He's gone down in my estimation.

[johnnypd]

Wonder where we'd be if Keegan had soldiered on and not walked out three weeks ago?

 

The amount of people who freely admit to not knowing what happened this summer, but back Keegan 100% regardless is frightening. They have already decided he is right simply because of who he is. 

 

 

we'd have a discontented manager who has been undermined by a board that will spend no money, working with a squad he's not happy with. What we'd have is us looking forward to this situation blowing up in the future rather than having had it already happen. It was going to happen sooner or later, regardless of the manager, so we may as well have gotten it out the way. it may be that Keegan would've refused to co-operate with his coworkers, became deliberately intransigent and held on a matter of months for the sack in order to get his £2m. But he's not that sort of character, which is why what has happened was always going to happen when the system started becoming more important than the manager.

[TRon]

Ashley's been far more cowardly than Keegan. Keegan could do absolutely nothing about his situation (stick it out or walk, fucked either way) but Ashley could about his. It's in the nature of football supporters that we're fickle cunts - we wanted Shepherd out but he kept going and if he'd have turned it round, we'd have said "fair enough NE5 you were right, Fred's great".

 

The Glazers didn't bottle it when thousands of Man Utd fans congregated on Old Trafford, now they're English and European champions. Liverpool staged a protest on the same day as we did, Gillett and Hicks haven't hoyed the toys.

 

For a hard nosed businessman, he's got no spine whatsoever. Showed that when he ordered Mr Toad to sort the KK mess out rather than interrupting his jolly up.

 

You are conveniently forgetting that if he showed some spine and did stick it out (which if he sticks to that price, he still might) everyone is still going to be up in arms till he's gone. True Faith and Friends have made it quite clear that they intend their campaign to continue.

 

So what is it you want? If he sells quick he's a coward, if he doesn't he's a cunt

 

Half the Premiership would get rid of their board tomorrow and many have protested to that end. Man Utd hate the Glazers, Liverpool hate H&G, Everton hate Kenwright. Those clubs aren't in the state we are.

 

I want Ashley out as much as anyone but not at the expense of Premiership football. Shepherd was a cunt as well but he never let things get to this stage, letting the club and the team be torn apart while he pisses around in bars trying to find a billionaire who might happen to have nipped in for a swift half. It's total dereliction of duty.

 

I think dereliction of duty applies to KK more tbh, and even now if he came back as Newcastle manager I would back him 100% like I did before when plenty of others here were waving the white flag. I can totally respect Keegan walking out on Ashley because he wasn't getting undermined or not enough support.

 

But the truth is he has gone down in my estimation because he also walked out leaving his players and the fans in the shit. If he'd stayed even til January giving notice, we would be alright. Did SBR ever quit? Did he quit England when the shit was flying? Did he quit Barcelona when the handkerchiefs were waved or when he got moved upstairs? Did he quit when Fat Fred was buying players behind his back?

 

Ashley? I don't really care if he's here today or gone tomorrow. I expect a bit more from my heroes though, and Keegan should be leading that team out on Wednesday against Spurs, even if the circumstances aren't ideal.

[midds]

Wonder where we'd be if Keegan had soldiered on and not walked out three weeks ago?

 

The amount of people who freely admit to not knowing what happened this summer, but back Keegan 100% regardless is frightening. They have already decided he is right simply because of who he is. 

 

 

we'd have a discontented manager who has been undermined by a board that will spend no money, working with a squad he's not happy with. What we'd have is us looking forward to this situation blowing up in the future rather than having had it already happen. It was going to happen sooner or later, regardless of the manager, so we may as well have gotten it out the way. it may be that Keegan would've refused to co-operate with his coworkers, became deliberately intransigent and held on a matter of months for the sack in order to get his £2m. But he's not that sort of character, which is why what has happened was always going to happen when the system started becoming more important than the manager.

 

There's an awful lot of assumptions as to what would have happened in there but fair enough. Keegan has a track-record of leaving people he supposedly cares about in the shit rather than try to find a solution. He's done it to us twice, Fulham and England. But he's Kevin Keegan so it's fine. He's right and his actions are beyond reproach.

 

We disagree but I'm not falling out with anyone over it. I think I'll take a bit of a break from this place too tbh.

[johnnypd]

Wonder where we'd be if Keegan had soldiered on and not walked out three weeks ago?

 

The amount of people who freely admit to not knowing what happened this summer, but back Keegan 100% regardless is frightening. They have already decided he is right simply because of who he is. 

 

I'm disappointed with him walking out but I can totally understand why he did it. I also can't see how he's in the wrong in any way despite the desperation of some to paint him as the bad guy.

 

I reckon the state of the squad speaks for itself tbh. Keegan was being asked to work miracles with his head, not Dennis Wise's, on the block.

 

Really? 

 

I think the squad, when fully fit, is stronger now than last season too. I can understand him walking out but not on September 2nd. If he wasn't happy with the set-up, he should have walked straight away imo.

 

Just my opinion btw and if people don't agree then that's fine with me.

 

i genuinely don't understand why people are confused by the timing of his decision. it seems really bloody obvious to me. think of when the transfer window closed, think of when this blew up, think of when keegan left. if this was something to do about transfers then the most obvious time to leave would be at the close of the transfer window. ffs the Curbishley situation at West Ham blew up at exactly the same time for similar reasons! either both of them have timed their resignations weirdly (what a coincidence!) or there is some sort of reason behind the timing, an emergent problem that has produced the same results in two independent situations.

 

for me, the timing of the departure really means there was two possible scenarios impacting upon how this developed.

 

the first is that Keegan and the set-up had some sort of consensus, however uneasy, about how they were going to conduct business. Keegan being happy with Jonas and Colo, and being able to greenlight or pull out of deals for Bassong and Zayatte respectively, after looking at them first-hand, certainly supports this viewpoint. He was also spotted with Vetere at two Ligue 1 games which suggests those two at least had a working relationship and understanding, Keegan eventually deciding Gomis and Diane weren't of the required quality. Then, after the Milner sale, when the set-up ignored Keegan's wishes, tried to sell players without his consent, and bought players over his head which he didn't want or which he'd never discussed, the consensus disappeared. This led to confrontation and ultimately his resignation.

 

The second is that the problem situation already existed, but that Keegan tried to change this from within, working tirelessly while there was still a chance he could influence things, that is, while the window remained open. This viewpoint is perhaps backed up by Keegan's confrontation after the chelsea game last season - he seemed to be pushing for a different direction, the one he thought was best for the club. However not only was Keegan unable to resolve his issues while the window was open, but they appear to have gotten worse, with the events outlined in the above paragraph fatally undermining his position as 'manager' For this reading of events, the logical time for him to depart would be the same - at the end of the window.

 

or maybe it was a mix of both. either way, it's no suprise that a manager who leaves because of transfer issues leaves at the end of the transfer window.

[johnnypd]

Wonder where we'd be if Keegan had soldiered on and not walked out three weeks ago?

 

The amount of people who freely admit to not knowing what happened this summer, but back Keegan 100% regardless is frightening. They have already decided he is right simply because of who he is. 

 

 

we'd have a discontented manager who has been undermined by a board that will spend no money, working with a squad he's not happy with. What we'd have is us looking forward to this situation blowing up in the future rather than having had it already happen. It was going to happen sooner or later, regardless of the manager, so we may as well have gotten it out the way. it may be that Keegan would've refused to co-operate with his coworkers, became deliberately intransigent and held on a matter of months for the sack in order to get his £2m. But he's not that sort of character, which is why what has happened was always going to happen when the system started becoming more important than the manager.

 

There's an awful lot of assumptions as to what would have happened in there but fair enough. Keegan has a track-record of leaving people he supposedly cares about in the shit rather than try to find a solution. He's done it to us twice, Fulham and England. But he's Kevin Keegan so it's fine. He's right and his actions are beyond reproach.

 

We disagree but I'm not falling out with anyone over it. I think I'll take a bit of a break from this place too tbh.

 

it is a lot of assumptions but you did ask us to theorise on a hypothetical situation 

 

i'd say the reason why it was inevitable has just as much to do with the inherent flaws in the system - ie undermining the manager, than it has to do with keegan's personality. even curbishley left for this reason and he's not exactly the most incendiary or confrontational bloke. loads of managers have left clubs due to board interference, even our alleged number one target Harry Redknapp did this twice in the space of a year.

 

Keegan's personality does play a part, but i personally dont blame him for doing it. Bobby Robson tried to work through Shepherd's interference and public undermining as he is a different character but i dont think anyone wouldve blamed him for walking away after that sort of treatment either.

 

as for agreeing to disagree, sure. personally ive enjoyed the debate, the likes of you, Tron, bobyule and Op Nut always present arguments well and coherently even though i dont always agree with the basic point of view. 

[tmonkey]

Ashley's been far more cowardly than Keegan. Keegan could do absolutely nothing about his situation (stick it out or walk, f***ed either way) but Ashley could about his. It's in the nature of football supporters that we're fickle c***s - we wanted Shepherd out but he kept going and if he'd have turned it round, we'd have said "fair enough NE5 you were right, Fred's great".

 

The Glazers didn't bottle it when thousands of Man Utd fans congregated on Old Trafford, now they're English and European champions. Liverpool staged a protest on the same day as we did, Gillett and Hicks haven't hoyed the toys.

 

For a hard nosed businessman, he's got no spine whatsoever. Showed that when he ordered Mr Toad to sort the KK mess out rather than interrupting his jolly up.

 

Would it not make a difference if Ashley had bought the club to enjoy it while the others had bought into a club as a business decision?  He's hardly going to get any enjoyment out of supporting us now after the protests.

 

If he'd bought it to enjoy it, he wouldn't be scrimping and saving on Michael Owen's wages while putting hundreds of millions on spread betting. I don't know what his motive was and I couldn't really give a f*** anymore. I just don't want to go down and that's where these world class players he's bought are taking us (through very little fault of their own I might add).

 

We dont know what the situation is with Owen's contract in terms of what has been offered.

 

Not sure either whether Ashley deserves that much criticism for the Owen situation. What makes anyone think that Owen has, or had, any intention of signing a new contract? Keegan or no Keegan, increased wages or decreased wages, Owen's future with us is most likely in Owen's hands alone, and bar holding a gun to his head, what can Ashley do if Owen's made up his mind about leaving at the end of the seaosn?

 

Judging by the fact that his agents tried to engineer a move before the start of last season, combined with the outright dismissal of us as an option when we were first linked with him, along with the way he left Liverpool for a bigger club and in the process left a club that had nurtured him at a time when they were winning trophies and in the top four (just about), there's every indication that he never had any intention to extend his stay with us regardless of whether we were showing good improvement or not. Conversely, he's not made a definate statement of wanting to stay with us either, other than the generic responses of "its a big club, fans are great, i'll be looking into it, will discuss it, will let you know". If he's as ambitious as he was when we first signed him, whether that be club ambitions or international ambitions, then we had no chance of getting him to extend his contract, and none of that is Ashley's fault - he took over a shit team with a shit manager appointed, and unless he's expected to pump £60m of his own money into the club's transfer kitty (plus the same amount for additional wages probably), then there's no way anyone could have turned around the mess left by the Shepherd era within 8 months to the extent that Owen would be willing to stay (as things stand). Completely unreasonable to pin this on Ashley, based on current information anyway.

 

Also, as a side note, 3 days before the transfer window closed Keegan said three things:

 

1) That he was happy with the players brought in, that they were of good quality and that the fans would be happy with them. Following the Milner sale, which he stated to be his decision, he put his reputation on the line by telling the fans to trust him because they'd be happy with what we'd end up with.

2) That he was looking to sign good players only, and that if they were unable to make up the numbers because the good players weren't available, "then so be it". He also said there might be more sales.

3) That the owner was great, committed to the club, and that things were going well. Fans had nothing to worry about, and if they did, he'd be the first to tell the fans.

[alpal78]

Wonder where we'd be if Keegan had soldiered on and not walked out three weeks ago?

 

The amount of people who freely admit to not knowing what happened this summer, but back Keegan 100% regardless is frightening. They have already decided he is right simply because of who he is. 

 

I'm disappointed with him walking out but I can totally understand why he did it. I also can't see how he's in the wrong in any way despite the desperation of some to paint him as the bad guy.

 

I reckon the state of the squad speaks for itself tbh. Keegan was being asked to work miracles with his head, not Dennis Wise's, on the block.

 

Wullie, I'm sure we discussed this point in another thread before. With the exception of maybe a good AM (which Nacho could prove to be yet though I'll admit unlikely), majority on this board (you included...I think) thought that the squad was adequate. Sure there was some mutterings on LB, but I think we've got more than decent cover in Bassong (I personally would like him to start ahead of Zoggy not so much becuase I want Zoggy to play on the wing but because I think Bassong is a better LB). So how come now some of the same people are complaining of the squad and using it as a stick to prove their point on Ashley?

 

What happened is that we've been unlucky with injuries and suspension, we've lost Martins, Viduka, Jonas, Beye, Enrique, Guthrie and Barton, almost all at the same time, that's 5-6 players who could be in our first team. This is surely nobody's fault (maybe the physio), neither KK nor Ashley's. With almost the core of the first team out, we'd be in the shit even if KK was around or even if KK had got some of the players he really wanted (no manager get all the players he wants....not even Scolari), unles we assume the players KK wanted are somehow immune to injuries. If you wanted us to have better cover for all these 5/6 positions, then we would have to buy in quantity instead of quality like what most Championship sides do. No board can have the foresight to predict that we'd be so fucked with so many injuries/suspensions so early in the season. In any case, like I said, most were happy with the squad we had pre inuries/suspensions....so why change now? 

 

I think there are legitimate reasons for us to criticize & condemn Ashley, but the squad depth is not one of them. To use this point just reeks of desperation to use anything and everything to blame Ashley.    

[mrmojorisin75]

Ashley's been far more cowardly than Keegan. Keegan could do absolutely nothing about his situation (stick it out or walk, fucked either way) but Ashley could about his. It's in the nature of football supporters that we're fickle cunts - we wanted Shepherd out but he kept going and if he'd have turned it round, we'd have said "fair enough NE5 you were right, Fred's great".

 

The Glazers didn't bottle it when thousands of Man Utd fans congregated on Old Trafford, now they're English and European champions. Liverpool staged a protest on the same day as we did, Gillett and Hicks haven't hoyed the toys.

 

For a hard nosed businessman, he's got no spine whatsoever. Showed that when he ordered Mr Toad to sort the KK mess out rather than interrupting his jolly up.

 

did the liverpool and manu protests involve a co-ordinated call to arms that swore to hit the owner(s) of the club in the pocket by not buying any merchandise whatsoever until the owners were gone?

 

if they did then fair enough you've got a point but as far as i'm aware they didn't & haven't - wonder how long the glazers, gilletts & hicks' of this world would hang around if they stopped receiving matchday revenue?

 

my guess is not very long

 

personally i agree that ashley has chucked it in too easy, he wants to sell now as he's probably realised running a football club isn't all downing pints and nightclubs...still you get what you wish for and he did what "the fans" wanted didn't he?  as i said in another thread he just hasn't done it on our terms yet (i.e. sell to a megabucks billionairre for no profit within a week) nor do i expect him to

 

you rightly say fans ARE fickle and if he'd ignored the protests and signed a shit hot manager and we'd started winning the whole mess would have went away in a fairly short time...what has become evident to me though, personally, is that ashley has seemingly bought a club and put his faith in certain people (wise, veterre, jiminez) who must have been recommended to him by someone else i guess, maybe this kelmsley character?

 

my point is it appears the first level of advice was shit as for who to take into his management team and stick with, as if they think the squad we've started with is good enough then they're fucken deluded, but these would be the people choosing the next manager lest we forget!! 

 

my money would have been on a right pile of crap, and we might still see it

[Guest shearer_united]

If he knew it was inevitable that he was going to leave, I would have rather he had left earlier. Would have given the club more time to think things over while the transfer window was open and there was enough time for the next manager to do something.

[Guest guinness_fiend]

To be fair, I do not think that anyone on this board disagrees with Keegan's rationale behind his leaving the club, however the general consensus is that due to his decision to walk after the closing of the transfer window it has the potential to cause irreparable damage (at least in the short term) to the club, in that:

 

(a)  it has disrupted the players, who are currently underperforming;

(b)  we will likely have to wait until Christmas for a new manager (due to us being "for sale"); and

©  the speculation behind his exit has once again given the London media ammunition against us.

 

In addition to this, whilst I understand his reasoning, I honestly believe that if he loves the club as much as his proclaims, he could have swallowed his pride and steadied the ship until the opening of the winter transfer window.  That way, Ashley could have been given plenty of notice of his intention to quit and could have quietly made moves behind the scenes (i.e. at least establish a contingency plan) whilst possibly trying to placate Keegan.

 

As it stands however, the whole 'prone to throwing his toys out of the pram' stigma that has attached itself to Keegan over recent years is going to be a difficult one to shake.  Almost every non-Newcastle fan that I know predicted that this would happen within hours of him signing.  I wish him all the best in whatever he decides to do in the future, but I will struggle to forgive both him and Ashley (in equal measures) if we end up in the Championship next season.

 

[Tooj]

He certainly hasn't gone down in my estimation.

[cp40]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

[Tooj]

Wonder where we'd be if Keegan had soldiered on and not walked out three weeks ago?

 

The amount of people who freely admit to not knowing what happened this summer, but back Keegan 100% regardless is frightening. They have already decided he is right simply because of who he is. 

 

 

If we're basing it on speculation I'd back Kevin Keegan everytime. The thing that bothers me is what has Ashley, Llambias and Wise done in their time to make people believe them and trust them over Kevin Keegan in all things related to Newcastle United?

 

Ashley has openly contradicted himself in public several times over. Compared to a man whose honesty and integrity to myself has never been in doubt, a man in such a false game who has been too honest for his own good in the past.

[Tooj]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

[cp40]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

 

 

I bet you werent in Korea tho

[oldtype]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

 

 

I bet you werent in Korea tho

 

Some people here are so pathetic it just makes me laugh.

 

First it's my nationality, now it's my age? Have a word with yourself.

 

Would the idiots without anything productive to say like me to provide some additional facts about myself so they can insult those as well?

 

You're the very dictionary definition of a mong. I'd be honestly surprised if you were that much older than I am.

[cp40]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

 

 

I bet you werent in Korea tho

 

Some people here are so pathetic it just makes me laugh.

 

First it's my nationality, now it's my age? Have a word with yourself.

 

You're the very dictionary definition of a mong. I'd be surprised if you were that much older than I am.

 

 

Cheers Fu mong Chu

prepare to be surprised....im an old Mong,

[Tooj]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

 

I bet you werent in Korea tho

 

 

Aye.

[Guest guinness_fiend]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

What it also means is that he can pass comment on Keegan with an element of objectivity, rather than letting a romanticised rose-tinted myth cloud his opinion.

 

[Tooj]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

What it also means is that he can pass comment on Keegan with an element of objectivity, rather than letting a romanticised rose-tinted myth cloud his opinion.

 

 

What myth is this then? The myth that we wouldn't have a football club like we know now if it wasn't for Keegan.

[Guest guinness_fiend]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

What it also means is that he can pass comment on Keegan with an element of objectivity, rather than letting a romanticised rose-tinted myth cloud his opinion.

 

 

What myth is this then? The myth that we wouldn't have a football club like we know now if it wasn't for Keegan.

 

The myth is that everything was perfect and that Keegan is a sort of infallible superhero.  He has his faults and many of us accepted them a long time ago.  That is all. 

[oldtype]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

 

 

I bet you werent in Korea tho

 

Some people here are so pathetic it just makes me laugh.

 

First it's my nationality, now it's my age? Have a word with yourself.

 

You're the very dictionary definition of a mong. I'd be surprised if you were that much older than I am.

 

 

Cheers Fu mong Chu

prepare to be surprised....im an old Mong,

 

In that case, I feel sorry for your family.

 

Were you by any chance that grey-haired twat who shouted something I won't repeat behind my back the last time I was at SJP?

[cp40]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

What it also means is that he can pass comment on Keegan with an element of objectivity, rather than letting a romanticised rose-tinted myth cloud his opinion.

 

 

What myth is this then? The myth that we wouldn't have a football club like we know now if it wasn't for Keegan.

 

 

 

The myth that he got us promoted twice, 1 as captain, 1 as manager.....Mythical

[cp40]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

I'm 23 and I remember him keeping us up and the ride from there on in.

 

 

I bet you werent in Korea tho

 

Some people here are so pathetic it just makes me laugh.

 

First it's my nationality, now it's my age? Have a word with yourself.

 

You're the very dictionary definition of a mong. I'd be surprised if you were that much older than I am.

 

 

Cheers Fu mong Chu

prepare to be surprised....im an old Mong,

 

In that case, I feel sorry for your family.

 

Were you by any chance that grey-haired t*** who shouted something I won't repeat behind my back the last time I was at SJP?

 

 

a, im not a racist

 

b, i aint afraid to tell anyone it to thier face

[Guest guinness_fiend]

Thread starter, aged 22...made him 6 when Keegan saved us in 92, not even a twinkle when Keegan was the inspiration to promotion in 84,....he is judging a great man, from a childs perspective.

 

What it also means is that he can pass comment on Keegan with an element of objectivity, rather than letting a romanticised rose-tinted myth cloud his opinion.

 

 

What myth is this then? The myth that we wouldn't have a football club like we know now if it wasn't for Keegan.

 

 

 

The myth that he got us promoted twice, 1 as captain, 1 as manager.....Mythical

 

Er, I suggest that you read my post above my friend, in order to focus your thoughts.  What he did *then* is not being disputed.  His actions of late are the ones under scrutiny.  Hence the thread title I suppose.