The Kevin Keegan debate

[Guest Scouseman]

Gillette and Hicks are not speaking to each other Baggio and haven't for months.  It seems the little fella wanted to honour his promises and got upset when the Texan wanted different.

 

Rumour has it that Gillette will sell out to DIC within the next few weeks but it remains to be seen.

[madras]

Gillette and Hicks are not speaking to each other Baggio and haven't for months.  It seems the little fella wanted to honour his promises and got upset when the Texan wanted different.

 

Rumour has it that Gillette will sell out to DIC within the next few weeks but it remains to be seen.

did i say christmas....make it summer

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Tiburon, Couldn't be bothered reading it all but my eyes automatically picked out the Reds bits.

 

 

That really is a load of bollicks to be honest.  How the hell do you knopw what Liverpool FC or Everton does for Scousers?  How would you know that through the '80's when the Tory government were heaping every bit of shit they could on us that Scousers didn't see their clubs as a source of pride and a fucking big hit back at the Tories?  How can you possibly understand the pleasure there is in seeing the captain of your team, a local lad, pick up the biggest trophy in club football?  Are you really saying there is no affinity between club(s) and city?

If so you ar very small minded and ignorant about this city.  We have two clubs representing this city and they've both always done it with Scouse pride.  Oh yes, we like winning trophies, it emphasises our love and pride in the city of our birth, blue or red but we'd still follow them through thick and thin.  It's very rare to see a Scouse footy fan in this city walking round with any other clubs shirt on their back.  They're either red or blue.

As for your YNWA being Celtics song, well I'm sure you can tell us the history of how Celtic chose to sing a song from a Broadway Musical, because anything after that (Gerrys number 1 was 1963) belongs to Liverpool.  Please show us your source for Celtics claim pre 1963. LFC were first for many things, too numerous to mention, that's why the KOP is  the most famous terracing in football, and I don't know about other fans but I thought Newcastle fans waving free scarves was very plastic looking, far too uniform, bit like Roman giving the Chelsea fans plastic flags to wave on European nights tbh.

 

Every fan thinks their club is unique and special and rightly so.

 

Hope this isn't an insult to you,  but your post looks to be straight out of the Stevieintoon book of rhetoric. 

 

We are not English, we are Scouse, as the banner says.

 

 

 

 

From someone who lived there for over 5 years, bar match days its rare to see anyone in footy shirts in Liverpool

[Guest Knightrider]

I think DIC will be a case of being the lesser of two evils where LFC is concerned. More power to LFC fans though in their attempt to reclaim their club, that's what the game needs for a big club to be fan owned. Ideally I'd love NUFC to be fan owned even though I think in Ashley we may well have someone special in terms of club owners as I think we are his passion and not his business as such. That won't stop him making mistakes and getting things wrong of course, but give me someone being lead by emotion over $$$$, there is too much of that in football and it's fucking wrecked the game from top to bottom.

[Guest Scouseman]

 

 

From someone who lived there for over 5 years, bar match days its rare to see anyone in footy shirts in Liverpool

 

Thats true to an extent but kids still do the replica shirt bit, and if they're Scousers it's either an Everton or a Liverpool shirt.

[ChezGiven]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

 

Because the idea put forward by the media is that no club has a right to think of itself as being a bit different, more special, based on a different way of thinking than anyone else. Which is utter fucking shite.

 

You obviously lap up whatever Martin Samuel wants to feed you. Do you boycott all of news international of just the sun? Apparently not as you seem to be just regurgitating his ill thought out and simplistic point of view. Clubs are different, fans are different, places have different affinities to their clubs. Bilbao, Napoli, Barcelona are just a few examples of why clubs are not created nor should be treated equally.

 

It may seem a contradiction but you can only really see this when you are capable of objectively looking at the situation, rather than from a partisan point of view. Show me a Wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona and i'll show you a retard.

[Guest Scouseman]

I rarely read nationals at all (Henry Winter excepted) and Martin Samuels is just one of those tossers who appear on a Sunday morning football show, but don’t let that put you off your own skewed perceptions.

 

I think my club is the most special and unique on the planet, if that makes me a retard then that’s fine.   There isn’t another club in the world I’d like mine to be more like and I don’t need some shitty little rag to tell me yay or ney to that.  I would imagine it’s the same for most fans of all football clubs except where the winning of trophies is concerned.   

 

For someone who appears to decry the reading of such material you seem well versed in the content of red tops and their approach to football fans.  Couldn’t be that you yourself  ‘lap’ it all  up could it?  Well unlike many I’m more than capable of making my own mind up about things, thanks.

 

 

 

[ChezGiven]

My point was some clubs are more special than others, obviously Liverpool are one of them. Whether a fan thinks it about their club is irrelevant. Delusion is a way of life.

 

I'm well versed in the wank that is spouted in the red tops as we have a thread dedicated to it and .com have also been highlighting the shite that has been written about our club in the last month.

[Parky]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

 

Because the idea put forward by the media is that no club has a right to think of itself as being a bit different, more special, based on a different way of thinking than anyone else. Which is utter fucking shite.

 

You obviously lap up whatever Martin Samuel wants to feed you. Do you boycott all of news international of just the sun? Apparently not as you seem to be just regurgitating his ill thought out and simplistic point of view. Clubs are different, fans are different, places have different affinities to their clubs. Bilbao, Napoli, Barcelona are just a few examples of why clubs are not created nor should be treated equally.

 

It may seem a contradiction but you can only really see this when you are capable of objectively looking at the situation, rather than from a partisan point of view. Show me a Wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona and i'll show you a retard.

 

 

Good examples. More a way of life than a club. Cultural impact of such clubs and their hinterland is what makes them special.

[Guest Hoop Blah]

Hard considering I haven't looked at a copy in ten years. My opinions of you are mostly based on reading this board. While a lot of you obviously disagree, I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

To be fair to Wacko, as another opposition fan that pops on here every now and again, I have to agree that the posts on this site do nothing to dispell the so called media stereotype of Geordie fans expectations and lack of patience.

 

Even some of the replies on this thread trying to disprove it just add more weight to it.

 

As painful as it can be to watch, at some point your going to have to give a manager time to actually build a team and see the job through, even if at times it doesn't look like it's going to pay off.

 

I pity some of the football you've had to put up with under the likes of Roeder and Souness but you have to accept that it's a long process to rebuild, unless you get lucky AND throw lots of money at it like City have with Sven this season.

[madras]

Hard considering I haven't looked at a copy in ten years. My opinions of you are mostly based on reading this board. While a lot of you obviously disagree, I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

To be fair to Wacko, as another opposition fan that pops on here every now and again, I have to agree that the posts on this site do nothing to dispell the so called media stereotype of Geordie fans expectations and lack of patience.

 

Even some of the replies on this thread trying to disprove it just add more weight to it.

 

As painful as it can be to watch, at some point your going to have to give a manager time to actually build a team and see the job through, even if at times it doesn't look like it's going to pay off.

 

I pity some of the football you've had to put up with under the likes of Roeder and Souness but you have to accept that it's a long process to rebuild, unless you get lucky AND throw lots of money at it like City have with Sven this season.

yet the majority just want improvement. how long do you think a club with a new owner would give a manager who shows not even a hope of improvement ?

 

 

[Guest Hoop Blah]

yet the majority just want improvement. how long do you think a club with a new owner would give a manager who shows not even a hope of improvement ?

 

 

 

The change in ownership certainly handcuffed Allardyce, but I was talking more about the fans reaction and expectations than that of the owner.

 

The owner was obviously the one that pulled the rug on the manager but he does seem to be led by the feeling 'on the terraces.'

 

 

On the special club comments...as a fan of a small club I've never really wanted Reading to be like any other club, I've just wanted us to the best we can.  I can't say I like a lot of the rubbish that surrounds being in the Premiership but I can understand the arguement of the Barca's etc being more than just a football club because of the history of the region.  That might mean a lot in terms of the scale of feeling and the numbers involved, but it doesn't really make much difference on individual level (although taking my club as an example, we only really have probably 5-8,000 proper hardcore fans amongst our 18,000 STH who have the club as close to their heart as perhaps your 50,000 (or whatever number you want to go with) Geordie nation addicts). 

 

You support a massive club, that make it speacial in it's own way, but all clubs are special in their own different ways.

[madras]

yet the majority just want improvement. how long do you think a club with a new owner would give a manager who shows not even a hope of improvement ?

 

 

 

The change in ownership certainly handcuffed Allardyce, but I was talking more about the fans reaction and expectations than that of the owner.

 

The owner was obviously the one that pulled the rug on the manager but he does seem to be led by the feeling 'on the terraces.'

 

 

On the special club comments...as a fan of a small club I've never really wanted Reading to be like any other club, I've just wanted us to the best we can.  I can't say I like a lot of the rubbish that surrounds being in the Premiership but I can understand the arguement of the Barca's etc being more than just a football club because of the history of the region.  That might mean a lot in terms of the scale of feeling and the numbers involved, but it doesn't really make much difference on individual level (although taking my club as an example, we only really have probably 5-8,000 proper hardcore fans amongst our 18,000 STH who have the club as close to their heart as perhaps your 50,000 (or whatever number you want to go with) Geordie nation addicts). 

 

You support a massive club, that make it speacial in it's own way, but all clubs are special in their own different ways.

allardyce was given as much to spend on average as previous managers. he  offered no hope of improvement....so i'll ask again,how long would any club with a new owner keep a manager in that situation ?

[johnnypd]

Hard considering I haven't looked at a copy in ten years. My opinions of you are mostly based on reading this board. While a lot of you obviously disagree, I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

To be fair to Wacko, as another opposition fan that pops on here every now and again, I have to agree that the posts on this site do nothing to dispell the so called media stereotype of Geordie fans expectations and lack of patience.

 

Even some of the replies on this thread trying to disprove it just add more weight to it.

 

As painful as it can be to watch, at some point your going to have to give a manager time to actually build a team and see the job through, even if at times it doesn't look like it's going to pay off.

 

I pity some of the football you've had to put up with under the likes of Roeder and Souness but you have to accept that it's a long process to rebuild, unless you get lucky AND throw lots of money at it like City have with Sven this season.

 

robson finished in mid-table for two seasons and we still backed him, then he got us into the champion's league positions twice and 5th another time. it was clear that he was a good manager so he got the backing. likewise with keegan who has succeeded here before and will infinite time from the supporters.

 

i wonder if liverpool had managers finishing in 11th for two seasons in a row, they'd be so patient. and that was only 2 years after finishing title runners-up in consecutive seasons. most newcastle fans were even prepared to let graeme souness have a go, despite the fact that in his first season here he took us from a top 4/5 club to 14th and that he showed himself to be a buffoon. as for roeder, he was never cut out for the job, most felt sorry for him if anything, and when we suffered terrible defeats, ie sheff utd at home, the anger was generally directed at Shepherd.

 

there seems to be a common misconception amongst other fans that we've got allardyce (or other managers for that matter) sacked. it's bollocks, the away fans were chanting his name in his last game here (a draw to lowly stoke). yes there were grumblings but very few wanted him gone, there's a difference between talking about tactics, team selection, transfer policy and shouting 'sam out!'. if you look back on here when he left most were shocked and a loads thought the manner and timing of the departure was shoddy.

 

the truth is allardyce left cos the chairman chris mort and owner mike ashley wanted to bring in their own team. the sooner you realise this and stop latching on to media myths and stereotypes the better. if you go to a country looking for stereotypes to be confirmed you're a twat, but you will find them. much better is to go somewhere with an open mind and come away wiser. likewise, if you come on here after being fed shite drivel from talentless hacks who resort to sensationalism and controversy to shift papers, and look for things to back them up, you'll no doubt find one or two loonies that fit the charicature. you know, the types who furiously write "benitez is out of his depth" on message boards after getting knocked out of the cup by burnley, or burn gerrard's shirt at the slightest whiff of rumours that he's leaving (does turning on your new owners after a few months constitute being fickle?). there's a minority like that at every club. if you want to think they represent nufc fans (or lpool fans for that matter)you're brainless.

[Guest Hoop Blah]

allardyce was given as much to spend on average as previous managers. he  offered no hope of improvement....so i'll ask again,how long would any club with a new owner keep a manager in that situation ?

 

Well the closest recent example would be Villa, and they gave O'Neil plenty more time to turn things around.

 

We at Reading had a similar poor run under Coppell when we blew our play off chances on a run of 11 games without a win.  Yes there were rumblings amongst a small number of fans at the time but the owners stuck with him.  Slightly different as he was their man in the first place but we were pretty dreadful!

 

Allardyce did also spend a bit of money yes, I'm not trying to defend him, but was it that much relative to the current market place?  You'll know the figures better than I will but I guess you were hoping for an impact similar to Sven's at City or O'Neil's at Villa but he didn't, from memory, have anywhere near the kind of money they had.

 

I can understand the wrong man at the wrong club/wrong time arguement, and if he was the new owners man I'm sure it would've been different, but from an outsiders point of view it was a rash move.

[Guest Hoop Blah]

robson finished in mid-table for two seasons and we still backed him, then he got us into the champion's league positions twice and 5th another time. it was clear that he was a good manager so he got the backing. likewise with keegan who has succeeded here before and will infinite time from the supporters.

 

i wonder if liverpool had managers finishing in 11th for two seasons in a row, they'd be so patient. and that was only 2 years after finishing title runners-up in consecutive seasons. most newcastle fans were even prepared to let graeme souness have a go, despite the fact that in his first season here he took us from a top 4/5 club to 14th and that he showed himself to be a buffoon. as for roeder, he was never cut out for the job, most felt sorry for him if anything, and when we suffered terrible defeats, ie sheff utd at home, the anger was generally directed at Shepherd.

 

I've no idea what Liverpool or Celtic would do.  Being a Reading fan posting on a Newcastle board I hadn't really given either clubs reaction much of a thought.

 

Personally I'm amazed at the patience the Scousers have for Rafa as he'll never deliever a league title for them as he's too stuborn to accept his rotation policy has cost them challenging the top three for the last couple of seasons at least.

 

The Sir Bobby point is pretty valid though.  I can't really remember the reaction to those 11th places but I yes he was more time, and I guess being a local probably helped a lot in that.  Do you think being in the aftermath of Keegan helped matters?  Also, unfortunately times have changed a bit since then and the whole of football is less patient, it's not soley a Geordie affliction.

 

there seems to be a common misconception amongst other fans that we've got allardyce (or other managers for that matter) sacked. it's bollocks, the away fans were chanting his name in his last game here (a draw to lowly stoke). yes there were grumblings but very few wanted him gone, there's a difference between talking about tactics, team selection, transfer policy and shouting 'sam out!'. if you look back on here when he left most were shocked and a loads thought the manner and timing of the departure was shoddy.

 

the truth is allardyce left cos the chairman chris mort and owner mike ashley wanted to bring in their own team. the sooner you realise this and stop latching on to media myths and stereotypes the better. if you go to a country looking for stereotypes to be confirmed you're a t***, but you will find them. much better is to go somewhere with an open mind and come away wiser. likewise, if you come on here after being fed s**** drivel from talentless hacks who resort to sensationalism and controversy to shift papers, and look for things to back them up, you'll no doubt find one or two loonies that fit the charicature. you know, the types who furiously write "benitez is out of his depth" on message boards after getting knocked out of the cup by burnley, or burn gerrard's shirt at the slightest whiff of rumours that he's leaving (does turning on your new owners after a few months constitute being fickle?). there's a minority like that at every club. if you want to think they represent nufc fans (or lpool fans for that matter)you're brainless.

 

I've drawn my conclusions from occassionally visiting this board.  I know from our own board how the opinions expressed on a forum don't always reflect the true fanbase but there was plenty of people calling for Allardyces head on here, there are still plenty supporting the decision now (and being critical of it too to be fair), and there are even those who are sounding less than happy with Keegan already.

 

They do represent NUFC fans though, maybe not all of them, but some of them.  I know they exist at all clubs, but in the same way as other posters have said how Newcastle is so special because it represents the "Geordie nation" as opposed to just being a football club, you have to accept that that means you get positive and negatives from that special affinity between club and fans.

[johnnypd]

^The people uneasy with Keegan were probably the same when he came, not swayed by the first few games. again, not every nufc is a gurning loon that you see on skysportsnews. but generally he has huge support and with most fans writing off this season all he needs to do is secure premiership status.

 

with Allardyce, there were very few who wanted him gone immediately and even fewer expected him to be sacked. the overall opinion of allardyce was, i'd say, sceptical - will give him time but won't shed a tear if he leaves. i think that has been reflected since he left, no one was overwhelmingly upset but no-one was cracking open the champagne either, he didn't make enough impression on the fans, we weren't totally won over but similarly, we weren't vehemently against him. people voicing discontent should be taken with a pinch of salt, im sure i voted for him to be sacked at one point, not cos i actually did, i was just voicing discontent through that medium. most wouldve given him this season and if he was still making basic mistakes and hadn't adapted to the club, i think we would've seen opposition mount against him in the stands in 2009.

 

you have to remember that it's a new board so when people are supporting the decision (or disapproving) it is more a reflection of them backing or critiquing the new owner, and understanding that he wanted his own man or analysing his motives. ultimately they're more important than allardyce who was shepherd's appointment and therefore a bit of a dead man walking (not unlike ranieri under abramovich). again, they made the decision on their own, not the fans.

[Guest alex]

As another Liverpool fan pointed out, they've never finished below 8th since they last came up in the 60's under Bill Shankly. So the comparisons with them and other clubs aren't always that applicable when it comes to patience. And fuck me, Benitez hasn't and probably won't win the league but he's won the Champions League and FA Cup since going there so it's not like they've had to suffer a major trophy drought (in fact most Liverpool fans around today never have).

Also, to follow on from what johnnypd said about the fans getting managers out at NUFC, it's bollocks, it really is. The week before last I managed to bring myself to read Rod Liddle's consistently appalling column in the Sports Section of the Sunday Times and he was going on about this. What bothers me is that lied so fragrantly about what went on here. Telling of fans shouting for 'Roeder Out' as well as other campaigns to remove managers that just didn't happen.

I wouldn't totally go against what Hoop Blah is saying (canny handle btw) since some of our fans deserve everything they get. I don't think we're any more fickle than your typical set of fans though. If anything we're more loyal.

[wacko]

How ironic that you appear to have got your opinions on what we want directly from The Sun.

Hard considering I haven't looked at a copy in ten years. My opinions of you are mostly based on reading this board. While a lot of you obviously disagree, I still believe that Newcastle fans lack a bit of patience and have a high expectancy of entertaining football.

 

For the record, I don't think, nor did I say, that NUFC had a crap defence under KK.

 

I don't know what to make of it, myself. Wouldn't want Keegan anywhere near my club as manager, but Geordies are such an odd bunch of fans. You've got next to no patience with managers who try to build up from the back and start from keeping it tight, and I get the impression you'd much rather win 5-4 one week and lose 5-4 the next all season than sneak all 38 games 1-0.

 

I think Ramos might have fit the bill, but who else is there other than Keegan? Wenger? Rijkaard?

 

I think I would rather win 5 - 4 one week and lose 5 - 4 the next week. Compared to the football I've seen in recent years this would be fantastic and in any case  I dont suscribe to this winning at all costs mentality.

For me Liverpool are one of the most negative and boring teams to watch in the premiership, particularly away from home, they are light years away from playing the sort of free flowing attacking football that Man U and Arsenal deliver on a regular basis and hopefully they will finish outside the top 4 this year

No we're not. We're two or three top-quality attacking players away. We've absolutely demolished a few teams this season, but no-one seemed to notice. They were too busy swooning over Man U or Arsenal having beaten someone else by a lesser margin.

 

I admit that Demento and Wenger are more attack-minded than Benitez, but let's not forget Arsenal defending their way to the CL final in 2006 or Man U coming to Anfield to defend this season. It's not as black and white as all that, and there's more to attacking football than passing the ball around in triangles in front of the opposition defence.

so you gave someone a hammering while arsenal and man utd could only beat others......convinces me,liverpool are the best.

I didn't say we're the best, I said we're not light-years away. Big difference. I expect to get some grief on an oppo board for some of the things I say, but is it too much to ask that you read my posts properly before diving in two-footed?

 

Firstly Rafa is not as good as Fergie or Wenger. But he's a lot better than the last few plonkers we've had around here. So you will understand that we are pleased to get Kev as he is many levels above the dross we've had recently.

 

Building from the back and keeping it tight is rubbish and utter shite incidentally. Allardyce changed his backline every week, even though he bought most of the players in it. Souness payed money for Boumsong, and oversaw some ridiculous defending. Roeder... really. Would you have him?

 

Lastly, a win every second week would get us a hell of a lot more points than we'll get this season. So you're damn right I'd take it.

Brilliant! I suppose you would have more points that way, sadly.

 

I have to concede you're right that Rafa certainly isn't as good in the league as Demento and Wenger. He's had long enough to get his head around it now, but he doesn't seem to have entirely managed. He's one of the very best manager there is in the European game, though. As you say, he's definitely in a different class to the last few managers that you've had, but I was surprised Allardyce failed so miserably. I thought he'd do a fairly good job.

 

[Guest Bolton Zulu]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

Show me a Wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona and i'll show you a retard.

 

 

Good examples. More a way of life than a club. Cultural impact of such clubs and their hinterland is what makes them special.

 

And yet the North East is peppered with fans who think Newcastle United are more special than Barcelona! So - they will be....? 

[Wullie]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

Show me a Wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona and i'll show you a retard.

 

 

Good examples. More a way of life than a club. Cultural impact of such clubs and their hinterland is what makes them special.

 

And yet the North East is peppered with fans who think Newcastle United are more special than Barcelona! So - they will be....? 

 

In your mind maybe.

[Guest Bolton Zulu]

Bet there is! 

[ChezGiven]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

Show me a Wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona and i'll show you a retard.

 

 

Good examples. More a way of life than a club. Cultural impact of such clubs and their hinterland is what makes them special.

 

And yet the North East is peppered with fans who think Newcastle United are more special than Barcelona! So - they will be....? 

 

In terms of comprehension skills and the ability to follow a logical train of thought, i'd put you down there with the wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona.

 

Well done for being they type of spacka we are going on about 

[madras]

allardyce was given as much to spend on average as previous managers. he  offered no hope of improvement....so i'll ask again,how long would any club with a new owner keep a manager in that situation ?

 

Well the closest recent example would be Villa, and they gave O'Neil plenty more time to turn things around.

 

We at Reading had a similar poor run under Coppell when we blew our play off chances on a run of 11 games without a win.  Yes there were rumblings amongst a small number of fans at the time but the owners stuck with him.  Slightly different as he was their man in the first place but we were pretty dreadful!

 

Allardyce did also spend a bit of money yes, I'm not trying to defend him, but was it that much relative to the current market place?  You'll know the figures better than I will but I guess you were hoping for an impact similar to Sven's at City or O'Neil's at Villa but he didn't, from memory, have anywhere near the kind of money they had.

 

I can understand the wrong man at the wrong club/wrong time arguement, and if he was the new owners man I'm sure it would've been different, but from an outsiders point of view it was a rash move.

totally different as lerner (although he didn't own the club at the time) was the man behind getting o'neill in.

[Guest Bolton Zulu]

Of course Wigan is special and unique to a Wigan fan, why would they want to judge their specialness against Barcelona or anyone else?

Show me a Wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona and i'll show you a retard.

 

 

Good examples. More a way of life than a club. Cultural impact of such clubs and their hinterland is what makes them special.

 

And yet the North East is peppered with fans who think Newcastle United are more special than Barcelona! So - they will be....? 

 

In terms of comprehension skills and the ability to follow a logical train of thought, i'd put you down there with the wigan fan who thinks they are just as special as Barcelona.

 

Well done for being they type of spacka we are going on about 

 

Oh. alright then.