Guest optimistic nit Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 They took out loans to pay for a stadium extension and for transfers. Again what's the point mate?, I mean I get what you're saying, but I don't understand how it changes my point in the slightest. Which is that any fans consortium would not need to subsidise Newcastle United anymore then the likes of Freddy Shepherd did. The fact is those loans were club loans, they weren't Freddy's loans, they were Newcastle United's loans. The same loans any owner of Newcastle United could take out, even if the club was owned by fans. and the same loans that, according to ashley, could have seen the club go under. look at liverpool. they paid for torres and babel with loans, now thanks to the credit crunch if they miss out on the CL for a couple of seasons they could be in a bit of trouble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Do we still believe the "club could have folded" line though? I mean I have no doubt that had Ashley not paid that money the club would be in big trouble. But that amount was only payable immediately because he took over! Otherwise it was payable over many many years like any mortgage. Don't get me wrong, its still good that its paid, but it doesn't mean that the club was in massive financial trouble before he took other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest optimistic nit Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 its his word against shepheards, so we have no idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Exactly, and in the past I would have believed Ashley. Now after all the bollocks that's come from his mouth I don't know who to believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
indi Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Indi, yes they took out loans to pay for a stadium extension and for transfers. I get what you're saying, but I don't understand how it changes my point. I think we're just misunderstanding each other here. This stems from James post asking how a fans consortium would afford to pay for the likes of wages ect. My point was and still is that Freddy Shepherd didn't "afford it", so why would a fans consortium need to? Shepherd used money generated by Newcastle United and took loans out in Newcastle United name to pay for things, he didn't do it personally. Mike Ashley came in and found that because of the contract the Halls had with the bank any new ownership meant that the stadium mortgage had to be paid off straight away. Which is not a situation a fans consortium would find themselves in. Everything to do with actually running the club is still being paid for by Newcastle United Football Club, not Ashley personally. I mean I understand that technically because the stadium mortgage is linked to revenue at the club and so in turn running the club Ashley did sort of pay for past costs. But do you see how that's really beside the point I was making? No I don't because it isn't. Shepherd's method was unsustainable, someone was going to have to pay for it in the end, that turned out to be (partly) Ashley. Ashley by paying off the debt is effectively providing the money with which Shepherd subsidised the club for many years. The subsidy still exists, whoever ends up paying for it. Until Ashley has sold the club, he has paid for this subsidy out of his own pocket, it still exists. If he manages to get a price that covers what he paid for the shares plus what he spent to cover the debt, then he has managed to get the new owners to pay for the subsidy instead of him, it still exists. The only way that the subsidy can cease to exist is for the club to bring in more than it spends by an amount sufficient to pay off all the debt, until then it still exists. The club is not in such a position and does not look likely to be for many years to come. If new owners come in and pay off the debt then they will be subsidising the club, if they spend their own money on bringing in new players then they will be subsidising the club further, subsidies will still exist. If fans come in the will have to pay off the debt accrued by previous regimes' subsidisation of the club's income through loans during their time in charge. Until they do that the subsidies will still exist. If the fans decide to continue funding the subsidy through debt, they will find it much harder to do so, as banks will be much more reticent to give loans to a group of fans than they would to someone with a track record in business, yes, even Fred's track record! If they don't then they will need to be able to pay it off, where are they going to get this money from given that the club usually makes a loss? Again, I'll point out that one of the main reasons for the fans wanting Ashley out is because they thought he wasn't spending enough money on transfers, where are they going to get this additional money from on top of all the other money they're going to have to raise to fund their takeover of the club? Are you going to show me the source for the thing about Ashley only paying off the stadium loans or not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It would be great, not just for this site but the whole free world, if this thread was locked, deleted and killed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It would be great, not just for this site but the whole free world, if this thread was locked, deleted and killed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Too late. http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/football/article-1057177/Ashley-widens-desperate-search-Newcastle-buyer-knockback-Gulf.html?ITO=1490 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 First of all supporters won't run the club, they will just own it. Elected chairmen, directors and so forth will be chosen by fans to run the club on our behalf, who in turn will appoint the manager to run the team on their and our behalf with all club profits being reinvested back into the club for transfers and such. Fans already subsidize the club by the way by purchasing season tickets, subscribing to Sky, TV World and publications, by buying replica shirts, beers, pies and other merchandise - this is where the club's revenues come from and since the club was formed this model has always been in place and always will be unless some benevolent person or people take over and put in their own money without taking any back which is as likely as finding rocking horse shit. As far as I'm now concerned the club's future will only ever be safe in the hands of the very people whose interests are 100% about Newcastle United Football Club and not their own pockets or egotism and that people is us lot the fans. If fans put in just half the effort and money they invest into Newcastle over the course of a season and really went for this it would not only be possible but very likely too. We can do this and we need to in my honest opinion because if we don't, we could well lose our club one day. £300m is a very realistic price for this club and that level of funding although ridiculously large, isn't beyond the realm of possibilities. I personally cannot afford to buy a house for £150,000 cash but I can get a loan to buy a house for that price and even in this climate there are many lenders who would bend over backwards to hand over that kind of money to me so I can buy a house. Fans are more than willing to subscribe to Sky one of the very things that have helped hammer a nail into football's coffin, yet laugh at the same idea in principle of subscribing to their football club? This needs to be looked into seriously and thankfully there seems to be some fans willing to invest some time, effort and money looking into the possibility of fan ownership. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 How much are you willing to invest then HTT? What profits do you expect the club to be achieving after say 3 years? I subscribe to Sky because I get something back. If I invest in Newcastle United, it's dead money. I doubt you'll find 300,000 people willing to invest £1000 who don't see it that way. Good luck though. Why don't you just start your own team? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mcdonald36 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It's not dead money it's a commitment to your club. No one is forcing you to contribute anyway, but I'd certainly prefer the club being owned by the fans who have a say in how it's run, even if it's just to elect a new chairman every few years or whatever, with all profits being put back into the club and not into the pockets of these greedy billionaires. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 How much are you willing to invest then HTT? If a fans trust was set up and they were deadly serious, I'd be willing to invest up to £5,000 of my own money, I'd see it as a great investment even if I don't actually get anything back just to be allowed to vote on the future of my club. I would also do all I could to fund raise and I am confident I would be able to get lots of people to fork out similar sums, if not more. What profits do you expect the club to be achieving after say 3 years? I don't see why the club if ran extremely efficiently off the pitch with a good manager and team on the pitch can't generate a healthy turnover and produce a profit as the club has done several times over the past decade. This time however every single penny would be reinvested back into the club rather than going out on dividends or into the pockets of an individual owner or to subsidize other businesses ala Freddy Shepherd's brother's business interests. I subscribe to Sky because I get something back. If I invest in Newcastle United, it's dead money. I doubt you'll find 300,000 people willing to invest £1000 who don't see it that way. Good luck though. You would get something back from buying into Newcastle United, a right to vote on the future of the club among other things. Over 300,000 people already invest well over £1,000 in various forms to follow Newcastle United so it isn't impossible. I believe there are enough people out there who would invest enough if there was a serious and concerted effort that looked more than likely to succeed in taking over the club. Look at how many people have donated to the running of this site in the server thread. Why don't you just start your own team? I'll flip the coin (not directed to you personally) Those wanting a rich owner or success, why don't you just go and support Chelsea or Man Utd? I like everyone else want what is best for my club, like you do too. I personally believe what is best for the club long-term is for it to be owned by the fans, that's my opinion and how I feel. Recent events have taken away all my trust and faith in everyone expect my fellow fans and I can't see a day soon enough where even a glimmer of trust will be given by me towards any individual or group of people owning the club. I won't lie a massive part of my feeling is to do with the game in general too, to be honest I'm sick of it and I'm now feeling that way about the Toon too. One of my fave songs is 'Won't Be Fooled Again' by The Who - I had it on today and the lyrics just struck a chord with me. "Meet the new boss - same as the old boss" Ironically that song is about a revolution meant to change things but for things to stay the same or get worse. That to me sums up our club, for me anyway. At least if fans owned the club there would be no way in which the club could trade hands willy nilly or for outsiders to do what they please with it. I am disgusted by Ashley and co whoring the club across the world in the name of making a profit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowen Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Why don't you just start your own team? I'll flip the coin (not directed to you personally) Those wanting a rich owner or success, why don't you just go and support Chelsea or Man Utd? Those wanting to own their own team, why don't you just go and support Ebbsfleet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I usually agree with the things you say HTT, but I'm afraid I couldn't be any more against the fans taking over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I usually agree with the things you say HTT, but I'm afraid I couldn't be any more against the fans taking over. Why? It seems a lot of those against such an idea are looking at it all wrong, getting confused between the idea of owning and running NUFC being the main one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarralad Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Peter Lee one of the supposed blokes behind this has just been on the legends and was basically laughed off,they havent got a chance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mcdonald36 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It's not an investment or about financial gain. If that's what you're after then it's not for you. What you get is your own little slice of the club and a say, or vote, on who runs it. The Barca fans, I think, paid a one off fee and then pay a membership fee every season, which they can sell to other fans, but not for a profit. They know have something like 40,000 members, which generates huge profits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp40 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Peter Lee one of the supposed blokes behind this has just been on the legends and was basically laughed off,they havent got a chance. I thought it was a fair idea, after listening to him, bungling along, im not sure id trust him with a grand of my dosh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It's not an investment or about financial gain. If that's what you're after then it's not for you. What you get is your own little slice of the club and a say, or vote, on who runs it. The Barca fans, I think, paid a one off fee and then pay a membership fee every season, which they can sell to other fans, but not for a profit. They know have something like 40,000 members, which generates huge profits. I thought they had 150,000 members? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Peter Lee one of the supposed blokes behind this has just been on the legends and was basically laughed off,they havent got a chance. The legends is the North East Talkshite ran by 3 muppets and listened to by muppets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mcdonald36 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 My mistake. Even better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarralad Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Peter Lee one of the supposed blokes behind this has just been on the legends and was basically laughed off,they havent got a chance. The legends is the North East Talkshite ran by 3 muppets and listened to by muppets. And anyone who thinks this savenewcastle thing will ever work are even bigger muppets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It's not dead money it's a commitment to your club. No one is forcing you to contribute anyway, but I'd certainly prefer the club being owned by the fans who have a say in how it's run, even if it's just to elect a new chairman every few years or whatever, with all profits being put back into the club and not into the pockets of these greedy billionaires. My season ticket money is my commitment to my club, year on year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Peter Lee one of the supposed blokes behind this has just been on the legends and was basically laughed off,they havent got a chance. The legends is the North East Talkshite ran by 3 muppets and listened to by muppets. And anyone who thinks this savenewcastle thing will ever work are even bigger muppets. No-one is saying this Save Newcastle thing specifically will ever work, I agree the site is laughable in parts, but this isn't about the website or the ideas, rather the sentiment of fans owning their own club which we can never say wouldn't work because how the fuck would we know that, based on what exactly?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I usually agree with the things you say HTT, but I'm afraid I couldn't be any more against the fans taking over. Why? It seems a lot of those against such an idea are looking at it all wrong, getting confused between the idea of owning and running NUFC being the main one. Sorry mate, I just don't feel it would be a step in the right direction. I didn't really post that to discuss it, I just wanted to state my feelings on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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