Ashley has failed Newcastle United.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

No Mick, its all the cock-er-nees' fault...............................

[Guest Anth.Nufc]

Has anyone even heard Mike Ashley speak?!? thats what makes me wonder now no directors at the club at the moment will come out and speak.

[NE5]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a manager’s job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

oh dear.

 

I can just see it now, Ashley playing hell with his cahoots for losing Keegan and not even phoning him to let him know what was going on

 

[Offshore]

The more that comes to light regarding Ashley, his cronies and the new "Euro-style" set-up at our club the more I suspect that we are intentionally being slimmed down to the bare bones both in terms of financial outlay - wages, transfer budget and the rest. Long before the Keegan bust up occurred I reckon Ashley and his advisors have been positioning the club with minimum expenditure thus looking for maximum profit in terms of a sale. In business circles Ashley is well aware that there are a number of major outfits circling the Premier League looking to buy up a club of stature. Newcastle are a club of stature with potential that has never been realised. Ashley has stated that he isn't looking to sell but want's other investors to help take up the strain. I don't buy this. Doesn't feel right. Probably just good PR - as was the hiring of Keegan - to keep the natives happy while he goes fishing.

 

The thing that pissed me off about this whole thing is Man City could and should have been us.

 

Thats the thing though, there's nothing new coming to 'light' other than speculation and wishful thinking.

 

We'll have to wait until we hear from 'both' sides in this before the real facts, if ever, are presented.

 

Some see KK as being the innocent fall guy in this and the board being 100% to blame, me FWIW  I see it nearer 50/50.

[Mick]

 

No Mick, its all the cock-er-nees' fault...............................

 

My mistake, Ashley is the worstest by far.

[Mick]

 

oh dear.

 

I can just see it now, Ashley playing hell with his cahoots for losing Keegan and not even phoning him to let him know what was going on

 

 

You do know that Keegan resigned, don't you?

[Syrette]

Something I was wondering - when Keegan took the job, did he make it clear enough that he wanted more or less full control over who comes in and out? Would he have taken the job in the first place if he knew what was coming?

[magorific]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

[Mick]

Something I was wondering - when Keegan took the job, did he make it clear enough that he wanted more or less full control over who comes in and out? Would he have taken the job in the first place if he knew what was coming?

 

Keegan was told that he had the final say.

[Robster]

Something I was wondering - when Keegan took the job, did he make it clear enough that he wanted more or less full control over who comes in and out? Would he have taken the job in the first place if he knew what was coming?

 

I think if this question was answered it would make an awful lot of things a lot clearer and people could certainly and finally point the finger of blame at someone.

I cant believe that KK wouldnt have made this clear but who can say until someone starts talking to us about what really happened.

 

 

[Unbelievable]

Darth

 

I seem to recall in an interview somewhere recently that Ashley advised that there was still 27 million pounds still to pay off from the spendthrift days of the previous administration.

 

If correct, this will also have an effect on the value of the club, if a new buyer decides to make an offer acceptable to him.

 

Macca, serious question, are you aware that nearly every club, and certainly every top 4 club has debts of hundreds of millions? It is partly why they are where they are in the league table. Anybody who thinks a club can seriously challenge for the title without debts or huge external investment is living is cloud cuckook land? I believe you have said elsewhere you would rather support a mediocre NUFC that balances the books well than a NUFC that spends more than its incomings in order to put a realistic challenge in to challenge the top clubs? Whilst I accept that position, I don't think many people will agree with you, and I also believe that you are missing a point: with all the billionaires looking to get in on the action the value of Premiership clubs is now less related to its incomings than ever; it's all about the profile of the club and whether it is perceived as being big and successful. When Ashley took over the general consensus was that in order to make money in this sort of venture you need to invest first (accrueing debts if you will). If Ashley hasn't grasped this concept he is well at risk of being in for a shock, especially if this running the club like a business lark will result in us relegated a few years down the line as the likes of QPR will invest heavily to take over the Premiership places left by clubs that will have failed to react to the changes quickly enough. It's a rat race now, and you need to race along to be in with a chance of winning, whether you like it or not..

 

As this is the crux of your argument ill address this point. Would i be mistaken to think that these clubs were pretty stable and successful before they acquired thse massive debts? Chelsea are "in debt" to Roman, Man U have been left with Glaziers debt, Liverpool with H+G and Arsenal have the stadium debt having all been reasonably successful  for many years now.

 

Nufc on the other hand have a fair bit of debt topped off with huge wages without the same level of success OR stability, its hardly a fair comparison in my eyes.

 

Its as though that if Ashley hadnt paid off the debt and in fact added to it, as well as the "roll royce" wages you'd be happier and appeased irrespective of the future of the club.

 

To me what spurs and arsenal have done is what we should be doing, improving the quality of the squad whilst splashing out on big signings but still keeping financially stable, as well as bloodeing younger hungrier players.

 

 

 

You don't seem to be aware of the extent of the situation at all. Here's some reading material for you:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/davidbond/2294763/Credit-crunch-could-hurt-Premier-League-clubs.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2301797/Deloitte-football-finance-review-Club-by-club-Premier-League-analysis.html

 

As I expect there is every chance you will not be arsed to do some investigation into this issue as it doesn't tie in with what you want to believe allow me to make it easier to digest from you by putting a few quotes here:

 

total borrowings in the League had rocketed from £674 million in 2005 to £1.6 billion in 2006

=> does that make a 70m debt for Newcastle United in 2007 so extraordinary?

 

 

Leading the way are Manchester United, whose owners, the Glazer family, refinanced borrowings of £660 million in 2006 to help pay for the club in their £800 million takeover in May 2005. According to figures released in January, United's pretax profits for the 12 months to June 30, 2007, were £42.28 million, only slightly more than their £42 million interest payments.

 

At Liverpool, the controversial refinancing by estranged American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett has left the club and parent company, Kop Football Holdings, with £350 million of debt and annual interest payments of £30 million.

 

Arsenal announced last month that their net debt had increased to £307 million for the six months to the end of November 2007. Much of that is accounted for by a £260 million bond which was taken out to pay for the move from Highbury to the Emirates Stadium.

 

At the end of the 2006/07 season Chelsea had a net borrowing of £620 million, with a personal loan of £90 million from Roman Abramovich in that season alone

 

 

Regarding Aston Villa:

The club also recorded £63 million of debt in the summer of 2007.

 

Regarding Man City:

they are £103 million in debt.

 

West Ham have £142 million of debt

 

Boro were £85 million in debt at the end of the 2006/07 season

 

Regarding Fulham:

as of summer 2007 were £182 million in debt

 

I'm sure after seeing those figures you will agree that Newcastle United was not exactly in a unique debt situation here when compared to their (business) competitors? All in all it's all well saying it will all end up dramatically for those clubs involved and billionaires are cheating when they "buy" their way to titles, but ironically you could just as well claim the top clubs have so far "borrowed" their way to titles and trophies; care to explain to me how that is any less cheating than depending on external investment flat out?

[Offshore]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

 

Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently......

 

 

[magorific]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

 

Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently......

 

 

 

Ashley will

Something I was wondering - when Keegan took the job, did he make it clear enough that he wanted more or less full control over who comes in and out? Would he have taken the job in the first place if he knew what was coming?

 

Keegan was told that he had the final say.

 

So why the f*** are you slagging him off then?

[Guest hodsgod]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Exactly, Keegan has done it again. It was always going to happen, just a matter of time.

[magorific]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

 

Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently......

 

 

 

I'm told a statement from Ashley, which won't do him any favours, is imminent

[Neil]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a manager’s job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

 

Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently......

 

 

 

I'm told a statement from Ashley, which won't do him any favours, is imminent

 

Are you "sensing" a statement is imminent, David Craig style?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

To an outsider the appointment of KK could now be seen as a friendly face to keep fans happy while Ashley and co trim down the cost of running NUFC as much as possible, while hiking up ticket prices and introducing 3 year ticket purchase schemes. It could also explain the new set-up, to find players that have potential and quality but won't cost the earth in terms of spend and wages - in keeping with the policy to cut down on spending to increase profits. It has spectacularly backfired though because fans are not happy, the club's value is falling and Ashley's plans seem in tatters. The only sensible option now is to sell which is what I suggest will happen and may indeed have been the plan all along. The press were right after all that there were problems behind the scenes, perhaps they have been right all along about Ashley wanting to sell too. We'll know more in the coming weeks.

[Syrette]

Something I was wondering - when Keegan took the job, did he make it clear enough that he wanted more or less full control over who comes in and out? Would he have taken the job in the first place if he knew what was coming?

 

Keegan was told that he had the final say.

 

I know, but was he made aware of the structure that would be put in place? And if so, why did he take the job if he wasn't comfortable with it?

 

Or did the men upstairs not make it clear exactly how much control he would or wouldn't have?

[Offshore]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

 

Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently......

 

 

 

I'm told a statement from Ashley, which won't do him any favours, is imminent

 

He's going to release a statement putting himself in a bad light?

 

Ballsy if true.

[Robster]

 

 

Are you "sensing" a statement is imminent, David Craig style?

 

[NE5]

 

oh dear.

 

I can just see it now, Ashley playing hell with his cahoots for losing Keegan and not even phoning him to let him know what was going on

 

 

You do know that Keegan resigned, don't you?

 

Gordon Lee and Arthur Cox style ?

 

Yep.

 

if I were you, I'd keep up with the thread and finally get your head out of the sand.

 

 

[magorific]

 

So you honestly believe that Keegan has come out of this looking worse than Ashley?

 

 

 

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any.  Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way.

 

I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst.

 

Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to

You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan.

I'll say no more...

 

Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently......

 

 

 

I'm told a statement from Ashley, which won't do him any favours, is imminent

 

Are you "sensing" a statement is imminent, David Craig style?

 

No.

[NE5]

Darth

 

I seem to recall in an interview somewhere recently that Ashley advised that there was still 27 million pounds still to pay off from the spendthrift days of the previous administration.

 

If correct, this will also have an effect on the value of the club, if a new buyer decides to make an offer acceptable to him.

 

Macca, serious question, are you aware that nearly every club, and certainly every top 4 club has debts of hundreds of millions? It is partly why they are where they are in the league table. Anybody who thinks a club can seriously challenge for the title without debts or huge external investment is living is cloud cuckook land? I believe you have said elsewhere you would rather support a mediocre NUFC that balances the books well than a NUFC that spends more than its incomings in order to put a realistic challenge in to challenge the top clubs? Whilst I accept that position, I don't think many people will agree with you, and I also believe that you are missing a point: with all the billionaires looking to get in on the action the value of Premiership clubs is now less related to its incomings than ever; it's all about the profile of the club and whether it is perceived as being big and successful. When Ashley took over the general consensus was that in order to make money in this sort of venture you need to invest first (accrueing debts if you will). If Ashley hasn't grasped this concept he is well at risk of being in for a shock, especially if this running the club like a business lark will result in us relegated a few years down the line as the likes of QPR will invest heavily to take over the Premiership places left by clubs that will have failed to react to the changes quickly enough. It's a rat race now, and you need to race along to be in with a chance of winning, whether you like it or not..

 

As this is the crux of your argument ill address this point. Would i be mistaken to think that these clubs were pretty stable and successful before they acquired thse massive debts? Chelsea are "in debt" to Roman, Man U have been left with Glaziers debt, Liverpool with H+G and Arsenal have the stadium debt having all been reasonably successful  for many years now.

 

Nufc on the other hand have a fair bit of debt topped off with huge wages without the same level of success OR stability, its hardly a fair comparison in my eyes.

 

Its as though that if Ashley hadnt paid off the debt and in fact added to it, as well as the "roll royce" wages you'd be happier and appeased irrespective of the future of the club.

 

To me what spurs and arsenal have done is what we should be doing, improving the quality of the squad whilst splashing out on big signings but still keeping financially stable, as well as bloodeing younger hungrier players.

 

 

 

You don't seem to be aware of the extent of the situation at all. Here's some reading material for you:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/davidbond/2294763/Credit-crunch-could-hurt-Premier-League-clubs.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2301797/Deloitte-football-finance-review-Club-by-club-Premier-League-analysis.html

 

As I expect there is every chance you will not be arsed to do some investigation into this issue as it doesn't tie in with what you want to believe allow me to make it easier to digest from you by putting a few quotes here:

 

total borrowings in the League had rocketed from £674 million in 2005 to £1.6 billion in 2006

=> does that make a 70m debt for Newcastle United in 2007 so extraordinary?

 

 

Leading the way are Manchester United, whose owners, the Glazer family, refinanced borrowings of £660 million in 2006 to help pay for the club in their £800 million takeover in May 2005. According to figures released in January, United's pretax profits for the 12 months to June 30, 2007, were £42.28 million, only slightly more than their £42 million interest payments.

 

At Liverpool, the controversial refinancing by estranged American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett has left the club and parent company, Kop Football Holdings, with £350 million of debt and annual interest payments of £30 million.

 

Arsenal announced last month that their net debt had increased to £307 million for the six months to the end of November 2007. Much of that is accounted for by a £260 million bond which was taken out to pay for the move from Highbury to the Emirates Stadium.

 

At the end of the 2006/07 season Chelsea had a net borrowing of £620 million, with a personal loan of £90 million from Roman Abramovich in that season alone

 

 

Regarding Aston Villa:

The club also recorded £63 million of debt in the summer of 2007.

 

Regarding Man City:

they are £103 million in debt.

 

West Ham have £142 million of debt

 

Boro were £85 million in debt at the end of the 2006/07 season

 

Regarding Fulham:

as of summer 2007 were £182 million in debt

 

I'm sure after seeing those figures you will agree that Newcastle United was not exactly in a unique debt situation here when compared to their (business) competitors? All in all it's all well saying it will all end up dramatically for those clubs involved and billionaires are cheating when they "buy" their way to titles, but ironically you could just as well claim the top clubs have so far "borrowed" their way to titles and trophies; care to explain to me how that is any less cheating than depending on external investment flat out?

 

stand by for the usual culprits to argue with that

 

[Unbelievable]

To an outsider the appointment of KK could now be seen as a friendly face to keep fans happy while Ashley and co trim down the cost of running NUFC as much as possible, while hiking up ticket prices and introducing 3 year ticket purchase schemes. It could also explain the new set-up, to find players that have potential and quality but won't cost the earth in terms of spend and wages - in keeping with the policy to cut down on spending to increase profits. It has spectacularly backfired though because fans are not happy, the club's value is falling and Ashley's plans seem in tatters. The only sensible option now is to sell which is what I suggest will happen and may indeed have been the plan all along. The press were right after all that there were problems behind the scenes, perhaps they have been right all along about Ashley wanting to sell too. We'll know more in the coming weeks.

 

HTT, surely not!? But how about the majority of people on here with their rose tinted glasses who didn't accept any questionning of Ashley's motives even though it was at that point completely unclear what his plans with the club were and a perfectly healthy thing to do rather than just bend over in awe? A case of "the grass is greener" if ever I saw one, and that's not me condoning the previous owner before anybody starts.

[The Prophet]

Why all the petty arguments when there's clearly a happy-medium here.

 

To at least attempt to be successful you have to spend money, which in turn is more than likely to get you into debt. Spending money brings in better players with bigger wages, but without these players it is unlikely you will progress. The idea of breaking even isn't going to work, selling one player for big money to bring in enough is simply taking two steps forward only to take two back, you're back to square one.

 

Whatever gripes you had about fat Freddy you cannot deny he understood this concept. He always backed his managers whether it was for a cut-price purchase or a big money panic buy. Consequently we ended up with debts. Now Freddy wasn't the most popular chap as it was apparent he had more fingers in pies than a leper on a cookery course which only contributed to the debt we'd already accumulated from the stadium and investing in the playing staff. However although I personally didn't agree with this (and I don't particularly want to get drawn into an argument about it either), as a buisnessman it doesn't suprise me he wanted a cut at some stage, he wasn't just going to pour money into a bottomless pit was he?

 

Freddy wasn't a billionaire though. That's why we ended up in debt, he couldn't afford to carry on the way he was without getting into a real financial mess. Now that's what excites me about the prospect of a billionaire really willing to splash the cash. We could afford to this without any of these implications and therefore we could at least attempt to challenge the bigger clubs in the league.

 

Now, when Ashley took over I was hoping for a similar approach to the one mentioned above, unfortunately it doesn't look like Ashley is going to grasp the concept I was talking about. I'm not saying he won't spend money, but I don't think he will be attempting to sign up the bigger names for the bigger bucks. If your wanting to climb into the upper realms of the upper league this isn't the right attitude to take. It's only a matter of time before more and more clubs are owned by these wealthy men who are willing to pump their fortune into their teams providing better playing staff and therefore a better chance of success. If we continue along the road we are we're going to get left behind. What's the point in taking two steps forward when everyone else is taking five?

 

I'm not psychic, for all I know Ashley could begin to spend some real money at a later date, but so far all the indications point to a sensible approach to the recruitment process. He's also shown his inexperience in the game with debacle we're currently in. Now Ashley seems like a genuine bloke and I really hope he begins to see the bigger picture, but if he carries on the way he is we're going to get nothing more other from the odd year in the UEFA cup at best. If we want a real stab at success we need a billionaire who's going to take a gamble, someone with Freddy's attitude but with the bottomless pockets to back it up.