot goodstyle.  He's set up great things at youth and reserve level and if they let all that go then they'll be the biggest losers.

 

Rafa the gumbie has blown it and the yanks will use your clubs profits to fund their other enterprises. They don't give a fuck about you or your club, the quicker you lot make a stand the better.

[Guest Scouseman]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

[madras]

The Yanks were taken at face value, no harm in that.  They then proved themselves to be liars what's fickle about standing up against liars and wanting them out?

 

Rafas a great judge of talent, especially when he's backed in his first choices.  We have the spine of a great team imo.  Reina, Carra, Agger, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres with great potential in Babel and Lucas.  He's rarely lost money on a player and for a net spend of around 64 million he's done brilliantly.

 

I'd rather wait till the end of the season before calling our final position, February is far too soon to be handing out trophies or European places.  Same goes for Rafa, I'll wait and see what happens there.  If the Yanks sack him they'll be shooting themselves in the foot goodstyle.  He's set up great things at youth and reserve level and if they let all that go then they'll be the biggest losers.

 

Rafa the gumbie has blown it and the yanks will use your clubs profits to fund their other enterprises. They don't give a f*** about you or your club, the quicker you lot make a stand the better.

my prediction is that the yanks and rafa will be gone by christmas

[Guest Scouseman]

The stand is being made Parky and of course  DIC are still in the background. 

 

Not that they won't be in it for profit but at least we won't do a Leeds under them.

[Guest Scouseman]

Not if DIC get in Madras, Ansari has a lot of respect for Rafa and what he's done at the club.

[Baggio]

Not if DIC get in Madras, Ansari has a lot of respect for Rafa and what he's done at the club.

 

I can't see Hicks and his mate giving up their cash cow that easily.

[NE5]

Liverpool have been so bad this season it's now the big three. They are a million miles away from the top 3 and if anything we're closer to them than they are to Man Utd et al. You have two class players, Gerrard and Torres and the rest are either average or just plain old good. The others have many many top-class players. Benitez has spent a lot of money on average players and neglected key areas of the first-team to bolster your squad, which is pretty decent admittedly. You need to spend £100m on 4 players, centre-back, flanks and up front, to challenge. while Rafa needs to drop his rotation and defend first policy. With the Yanks and Rafa's less than hot judge of talent and his stubborness I can't see that happening any time soon. Spurs will overtake yous next season while Everton will grab 4th spot this in my opinion. Rafa will leave too. Your club is in a mess on and off the field and yous could be in danger of falling even further behind while others like Villa, Everton, Spurs, could all overtake yous in coming seasons. Rocky future for LFC.

 

Oh and love how the Yanks were welcomed with open arms when they arrived, how they would signal number 19, bought Torres, but a few months later and demos to get them out... And we are meant to be fickle?

 

 

nail on the head