Have we been punching above our weight?

[UV]

For the benefit of Jon & Ozzie:

 

as far as i can work out since the end of last season we've spent less than a million net on transfers. there's a question mark over much Emre went for, the BBC say as much as £8m and others as say we recouped what we paid out (£3.8m). if we've received anything more than £5m then we've actually made a profit on transfers since Ashley's arrived.

 

if you consider we were making a £6m profit before player trading and amortisation (2006 plc results) before Ashley came in, plus the fact we're saving the same amount from not paying back loans, and the fact we're receiving £18m more on Premiership TV money than we did before Ashley, there should be, assuming costs have remained around the same level, somewhere around £30m for transfers before you even talk about Ashley putting his hand in his own billionaire's pocket. there's also the fact we could spend next summer's tv money if we want to be ambitious, which is what many clubs did last summer (61% higher than the amount of transfer fees paid the summer before). the fact we've spent less than a million is poor. tho again, there's still 5 weeks for this to change, so here's hoping.

 

You have to filter in wages, but yes that's exactly right. We're not paupers as a club, even without European football we still have the 6th highest turnover in the league. Noone is asking Ashley for a handout here, just for him to reinvest what the club makes back into the club.

 

I don't agree with this resigned attitude that there necessarily has to be some kind of consolidation or years of mediocrity before we can then push on. That's not to say that if we show some ambition and don't immediately get back into the CL I'll be shouting Ashley out. Trying and failing is acceptable. Not trying to the limit of our ability is not.

 

Man City were in a far far worse state squad wise last year than we are now. Thaksin spent a fair amount, but it wasn't extortionate, and he has still spent nothing more than he will expect to recoup in the future. I keep hearing that it's different now because of all these new Billionaire owners, but apart from Abramovich, none of these new billionaire owners are footballing philanthropists. They're not doing it for the love of the game. They expect to make money at the end of the day, and even without success you can bet that they will not lose any of their own money in the process. Even Abramovich has now got Chelsea in a position where he could conceivably make back the money he's put in within 5 to 10 years if Chelsea stay where they currently are.

 

I'm desperate for us to not spend any money, fail to be successful, and ultimately be proved "right". That's what I really want.

[mrmojorisin75]

For the benefit of Jon & Ozzie:

 

as far as i can work out since the end of last season we've spent less than a million net on transfers. there's a question mark over much Emre went for, the BBC say as much as £8m and others as say we recouped what we paid out (£3.8m). if we've received anything more than £5m then we've actually made a profit on transfers since Ashley's arrived.

 

if you consider we were making a £6m profit before player trading and amortisation (2006 plc results) before Ashley came in, plus the fact we're saving the same amount from not paying back loans, and the fact we're receiving £18m more on Premiership TV money than we did before Ashley, there should be, assuming costs have remained around the same level, somewhere around £30m for transfers before you even talk about Ashley putting his hand in his own billionaire's pocket. there's also the fact we could spend next summer's tv money if we want to be ambitious, which is what many clubs did last summer (61% higher than the amount of transfer fees paid the summer before). the fact we've spent less than a million is poor. tho again, there's still 5 weeks for this to change, so here's hoping.

 

You have to filter in wages, but yes that's exactly right. We're not paupers as a club, even without European football we still have the 6th highest turnover in the league. Noone is asking Ashley for a handout here, just for him to reinvest what the club makes back into the club.

 

I don't agree with this resigned attitude that there necessarily has to be some kind of consolidation or years of mediocrity before we can then push on. That's not to say that if we show some ambition and don't immediately get back into the CL I'll be shouting Ashley out. Trying and failing is acceptable. Not trying to the limit of our ability is not.

 

Man City were in a far far worse state squad wise last year than we are now. Thaksin spent a fair amount, but it wasn't extortionate, and he has still spent nothing more than he will expect to recoup in the future. I keep hearing that it's different now because of all these new Billionaire owners, but apart from Abramovich, none of these new billionaire owners are footballing philanthropists. They're not doing it for the love of the game. They expect to make money at the end of the day, and even without success you can bet that they will not lose any of their own money in the process. Even Abramovich has now got Chelsea in a position where he could conceivably make back the money he's put in within 5 to 10 years if Chelsea stay where they currently are.

 

I'm desperate for us to not spend any money, fail to be successful, and ultimately be proved "right". That's what I really want.

 

[Mick]

 

i'll join in with the general back slapping at this post and concur that upward momentum is the goal and it doesn't have to be meteoric, but i'd like to point out the following with regards ashleys spending/paying off the debt and so on:

 

think it's johnnypd who keeps pointing out about TV money and he's right - what is it now, a guaranteed 30-40m a year?  maybe even 50m?  i'm not sure but i know it's a fucksite more than the 10m net we spent on players last year and the 2-3m so far this year

 

regardless of whatever ashleys done with the debt & buying the club he shouldn't be allowed to get away with not investing this cash (i'll totally ignore the ST sales money or any other cash in this scenario); lets be on the conservative side and say 20m for each of the last two seasons and he's invested a max of 15m so far

 

that is not good enough, and i can't understand why anyone would accept it as good enough for our club...nobody is asking for 100m to be spent on the team tomorrow but some of this cash needs to be invested in the team, simple as that

 

anyone got a comeback to that?  'cause i'd like to hear it

I doubt many will disagree with much of that, my way of thinking is that I would like the club to be debt free so that it can stand on its own two feet and allow those who work within the club to make decisions without having to go to the owner with a begging bowl every time we need to spend money.  We know that Ashley has paid off something like £77 million in debt so we probably still have a few million in debt which we've carried for a while.  If we do get £40 million from Sky then I personally hope we use it to pay off the remainder of the debt and use the balance to buy players and keep a balanced budget and live within our means.

 

If we are debt free and Ashley doesn't want to make money out of the club then we should have more money to spend than ever before and if the right people are spending the money on the right players then we should really be able to take off on the pitch.

[Cajun]

I honestly believe if Ashley did splash out and we did get back to where we were many years ago at least one person would be a little disappointed.

 

Thats what happens when you get so wound up about a certain aspect and it starts to take over everything you ever have to say about the club.

 

I don't remember one person claiming new owners would instantly right all the wrongs at the club although that is often claimed with nothing to back it up, but some people seem to have got themselves into a difficult position where if the club did become a success now they would have to admit they were wrong which would kill them

[Mick]

I honestly believe if Ashley did splash out and we did get back to where we were many years ago at least one person would be a little disappointed.

 

Thats what happens when you get so wound up about a certain aspect and it starts to take over everything you ever have to say about the club.

 

I don't remember one person claiming new owners would instantly right all the wrongs at the club although that is often claimed with nothing to back it up, but some people seem to have got themselves into a difficult position where if the club did become a success now they would have to admit they were wrong which would kill them

 

It seems some want and expect instant results on and off the pitch even though we've only done that once and even then we couldn't sustain it.  The daft thing is that our past limited success (we won nothing) has been paid for by Ashley yet others are given the credit. Ashley paid for the stadium expansion plus £30-40 million which was spent on players.  He'll probably now get blamed for buying Luque as he's paid for him.  

[Cajun]

Hadn't thought of it like that.

 

To be fair the old board took some risks, spent some big money and did improve us a hell of a lot. They got us into the top competition in Europe and were prepared to back managers the majority of the time to get us some very good players in.

 

On the other hand they have to take the blame for where we are now and a lot of the stuff that has had to be sorted out since Ashley bought the club. Its all well in good spending vast amounts to get players in then paying them silly wages but it couldn't go on forever. Ok Ashley is a billionaire so he could probably afford to do this but then I believe he has bought us as a business so wont be prepared to do that.

 

So far we have held back and it has been a little disappointing, obviously Ashley has had a lot to sort out/money to clear but in all honesty I would have expected a little more in the players brought in. Then I have no idea what is really happening behind the scenes (like most) and the Modric bid shows we are willing when they think its worth it.

 

I think we will have a better idea of what we are looking at when the transfer window closes (although I still think we won't really know for a couple of years).

 

I said at the time but as soon as "billionaire" was mentioned some were expecting us to be the new Chelsea and this has affected the way they think hence the amount of "OMG we are fucked like!!!11" post we get every 5 minutes. The press doesn't help either, its just a shame when you see intelligent people who will rightfully dismiss media bullshit most of the time use it to defend their agendas.

[UV]

I honestly believe if Ashley did splash out and we did get back to where we were many years ago at least one person would be a little disappointed.

 

Thats what happens when you get so wound up about a certain aspect and it starts to take over everything you ever have to say about the club.

 

Thanks for the benefit of your experience.

 

It seems some want and expect instant results on and off the pitch even though we've only done that once and even then we couldn't sustain it.  The daft thing is that our past limited success (we won nothing) has been paid for by Ashley yet others are given the credit. Ashley paid for the stadium expansion plus £30-40 million which was spent on players.  He'll probably now get blamed for buying Luque as he's paid for him. 

 

Well done Mike for those FA cups in the 50's   

 

 

If the club hadn't had the debts it would have been worth more like £200m than £130m, and the money would have gone to the Halls & Shepherd instead of the banks. So the Halls & Shepherd paid for the stadium expansion & player debts in reduced sale value.

[Cajun]

No worries.

[Mick]

 

It seems some want and expect instant results on and off the pitch even though we've only done that once and even then we couldn't sustain it.  The daft thing is that our past limited success (we won nothing) has been paid for by Ashley yet others are given the credit. Ashley paid for the stadium expansion plus £30-40 million which was spent on players.  He'll probably now get blamed for buying Luque as he's paid for him.  

 

Well done Mike for those FA cups in the 50's   

 

I think you're wrong and you'll find that we won nothing before 1992. 

[NE5]

...and will this window be the start of the comedown?

 

Furthermore are people ready to accept that the club will now go through a 2/3 season rationalising process?

 

you know the answer to this, I suspect !!!!!

 

 

[NE5]

I think it's the complete opposite, we had bunched below our weight for decades, then realised the enormous potential of the club for a few years, and now seemingly heading back to inferiority complexes and lack of ambition.

 

Of course we just need our billionaire owner to release the moths from that wallet of his and all this will change.

 

correct

 

 

[NE5]

I think it's the complete opposite, we had bunched below our weight for decades, then realised the enormous potential of the club for a few years, and now seemingly heading back to inferiority complexes and lack of ambition.

 

Of course we just need our billionaire owner to release the moths from that wallet of his and all this will change.

 

I remember quiet summers with the old board too, clearly you've just happened to forget about that.

 

I can't believe I'm responding to this poster but anyway, FFS I'm not a Shepherd apologist, that old board got it wrong often  most notably the  "we'll keep our powder dry" summer. But  however much you hate them, they undeniably backed their manager's in the transfer market and tried to act like a big club, their hearts were in the right place most of the time, despite their gaffs most notably towards the end of the reign when their time was clearly up and we needed a change.

 

But Ashley's proved nowt so far, absolutely nowt, until he starts providing the funds to help the manager improve the team on the pitch I'll remain sceptical.

 

 

[NE5]

I don't think we've been punching above our weight, no.

 

The problem for us is though, that Spurs, Everton & Aston Villa are finally starting to punch their own weight in the Premiership, and Man City, Portsmouth & Blackburn are punching well above theirs.

 

without a shadow of doubt the best analysis so far

 

with the addendum that we're headed towards taking the place of the aforementioned clubs and punching below our weight, we'd better be careful 'cause look how long it took them to drag themselves back

 

Spurs, Everton and Villa ? ALL THREE of those clubs have had genuine real trophy winning success in the last 40 years since we did anything at all, and ALL THREE of those clubs were above us for the vast majority of this time. Its only recent history which has seen us get above those clubs for most of the time. I like some of your posts mate, but you have this the wrong way round I'm afraid.

 

 

[NE5]

that old board got it wrong often  most notably the  "we'll keep our powder dry" summer. But  however much you hate them, they undeniably backed their manager's in the transfer market

 

That's an oxymoron.

 

Don't let your petty fued with NE5 cloud your view here Ozzie. Highlighting a small part of my text, where I maybe could have added a word like "largely" for clarity does not prove my point wrong. Only a complete idiot would suggest that the old board did not back their managers in the transfer market. Which is probably why our debts were so large.

 

That's an ozziemoron.

 

Aye they backed their managers in the transfer market except when they didn't back their managers in the transfer market – such as in the summer of our last chance at the CL before the drawbridge got pulled up -- and you'd have to be stupid or a liar to argue otherwise.

 

do you think they should have waited until the summer to buy woodgate instead of the January ? Please tell us why, if you do.

[Guest Phil K]

We have a fan base the equal of any bar Man U - and even there, most are there because of the trophies, NOT loyalty.

We have been kept down for decades because of awful boards. Even when we got a good one and good management, it couldn't survive a slight downturn, and a dreadful chairman with good intentions (Shepherd) took us back to the basement due to his abysmal management sense.

Punching "above our weight" ?????

That has to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard in recent years.

The OPPOSITE applies.

[NE5]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

i agree with some of that. about how foundations need to be put in place otherwise any kind of success will not be sustained (see decline after keegan and robson's tenures).

 

however i disagree with the bit about the loan. it was well known that large portions of the debt had to be repaid quickly if the club changed hands as the shepherds and halls had made an agreement with the lenders. so paying off the loans should be considered part of Ashley's purchase price, he didn't do it out of the kindness of his heart. though it is unknown if the loan has been 'paid off' or simply shifted elsewhere.

 

it is good news in the long-term sense that if ashley sells us, we won't be saddled with debts. however it means fuck all to us supporters in the short to medium-term if the money saved each year is not ploughed back into transfer funds. as it stood the loan repayments were £6.3m per year, so not a huge amount anyway. so far we've not seen any of this. and if he is a multi-billionaire, then yes, i would expect him to put some of his own funds in for transfers. you talk about thaksin at city but he is not as rich as ashley yet has no problems sanctioning big bids. as it stands we've spent something like £150,000 net since the end of last season which is pretty pathetic. i'm sure this will improve before sept 1st but so far that's all we have to go on and as others have said, the jury is still out on mike ashley, for all shepherd's major faults, ashley's done nowt in comparison. now we have a proven manager with a track record in spending well we should be backing him with tens of millions.

 

I agree with parts of it too, but not all. People talk about "building on good foundations", well I know people are going to say I'm harping on about the old board again or defending them, but its an unvoidable fact that if they did "build on soft foundations", then the reason for that is its because when they took over the club, there wasn't any. So they tried to get to the top quickly, as the club was sinking, and sinking fast, and NOBODY who supported the club at this time can deny it, if they do then they are fools.  It worked too. So what did people want them to do ? Nobody complained at the time ?

 

Another point is that if Keegan had stayed at the club and we had won a trophy or two, those foundations would now be in place anyway. Doing it that way, whats the problem with it ?

 

Its now that counts. Its all well and good building for the future, but the best youngsters will still sign for the top clubs NOW. Thats always been the case. I still say Ashley doesn't understand football, and if he doesn't learn fast we will be further away than ever, especially if Keegan leaves because I think he'll do a good job with the tools they give him, but if we don't tap his potential while we have him again its a bad mistake.

 

We know Ashley has paid off the stadium etc, which is great, but he's not gave us the money, he's added to his investment. Why does this need to be explained all the time ?

 

Like it or not, football is all about money, and being prepared to speculate, without it you get nowhere.

 

 

[NE5]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

i'll join in with the general back slapping at this post and concur that upward momentum is the goal and it doesn't have to be meteoric, but i'd like to point out the following with regards ashleys spending/paying off the debt and so on:

 

think it's johnnypd who keeps pointing out about TV money and he's right - what is it now, a guaranteed 30-40m a year?  maybe even 50m?  i'm not sure but i know it's a fucksite more than the 10m net we spent on players last year and the 2-3m so far this year

 

regardless of whatever ashleys done with the debt & buying the club he shouldn't be allowed to get away with not investing this cash (i'll totally ignore the ST sales money or any other cash in this scenario); lets be on the conservative side and say 20m for each of the last two seasons and he's invested a max of 15m so far

 

that is not good enough, and i can't understand why anyone would accept it as good enough for our club...nobody is asking for 100m to be spent on the team tomorrow but some of this cash needs to be invested in the team, simple as that

 

anyone got a comeback to that?  'cause i'd like to hear it

 

No, I haven't. There is no answer possible, because its true. We shouldn't be looking to match expenditure of clubs like pompey an Blackburn, all the clubs are getting this money, so we should still be doing more. Much more.

 

 

[NE5]

I honestly believe if Ashley did splash out and we did get back to where we were many years ago at least one person would be a little disappointed.

 

Thats what happens when you get so wound up about a certain aspect and it starts to take over everything you ever have to say about the club.

 

I don't remember one person claiming new owners would instantly right all the wrongs at the club although that is often claimed with nothing to back it up, but some people seem to have got themselves into a difficult position where if the club did become a success now they would have to admit they were wrong which would kill them

 

of course, have YOU paid for the next 3 years ?

 

 

[merlin]

I don't think we've been punching above our weight, no.

 

The problem for us is though, that Spurs, Everton & Aston Villa are finally starting to punch their own weight in the Premiership, and Man City, Portsmouth & Blackburn are punching well above theirs.

 

without a shadow of doubt the best analysis so far

 

with the addendum that we're headed towards taking the place of the aforementioned clubs and punching below our weight, we'd better be careful 'cause look how long it took them to drag themselves back

 

Spurs, Everton and Villa ? ALL THREE of those clubs have had genuine real trophy winning success in the last 40 years since we did anything at all, and ALL THREE of those clubs were above us for the vast majority of this time. Its only recent history which has seen us get above those clubs for most of the time. I like some of your posts mate, but you have this the wrong way round I'm afraid.

 

 

 

This is true, but NONE of those clubs have matched us for support since SJP was redeveloped after the club was taken over by SJH in the early 90s - and NONE of them would match us now IF we got back into the Top 4 and somehow increased the size of SJP OR built another stadium...

[Parky]

We have a fan base the equal of any bar Man U - and even there, most are there because of the trophies, NOT loyalty.

We have been kept down for decades because of awful boards. Even when we got a good one and good management, it couldn't survive a slight downturn, and a dreadful chairman with good intentions (Shepherd) took us back to the basement due to his abysmal management sense.

Punching "above our weight" ?????

That has to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard in recent years.

The OPPOSITE applies.

 

It's not a statement it's a question. Look:?????

[NE5]

I don't think we've been punching above our weight, no.

 

The problem for us is though, that Spurs, Everton & Aston Villa are finally starting to punch their own weight in the Premiership, and Man City, Portsmouth & Blackburn are punching well above theirs.

 

without a shadow of doubt the best analysis so far

 

with the addendum that we're headed towards taking the place of the aforementioned clubs and punching below our weight, we'd better be careful 'cause look how long it took them to drag themselves back

 

Spurs, Everton and Villa ? ALL THREE of those clubs have had genuine real trophy winning success in the last 40 years since we did anything at all, and ALL THREE of those clubs were above us for the vast majority of this time. Its only recent history which has seen us get above those clubs for most of the time. I like some of your posts mate, but you have this the wrong way round I'm afraid.

 

 

 

This is true, but NONE of those clubs have matched us for support since SJP was redeveloped after the club was taken over by SJH in the early 90s - and NONE of them would match us now IF we got back into the Top 4 and somehow increased the size of SJP OR built another stadium...

 

IF being the operative word. I am abviously aware like yourself that the old board managed to finally get the ground re-developed after 80 years of bungling by previous regimes. Those clubs have only fallen further behind us - in ground capacity terms - since expanding the stadium 10 years ago, a move contributing hugely to our "debts" that many people slate, presumably because they think we ought to have kept the stadium at a 36,000 capacity.

 

I've said before, the club should have moved. It is the old boards biggest mistake. When the Castle Leazes project fell through, they should have moved elsewhere. The council would have caved in when they realised the club meant what they said and would pull the club out of the city centre. I know some people say they simply wouldn't have been given planning permission to build anywhere else, but thats the whole point. They should have said "you will give us planning permission or we will move out of the city".

 

I would put progress before tradition, personally. I would love the club to have a stadium like the Millenium in Cardiff.

 

 

[WhatTheFunk]

I don't think we've been punching above our weight, no.

 

The problem for us is though, that Spurs, Everton & Aston Villa are finally starting to punch their own weight in the Premiership, and Man City, Portsmouth & Blackburn are punching well above theirs.

 

without a shadow of doubt the best analysis so far

 

with the addendum that we're headed towards taking the place of the aforementioned clubs and punching below our weight, we'd better be careful 'cause look how long it took them to drag themselves back

 

Spurs, Everton and Villa ? ALL THREE of those clubs have had genuine real trophy winning success in the last 40 years since we did anything at all, and ALL THREE of those clubs were above us for the vast majority of this time. Its only recent history which has seen us get above those clubs for most of the time. I like some of your posts mate, but you have this the wrong way round I'm afraid.

 

 

 

This is true, but NONE of those clubs have matched us for support since SJP was redeveloped after the club was taken over by SJH in the early 90s - and NONE of them would match us now IF we got back into the Top 4 and somehow increased the size of SJP OR built another stadium...

 

IF being the operative word. I am abviously aware like yourself that the old board managed to finally get the ground re-developed after 80 years of bungling by previous regimes. Those clubs have only fallen further behind us - in ground capacity terms - since expanding the stadium 10 years ago, a move contributing hugely to our "debts" that many people slate, presumably because they think we ought to have kept the stadium at a 36,000 capacity.

 

I've said before, the club should have moved. It is the old boards biggest mistake. When the Castle Leazes project fell through, they should have moved elsewhere. The council would have caved in when they realised the club meant what they said and would pull the club out of the city centre. I know some people say they simply wouldn't have been given planning permission to build anywhere else, but thats the whole point. They should have said "you will give us planning permission or we will move out of the city".

 

I would put progress before tradition, personally. I would love the club to have a stadium like the Millenium in Cardiff.

 

 

 

  absolutely

[OzzieMandias]

I honestly believe if Ashley did splash out and we did get back to where we were many years ago at least one person would be a little disappointed.

 

Thats what happens when you get so wound up about a certain aspect and it starts to take over everything you ever have to say about the club.

 

I don't remember one person claiming new owners would instantly right all the wrongs at the club although that is often claimed with nothing to back it up, but some people seem to have got themselves into a difficult position where if the club did become a success now they would have to admit they were wrong which would kill them

 

It seems some want and expect instant results on and off the pitch even though we've only done that once and even then we couldn't sustain it.  The daft thing is that our past limited success (we won nothing) has been paid for by Ashley yet others are given the credit. Ashley paid for the stadium expansion plus £30-40 million which was spent on players.  He'll probably now get blamed for buying Luque as he's paid for him.  

 

Aye, well obviously the correct thing for Ashley to do is buy loads of players the business can't afford (it doesn't matter if they're crap or not because the spend alone will say "ambition") and then eventually sell off to someone richer who will pay for his profligacy. There aren't many of those, of course. Maybe Bill Gates or the Sultan of Brunei will develop an interest in football.

[merlin]

I don't think we've been punching above our weight, no.

 

The problem for us is though, that Spurs, Everton & Aston Villa are finally starting to punch their own weight in the Premiership, and Man City, Portsmouth & Blackburn are punching well above theirs.

 

without a shadow of doubt the best analysis so far

 

with the addendum that we're headed towards taking the place of the aforementioned clubs and punching below our weight, we'd better be careful 'cause look how long it took them to drag themselves back

 

Spurs, Everton and Villa ? ALL THREE of those clubs have had genuine real trophy winning success in the last 40 years since we did anything at all, and ALL THREE of those clubs were above us for the vast majority of this time. Its only recent history which has seen us get above those clubs for most of the time. I like some of your posts mate, but you have this the wrong way round I'm afraid.

 

 

 

This is true, but NONE of those clubs have matched us for support since SJP was redeveloped after the club was taken over by SJH in the early 90s - and NONE of them would match us now IF we got back into the Top 4 and somehow increased the size of SJP OR built another stadium...

 

IF being the operative word. I am abviously aware like yourself that the old board managed to finally get the ground re-developed after 80 years of bungling by previous regimes. Those clubs have only fallen further behind us - in ground capacity terms - since expanding the stadium 10 years ago, a move contributing hugely to our "debts" that many people slate, presumably because they think we ought to have kept the stadium at a 36,000 capacity.

 

I've said before, the club should have moved. It is the old boards biggest mistake. When the Castle Leazes project fell through, they should have moved elsewhere. The council would have caved in when they realised the club meant what they said and would pull the club out of the city centre. I know some people say they simply wouldn't have been given planning permission to build anywhere else, but thats the whole point. They should have said "you will give us planning permission or we will move out of the city".

 

I would put progress before tradition, personally. I would love the club to have a stadium like the Millenium in Cardiff.

 

 

 

Sir John was prepared to move the club to Gateshead and bus fans' families to the MetroCentre(this would almost certainly have forced the Council's hands) , but he was starting to have health problems at the time(was preparing to step down as Chairman) and Fletcher & other Board members didn't press the Council as they should have done on the Castle Leazes project - then the Brains Dept(in the form of John Prescott) got involved and you know the rest.....

 

The new stadium would have had a 75,000 capacity and sliding roof, so your Millenium Stadium dream was almost realised..!

[NE5]

I don't think we've been punching above our weight, no.

 

The problem for us is though, that Spurs, Everton & Aston Villa are finally starting to punch their own weight in the Premiership, and Man City, Portsmouth & Blackburn are punching well above theirs.

 

without a shadow of doubt the best analysis so far

 

with the addendum that we're headed towards taking the place of the aforementioned clubs and punching below our weight, we'd better be careful 'cause look how long it took them to drag themselves back

 

Spurs, Everton and Villa ? ALL THREE of those clubs have had genuine real trophy winning success in the last 40 years since we did anything at all, and ALL THREE of those clubs were above us for the vast majority of this time. Its only recent history which has seen us get above those clubs for most of the time. I like some of your posts mate, but you have this the wrong way round I'm afraid.

 

 

 

This is true, but NONE of those clubs have matched us for support since SJP was redeveloped after the club was taken over by SJH in the early 90s - and NONE of them would match us now IF we got back into the Top 4 and somehow increased the size of SJP OR built another stadium...

 

IF being the operative word. I am abviously aware like yourself that the old board managed to finally get the ground re-developed after 80 years of bungling by previous regimes. Those clubs have only fallen further behind us - in ground capacity terms - since expanding the stadium 10 years ago, a move contributing hugely to our "debts" that many people slate, presumably because they think we ought to have kept the stadium at a 36,000 capacity.

 

I've said before, the club should have moved. It is the old boards biggest mistake. When the Castle Leazes project fell through, they should have moved elsewhere. The council would have caved in when they realised the club meant what they said and would pull the club out of the city centre. I know some people say they simply wouldn't have been given planning permission to build anywhere else, but thats the whole point. They should have said "you will give us planning permission or we will move out of the city".

 

I would put progress before tradition, personally. I would love the club to have a stadium like the Millenium in Cardiff.

 

 

 

Sir John was prepared to move the club to Gateshead and bus fans' families to the MetroCentre(this would almost certainly have forced the Council's hands) , but he was starting to have health problems at the time(was preparing to step down as Chairman) and Fletcher & other Board members didn't press the Council as they should have done on the Castle Leazes project - then the Brains Dept(in the form of John Prescott) got involved and you know the rest.....

 

The new stadium would have had a 75,000 capacity and sliding roof, so your Millenium Stadium dream was almost realised..!

 

aye, some people - including my mate who I've gone to matches with since we were 17 and still sit together - say they wouldn't go to games if the club moved. But they would. They support the club too much. It would be a bit of a pisser to move out of the city centre, don't get me wrong, but people would get used to it.

 

It's a real opportunity lost. When we went to the Cup semi final, and I saw the Millenium, I thought it was the idea football ground, IMO anyway.