Mort - "not looking to make one-off signings to appease fans"

[Thespence]

Hold on, you mention that we should use the blueprint that Man U use, by spending big on big name players, but you mentined 6 players who arguably classified as the worlds best young talent.

 

They are actually classified as some of the worlds best players.

 

I tend to think of chaps like Macaulay Chrisantus, Josmer Altidore, Ransford Osei etc who are the Worlds best Young talent.

 

[Cajun]

 

well, we've done better than most clubs bar 4 so must have done better than most in that respect. Shouldn't really be necessary to repeat that again too, but you raised this angle on it again

 

 

 

It could have been a lot better, appointing Souness was the most ridiculous appointment I can remember, giving him £50,000,000 to spend was beyond ridiculous, it's bordering on insanity.

 

But he won trophies Mick (lets ignore the fact he was doing so badly as Blackburn when we got him that the Blackburn fans were almost literally pissing themselves we paid to take him off their hands).

 

Lets not forget there is no sure fire way to employ the correct manager (so that excuses employing a manager 90% of football fans including those who dont even follow Newcastle know will end in failure).

[Mick]

 

with good judgement by the manager, which to an extent the board can't control, they just have to back him as their appointment or sack him. You think you've seen mediocrity in recent years ? Well, you haven't. What you've seen is a club aiming for the top places and not succeeding. Real mediocrity is a club happy to drift along in no mans land. Especially when its a club like us who should be punching with the other big boys all the time.

 

Ruling out the buying of immediate first team players when you are struggling, and operating a "buy to sell " policy, is the policy of the 2nd rate clubs.

 

 

 

Who is doing that?

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Mark Hughes has done pretty well on a very strict budget by the board, tbf.

 

 

 

Considering the mess he was left by...............

[Mick]

 

But he won trophies Mick (lets ignore the fact he was doing so badly as Blackburn when we got him that the Blackburn fans were almost literally pissing themselves we paid to take him off their hands).

 

Lets not forget there is no sure fire way to employ the correct manager (so that excuses employing a manager 90% of football fans including those who dont even follow Newcastle know will end in failure).

 

Sorry, I forgot to forget, it probably didn't happen anyway and even if it did it'll be better than appointing football’s equivalent of Billy Smart.

[OzzieMandias]

I don't know what this argument is about, really.

 

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it. The failure to capitalise on the wonderful work done by Sir Bobby, coupled with a series of poor managerial appointments, led to a period of decline from which we only now have a chance of emerging because of a new broom in the boardroom and investment sufficient to clear some of the debts Shepherd had built up. He's history. And no one in their right mind is shedding any tears over the fact.

 

The new lot are still getting settled in. They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club. If it all means leaving behind knee-jerk, sell-a-season-ticket signings (or the hype of attempted signings such as Rooney or Ronaldinho) in favour of a sustained, intelligent and realistic period of squad-building and investment under the right manager, then that is good news. I'm more optimistic right now than I have been since just before we lost to Partizan, five long years ago.

 

It's dumb to rant and roar about the new lot before they've even got through their first proper transfer window. So far they're doing all right.

[Cajun]

I don't know what this argument is about, really.

 

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it. The failure to capitalise on the wonderful work done by Sir Bobby, coupled with a series of poor managerial appointments, led to a period of decline from which we only now have a chance of emerging because of a new broom in the boardroom and investment sufficient to clear some of the debts Shepherd had built up. He's history. And no one in their right mind is shedding any tears over the fact.

 

The new lot are still getting settled in. They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club. If it all means leaving behind knee-jerk, sell-a-season-ticket signings (or the hype of attempted signings such as Rooney or Ronaldinho) in favour of a sustained, intelligent and realistic period of squad-building and investment under the right manager, then that is good news. I'm more optimistic right now than I have been since just before we lost to Partizan, five long years ago.

 

It's dumb to rant and roar about the new lot before they've even got through their first proper transfer window. So far they're doing all right.

 

But we were all saying anyone else would instantly make us win the league.

 

 

 

 

Well we weren't but it doesn't help certain peoples arguments if we don't occasionaly say that people were.

[lovejoy]

I don't know what this argument is about, really.

 

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it. The failure to capitalise on the wonderful work done by Sir Bobby, coupled with a series of poor managerial appointments, led to a period of decline from which we only now have a chance of emerging because of a new broom in the boardroom and investment sufficient to clear some of the debts Shepherd had built up. He's history. And no one in their right mind is shedding any tears over the fact.

 

The new lot are still getting settled in. They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club. If it all means leaving behind knee-jerk, sell-a-season-ticket signings (or the hype of attempted signings such as Rooney or Ronaldinho) in favour of a sustained, intelligent and realistic period of squad-building and investment under the right manager, then that is good news. I'm more optimistic right now than I have been since just before we lost to Partizan, five long years ago.

 

It's dumb to rant and roar about the new lot before they've even got through their first proper transfer window. So far they're doing all right.

 

good post.

 

agree with all of that

[Thespence]

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players  have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle.  We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21  capatian.  Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

[Mr Logic]

I don't know what this argument is about, really.

 

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it. The failure to capitalise on the wonderful work done by Sir Bobby, coupled with a series of poor managerial appointments, led to a period of decline from which we only now have a chance of emerging because of a new broom in the boardroom and investment sufficient to clear some of the debts Shepherd had built up. He's history. And no one in their right mind is shedding any tears over the fact.

 

The new lot are still getting settled in. They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club. If it all means leaving behind knee-jerk, sell-a-season-ticket signings (or the hype of attempted signings such as Rooney or Ronaldinho) in favour of a sustained, intelligent and realistic period of squad-building and investment under the right manager, then that is good news. I'm more optimistic right now than I have been since just before we lost to Partizan, five long years ago.

 

It's dumb to rant and roar about the new lot before they've even got through their first proper transfer window. So far they're doing all right.

 

[NE5]

I don't know what this argument is about, really.

 

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it. The failure to capitalise on the wonderful work done by Sir Bobby, coupled with a series of poor managerial appointments, led to a period of decline from which we only now have a chance of emerging because of a new broom in the boardroom and investment sufficient to clear some of the debts Shepherd had built up. He's history. And no one in their right mind is shedding any tears over the fact.

 

The new lot are still getting settled in. They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club. If it all means leaving behind knee-jerk, sell-a-season-ticket signings (or the hype of attempted signings such as Rooney or Ronaldinho) in favour of a sustained, intelligent and realistic period of squad-building and investment under the right manager, then that is good news. I'm more optimistic right now than I have been since just before we lost to Partizan, five long years ago.

 

It's dumb to rant and roar about the new lot before they've even got through their first proper transfer window. So far they're doing all right.

 

good post.

 

agree with all of that

 

the last lot had their chance and fluffed it  ?

 

Previously I thought you knew your stuff mate.

 

Respect for your opinions disintegrated after that I'm afraid.

 

 

[NE5]

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players  have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle.  We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21  capatian.  Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

[Syrette]

Will you ever criticise the old board, NE5?

[NE5]

Will you ever criticise the old board, NE5?

 

give it a rest man. If you can't see constructive comments I can't help you

 

 

[fredbob]

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle. We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21 capatian. Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

The manner of the decline would probably not be so much of an issue had it occured in more reasonable circumstances, but with the supposed goings on during the SBR period (which can be only attributed to Shepherd) and the subsequent sacking and replacment pushed things too far.

 

The thing is, is that you openely acknowledge how much of a mess we are, and you attribute that all to the new board who have been here for less than ayear, people who correctly or incorrectly criticize the old board have the benefit of hindsight from 15 years of stewardship to formulate there opinion and you cant handle that, i have no idea why-well i do but thats a completely different matter

 

How far as a club have we fallen since we reached those great heigths of CL qual? How much money would it take to get us back there? The thing you cant acknowledge and i dont know why, is that the old boad was ENTIRELY responsible for how far we have fallen. Any amount of cash you estimate to get us back there, be it £100m, or £200m (there are threads which you do support these estimates), that is your estimate of how much the last board would of needed to get us back as well, and that is without the debt cleared. #

 

£100-200m isnt a small amount of cash, and if you believe that that is the correct estimate then you have to admit that that is how far the old board took us, under no circumstances is that acceptable, why should it be? Becasue "at least they showed there ambition" Well, if the club was managed properly in the first place we shouldnt need that £100-200m to catch up in the first place.

 

 

[Mr Logic]

I don't know what this argument is about, really.

 

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it. The failure to capitalise on the wonderful work done by Sir Bobby, coupled with a series of poor managerial appointments, led to a period of decline from which we only now have a chance of emerging because of a new broom in the boardroom and investment sufficient to clear some of the debts Shepherd had built up. He's history. And no one in their right mind is shedding any tears over the fact.

 

The new lot are still getting settled in. They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club. If it all means leaving behind knee-jerk, sell-a-season-ticket signings (or the hype of attempted signings such as Rooney or Ronaldinho) in favour of a sustained, intelligent and realistic period of squad-building and investment under the right manager, then that is good news. I'm more optimistic right now than I have been since just before we lost to Partizan, five long years ago.

 

It's dumb to rant and roar about the new lot before they've even got through their first proper transfer window. So far they're doing all right.

 

good post.

 

agree with all of that

 

the last lot had their chance and fluffed it  ?

 

Previously I thought you knew your stuff mate.

 

Respect for your opinions disintegrated after that I'm afraid.

 

 

 

NE5, in spite of your oft repeated list of achievements attributable to the previous board (which are undeniable) there were also some pretty bad decisions. Latterly they seemed to be going from bad to worse, the club was definitely in decline.

 

The fact Shepherd is banned from the ground surely tells its own story about what the new incumbents unearthed as they assessed the position. It must at least give one pause for thought. There have been statements/quotes that the club was on the brink, (though I'm not about to go and find them so I'll add the caveat iirc).

 

Credit where credit is due, but when I take off those rose tinted specs I can see there were a fair few negatives too and they had been coming thick and fast. I have to say in the final analyses that 'the last lot did fluff it' is a fairly accurate assessment.

 

 

[NE5]

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players  have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle.  We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21  capatian.  Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

The manner of the decline would probably not be so much of an issue had it occured in more reasonable circumstances, but with the supposed goings on during the SBR period (which can be only attributed to Shepherd) and the subsequent sacking and replacment pushed things too far.

 

The thing is, is that you openely acknowledge how much of a mess we are, and you attribute that all to the new board who have been here for less than ayear, people who correctly or incorrectly criticize the old board have the benefit of hindsight to formulate there opinion and you cant handle that, i have no idea why-well i do but thats a completely different matter

 

How far as a club have we fallen since we reached those great heigths of CL qual? How much money would it take to get us back there? The thing you cant acknowledge and i dont know why, is that the old boad was ENTIRELY responsible for how far we have fallen. Any amount of cash you estimate to get us back there, be it £100m, or £200m (there are threads which you do support these estimates), that is your estimate of how much the last board would of needed to get us back as well, and that is without the debt cleared. #

 

That is the sum total of how far the old board "failed", there position was completely unteneable.

 

 

 

you've no idea how they found the club have you, in spite of me telling you ?

 

Give it a rest ffs

 

 

[fredbob]

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players  have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle.  We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21  capatian.  Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

The manner of the decline would probably not be so much of an issue had it occured in more reasonable circumstances, but with the supposed goings on during the SBR period (which can be only attributed to Shepherd) and the subsequent sacking and replacment pushed things too far.

 

The thing is, is that you openely acknowledge how much of a mess we are, and you attribute that all to the new board who have been here for less than ayear, people who correctly or incorrectly criticize the old board have the benefit of hindsight to formulate there opinion and you cant handle that, i have no idea why-well i do but thats a completely different matter

 

How far as a club have we fallen since we reached those great heigths of CL qual? How much money would it take to get us back there? The thing you cant acknowledge and i dont know why, is that the old boad was ENTIRELY responsible for how far we have fallen. Any amount of cash you estimate to get us back there, be it £100m, or £200m (there are threads which you do support these estimates), that is your estimate of how much the last board would of needed to get us back as well, and that is without the debt cleared. #

 

That is the sum total of how far the old board "failed", there position was completely unteneable.

 

 

 

you've no idea how they found the club have you, in spite of me telling you ?

 

Give it a rest ffs

 

 

 

That is the respones of a man who has no answer.

 

To reiterate, yes im acutely aware of the situation we were in pre92, but by that argument as long as we are in a better position to where they found us, then that is success in your book.

 

 

[Cajun]

Will you ever criticise the old board, NE5?

 

give it a rest man. If you can't see constructive comments I can't help you

 

 

 

If you aren't Shepherd you really need to come out of the closet!

 

I wouldn't stick up for my own mother the way you stick up for Shep!

[NE5]

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players  have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle.  We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21  capatian.  Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

The manner of the decline would probably not be so much of an issue had it occured in more reasonable circumstances, but with the supposed goings on during the SBR period (which can be only attributed to Shepherd) and the subsequent sacking and replacment pushed things too far.

 

The thing is, is that you openely acknowledge how much of a mess we are, and you attribute that all to the new board who have been here for less than ayear, people who correctly or incorrectly criticize the old board have the benefit of hindsight to formulate there opinion and you cant handle that, i have no idea why-well i do but thats a completely different matter

 

How far as a club have we fallen since we reached those great heigths of CL qual? How much money would it take to get us back there? The thing you cant acknowledge and i dont know why, is that the old boad was ENTIRELY responsible for how far we have fallen. Any amount of cash you estimate to get us back there, be it £100m, or £200m (there are threads which you do support these estimates), that is your estimate of how much the last board would of needed to get us back as well, and that is without the debt cleared. #

 

That is the sum total of how far the old board "failed", there position was completely unteneable.

 

 

 

you've no idea how they found the club have you, in spite of me telling you ?

 

Give it a rest ffs

 

 

 

That is the respones of a man who has no answer.

 

To reiterate, yes im acutely aware of the situation we were in pre92, but by that argument as long as we are in a better position to where they found us, then that is success in your book.

 

 

I've got an answer alright, I've answered it a thousand times at least .

 

I fail to see what your problem is, when you talk about "success" with the board who gave us the most "success" in 5 decades, but I suppose thats your problem to work out and not mine

 

 

[NE5]

Will you ever criticise the old board, NE5?

 

give it a rest man. If you can't see constructive comments I can't help you

 

 

 

If you aren't Shepherd you really need to come out of the closet!

 

I wouldn't stick up for my own mother the way you stick up for Shep!

 

I'm just quoting facts but I didn't he'd hurt you so badly  mackems.gif

[Cajun]

Did the old board to anything wrong NE5?

 

Where do you think we would be in 10 years if Shepherd never left (ie Ashley never came in)?

 

Do you think we were in a good state when Shepherd left?

 

I fully expect you to ignore these questions but everyone else does well and will continue to laugh at you.

[NE5]

Did the old board to anything wrong NE5?

 

Where do you think we would be in 10 years if Shepherd never left (ie Ashley never came in)?

 

Do you think we were in a good state when Shepherd left?

 

I fully expect you to ignore these questions but everyone else does well and will continue to laugh at you.

 

I've absolutely no idea. And I;ve no idea where we would be, but I know we would have been in the old 3rd division and declared officallly bankrupt if not for the Halls and Shepherd.

 

I don't care about the opinions of those who have seen very little of the club and don't base opinions on facts anyway.

 

Meanwhile, I myself have a fantastic laugh at those who think a board that ran a club that qualified for the Champions League and qualified for europe more than everyone but 4 clubs is a shite board. Especially when their replacements are "superior" despite coming nowhere near the same, yet.

 

Still it takes all sorts doesn't it  mackems.gif

 

 

[fredbob]

Hold on, you mention that we should use the blueprint that Man U use, by spending big on big name players, but you mentined 6 players who arguably classified as the worlds best young talent.

 

They are actually classified as some of the worlds best players.

 

I tend to think of chaps like Macaulay Chrisantus, Josmer Altidore, Ransford Osei etc who are the Worlds best Young talent.

 

 

Hold on, Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson and rooney were some of the worlds best players when they were signed??

 

News to me.

 

 

[Cajun]

There is a shock

 

You have inspired me, Amady Faye was a fantastic signing for the club and anyone who says anything different I will point out that when we were in the old 3rd division we had someone who played for us who was worse.

 

Was he a bad player? When we were in the old 3rd division we had worse.

 

Can I admit he at least had some downsides to his game? When we were in the old 3rd division we had worse.

 

Will I at least acknowledge he wasn't a world class player, infact he wasnt the best ever player to play in his position? When we were in the old 3rd division we had worse.

 

 

 

Fucking pathetic