Guest Heneage Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 If in a few years we could put out a carling cup side like Arsenal's i'd be happy. A few years? How long has it taken Wenger to be able to do that? But Tooj, if you imagine Wenger built that from the ground up, he built there academy, worked on their methods, what was best, what worked, what didn't. We learn from his mistakes. A good academy takes 3-5 years to apply I would say. When you consider we already have some talent in the shape of Baheng, Kadar, Soderberg, Zamblera, as well as Vukic. We are not at the bottom of the ladder. He also had quite a good first team as well btw. Then it's not just that, it's building a culture as well, having good coaches, players not being afraid to make the step up. Right and is it impossible to source good local and international coaches? The Fifa licenses are more popular than ever, so there is nothing stopping us. In that time we can raise our profile as an academy, work on getting more talent, work on getting good technical coaches, look at places like Holland, Spain,France,Italy and other parts of Europe as well as taking on apprentice coaches who will learn it is not a terribly difficult thing to implement, people make out like Wenger re-invented the wheel. When did I ever say anything of the sort about Wenger re-inventing the wheel? And why haven't we got some of these coaches on board as of yet if it's so easy? You have to ask them that. I would imagine it would be the pay-offs and the hassle of having to get off their arse and do it. It takes time of some scale to organize everything, its no overnight job, but done right its not terribly hard. And I didn't say you did, read again I said "People" think he has. We can improve our academy vastly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 If in a few years we could put out a carling cup side like Arsenal's i'd be happy. A few years? How long has it taken Wenger to be able to do that? But Tooj, if you imagine Wenger built that from the ground up, he built there academy, worked on their methods, what was best, what worked, what didn't. We learn from his mistakes. A good academy takes 3-5 years to apply I would say. When you consider we already have some talent in the shape of Baheng, Kadar, Soderberg, Zamblera, as well as Vukic. We are not at the bottom of the ladder. He also had quite a good first team as well btw. Then it's not just that, it's building a culture as well, having good coaches, players not being afraid to make the step up. As well as all this, we go through the same thing each year with how amazing the Arsenal youth set up is, has been occurring for a good few years now, but lets actually look at their current first team (if fit), off the top of my head: Almunia (bought), Sagna (bought), Gallas (bought), Toure (bought) / Silvestre (bought), Clichy (youth), Fabregas (youth), Nasri (bought), Rosicky (bought), Walcott (bought), Van Persie (bought), Adebayor (bought). Whilst Fabregas and Clichy are fucking class, they came through 3 years ago... Despite the current crop being showered with praise, as the teams in previous years were, loads of these players are not making the step up. The likes of Diaby, Senderos, Song, Denilson, Eboue and Bendtner have all looked far from world beaters when they have been used. This is the top current academy that has been operating its policy since Wenger came in over ten years ago. We are a club in crisis, where (from the outside) we appear to have no idea who is running what at the club, a manager who most of us assumed dead prior to his appointment and an owner / chairman / director of football despised by the majority, with a very precarious league position. Us signing a load of promising young players will more than likely end just the same way as when we signed the star players, with their careers being pretty fucked as a result, it will just be cheaper. The club needs to be fixed from the top down, with a structure that is clear and a first team squad the priority, then we can start building on the youth side of things extensively. What we are doing is ass about face. The double winning Arsenal side in 1998 wasn't exactly full of local / youth players brought in by Wenger, it was a quality team full of fucking great players, this gave them the platform to attract the best youth in the world and build the academy they have. We have very little chance of competing whilst the first team is a shambles. They may not be world beaters but they are excellent finacial supplemnts should the club need it, lookinga those 6 players its fair to say that should they not make it at Arsenal, they'd make it somewhere else, they'd also cost a fair bit my guess would be £30-40m for that lot. Theres the real value in youth, its win win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobby_solano Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 yup, going back to arsenal, they had a strong first XI when wenger took over, seaman in goal, the stingy back 4 with the likes of dixon/winterburn/keown/bould/adams, in midfield platt/parlour/merson and upfront wright/bergkamp so he could afford to develop the academy over time. we've not got that strong a first XI in the first place Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The best thing we could do now is bring in Houllier as manager. Not only is he a very good, experienced manager, he also has a proven record of youth development - the work he did as Head of Technical Development for the French FA was instrumental in them winning the World Cup and the European Championships. would love him here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The best thing we could do now is bring in Houllier as manager. Not only is he a very good, experienced manager, he also has a proven record of youth development - the work he did as Head of Technical Development for the French FA was instrumental in them winning the World Cup and the European Championships. would love him here. Me too, would be amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRL Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 If in a few years we could put out a carling cup side like Arsenal's i'd be happy. A few years? How long has it taken Wenger to be able to do that? But Tooj, if you imagine Wenger built that from the ground up, he built there academy, worked on their methods, what was best, what worked, what didn't. We learn from his mistakes. A good academy takes 3-5 years to apply I would say. When you consider we already have some talent in the shape of Baheng, Kadar, Soderberg, Zamblera, as well as Vukic. We are not at the bottom of the ladder. He also had quite a good first team as well btw. Then it's not just that, it's building a culture as well, having good coaches, players not being afraid to make the step up. As well as all this, we go through the same thing each year with how amazing the Arsenal youth set up is, has been occurring for a good few years now, but lets actually look at their current first team (if fit), off the top of my head: Almunia (bought), Sagna (bought), Gallas (bought), Toure (bought) / Silvestre (bought), Clichy (youth), Fabregas (youth), Nasri (bought), Rosicky (bought), Walcott (bought), Van Persie (bought), Adebayor (bought). Whilst Fabregas and Clichy are fucking class, they came through 3 years ago... Despite the current crop being showered with praise, as the teams in previous years were, loads of these players are not making the step up. The likes of Diaby, Senderos, Song, Denilson, Eboue and Bendtner have all looked far from world beaters when they have been used. This is the top current academy that has been operating its policy since Wenger came in over ten years ago. We are a club in crisis, where (from the outside) we appear to have no idea who is running what at the club, a manager who most of us assumed dead prior to his appointment and an owner / chairman / director of football despised by the majority, with a very precarious league position. Us signing a load of promising young players will more than likely end just the same way as when we signed the star players, with their careers being pretty fucked as a result, it will just be cheaper. The club needs to be fixed from the top down, with a structure that is clear and a first team squad the priority, then we can start building on the youth side of things extensively. What we are doing is ass about face. The double winning Arsenal side in 1998 wasn't exactly full of local / youth players brought in by Wenger, it was a quality team full of fucking great players, this gave them the platform to attract the best youth in the world and build the academy they have. We have very little chance of competing whilst the first team is a shambles. They may not be world beaters but they are excellent finacial supplemnts should the club need it, lookinga those 6 players its fair to say that should they not make it at Arsenal, they'd make it somewhere else, they'd also cost a fair bit my guess would be £30-40m for that lot. Theres the real value in youth, its win win. But that was my point, they were the players produced at the best academy in the Prem, which has been set up for years and had the backing of a premiership winning first team... We do not have the draw they do and i would say it was very naive to say, after a year and a bit of the Ashley regime (and less than a year of wise and co) that we have a better scouting network, our coaching is not of the same standard and we are generally inferior in so many other aspects it's untrue... It stands to reason that what we produce will be far less talented than what they do, unless we put ourselves in the position, through our management, structure, ownership and league position, to do so. We have to fix the immediate problems before providing a long term solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 We have to fix the immediate problems before providing a long term solution. Surely we can do both? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRL Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 We have to fix the immediate problems before providing a long term solution. Surely we can do both? Certainly, we can work on building the academy structure in the background, but right now it really does seem to be taking up resources that could be doing a more effective job improving the first team. It appears pretty obvious that Wise is involved in more than just the youth set up, in which case during any transfer window he should be focussing on the first team. We can bring in youth players at any time during the season (or at least sign them up on pre-contracts, gentlemen's agreements, etc), so why the sudden spate of activity now? Have this going on behind the scenes all season, sort the first team now, surely? I still think that it is a LOT harder to establish and build up a successful academy whilst the first team are in the shit. If you want to use Ipswich and Southampton as examples of good academies at clubs with rubbish first teams feel free, but i'm not particularly keen to use either of those clubs as examples... So, to answer your question, you would have thought so, but i don't see much evidence of it from those in charge of the club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 If in a few years we could put out a carling cup side like Arsenal's i'd be happy. A few years? How long has it taken Wenger to be able to do that? But Tooj, if you imagine Wenger built that from the ground up, he built there academy, worked on their methods, what was best, what worked, what didn't. We learn from his mistakes. A good academy takes 3-5 years to apply I would say. When you consider we already have some talent in the shape of Baheng, Kadar, Soderberg, Zamblera, as well as Vukic. We are not at the bottom of the ladder. He also had quite a good first team as well btw. Then it's not just that, it's building a culture as well, having good coaches, players not being afraid to make the step up. As well as all this, we go through the same thing each year with how amazing the Arsenal youth set up is, has been occurring for a good few years now, but lets actually look at their current first team (if fit), off the top of my head: Almunia (bought), Sagna (bought), Gallas (bought), Toure (bought) / Silvestre (bought), Clichy (youth), Fabregas (youth), Nasri (bought), Rosicky (bought), Walcott (bought), Van Persie (bought), Adebayor (bought). Whilst Fabregas and Clichy are fucking class, they came through 3 years ago... Despite the current crop being showered with praise, as the teams in previous years were, loads of these players are not making the step up. The likes of Diaby, Senderos, Song, Denilson, Eboue and Bendtner have all looked far from world beaters when they have been used. This is the top current academy that has been operating its policy since Wenger came in over ten years ago. We are a club in crisis, where (from the outside) we appear to have no idea who is running what at the club, a manager who most of us assumed dead prior to his appointment and an owner / chairman / director of football despised by the majority, with a very precarious league position. Us signing a load of promising young players will more than likely end just the same way as when we signed the star players, with their careers being pretty fucked as a result, it will just be cheaper. The club needs to be fixed from the top down, with a structure that is clear and a first team squad the priority, then we can start building on the youth side of things extensively. What we are doing is ass about face. The double winning Arsenal side in 1998 wasn't exactly full of local / youth players brought in by Wenger, it was a quality team full of fucking great players, this gave them the platform to attract the best youth in the world and build the academy they have. We have very little chance of competing whilst the first team is a shambles. They may not be world beaters but they are excellent finacial supplemnts should the club need it, lookinga those 6 players its fair to say that should they not make it at Arsenal, they'd make it somewhere else, they'd also cost a fair bit my guess would be £30-40m for that lot. Theres the real value in youth, its win win. But that was my point, they were the players produced at the best academy in the Prem, which has been set up for years and had the backing of a premiership winning first team... We do not have the draw they do and i would say it was very naive to say, after a year and a bit of the Ashley regime (and less than a year of wise and co) that we have a better scouting network, our coaching is not of the same standard and we are generally inferior in so many other aspects it's untrue... It stands to reason that what we produce will be far less talented than what they do, unless we put ourselves in the position, through our management, structure, ownership and league position, to do so. We have to fix the immediate problems before providing a long term solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The best thing we could do now is bring in Houllier as manager. Not only is he a very good, experienced manager, he also has a proven record of youth development - the work he did as Head of Technical Development for the French FA was instrumental in them winning the World Cup and the European Championships. would love him here. Me too, would be amazing. Was the first person we should have turned to when keegan left. we would be in a completely different situation right now if he had been brought in. Owen would more than likely have re-signed, more players would be interested in joining us and might well have already done that. Given our current situation he would be a great choice to take over in the summer, there will be few better options available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 We have to fix the immediate problems before providing a long term solution. Surely we can do both? Certainly, we can work on building the academy structure in the background, but right now it really does seem to be taking up resources that could be doing a more effective job improving the first team. It appears pretty obvious that Wise is involved in more than just the youth set up, in which case during any transfer window he should be focussing on the first team. We can bring in youth players at any time during the season (or at least sign them up on pre-contracts, gentlemen's agreements, etc), so why the sudden spate of activity now? Have this going on behind the scenes all season, sort the first team now, surely? I still think that it is a LOT harder to establish and build up a successful academy whilst the first team are in the shit. If you want to use Ipswich and Southampton as examples of good academies at clubs with rubbish first teams feel free, but i'm not particularly keen to use either of those clubs as examples... So, to answer your question, you would have thought so, but i don't see much evidence of it from those in charge of the club. Surely the obvious answer for why we're not throwing money around on the first team is we have little money, so until bids are accepted there isn't much we can do, what does seem to be happening is that the youth players we are chasing most have spent some time at the club on a trial so I don't really see this as taking us too much of our time through the window. There's no point in using either Ipswich or Southampton as examples as to my knowledge neither have gone abroad in search of youth players and have focused on either local talent or players from this country. What I see happening with this club now that we've seen the financial results is that the big earners will need to be moved on before we can progress unless Ashley is going to finance a spending spree which is unlikely, until then I don't see the harm in pushing on with improving our youth set up or our scouting network and I would be chuffed if we produced a quarter of the talent Arsenal has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The best thing we could do now is bring in Houllier as manager. Not only is he a very good, experienced manager, he also has a proven record of youth development - the work he did as Head of Technical Development for the French FA was instrumental in them winning the World Cup and the European Championships. would love him here. Me too, would be amazing. Was the first person we should have turned to when keegan left. we would be in a completely different situation right now if he had been brought in. Owen would more than likely have re-signed, more players would be interested in joining us and might well have already done that. Given our current situation he would be a great choice to take over in the summer, there will be few better options available. He'd of been my 3rd choice behind Deschamps and Zico. Deschamps becasue he's young talented knows Wise and will have a good grasp of the market, and Zico becasue he's used to working in this type of set up, has a decent coaching record and is a huge name in the game both like playing attacking football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The best thing we could do now is bring in Houllier as manager. Not only is he a very good, experienced manager, he also has a proven record of youth development - the work he did as Head of Technical Development for the French FA was instrumental in them winning the World Cup and the European Championships. would love him here. Me too, would be amazing. Was the first person we should have turned to when keegan left. we would be in a completely different situation right now if he had been brought in. Owen would more than likely have re-signed, more players would be interested in joining us and might well have already done that. Given our current situation he would be a great choice to take over in the summer, there will be few better options available. He'd of been my 3rd choice behind Deschamps and Zico. Deschamps becasue he's young talented knows Wise and will have a good grasp of the market, and Zico becasue he's used to working in this type of set up, has a decent coaching record and is a huge name in the game both like playing attacking football. Houllier might actually appeal to Ashley as he might fit the system quite well and is also a 'name' that might pacify the fans for a bit. Almost dare to dream it might happen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRL Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 We have to fix the immediate problems before providing a long term solution. Surely we can do both? Certainly, we can work on building the academy structure in the background, but right now it really does seem to be taking up resources that could be doing a more effective job improving the first team. It appears pretty obvious that Wise is involved in more than just the youth set up, in which case during any transfer window he should be focussing on the first team. We can bring in youth players at any time during the season (or at least sign them up on pre-contracts, gentlemen's agreements, etc), so why the sudden spate of activity now? Have this going on behind the scenes all season, sort the first team now, surely? I still think that it is a LOT harder to establish and build up a successful academy whilst the first team are in the shit. If you want to use Ipswich and Southampton as examples of good academies at clubs with rubbish first teams feel free, but i'm not particularly keen to use either of those clubs as examples... So, to answer your question, you would have thought so, but i don't see much evidence of it from those in charge of the club. Surely the obvious answer for why we're not throwing money around on the first team is we have little money, so until bids are accepted there isn't much we can do, what does seem to be happening is that the youth players we are chasing most have spent some time at the club on a trial so I don't really see this as taking us too much of our time through the window. There's no point in using either Ipswich or Southampton as examples as to my knowledge neither have gone abroad in search of youth players and have focused on either local talent or players from this country. What I see happening with this club now that we've seen the financial results is that the big earners will need to be moved on before we can progress unless Ashley is going to finance a spending spree which is unlikely, until then I don't see the harm in pushing on with improving our youth set up or our scouting network and I would be chuffed if we produced a quarter of the talent Arsenal has. But the financials gives all the more reason to make a calculated gamble now. Look at Ashley's track record, he is if anything a reckless gambler, which has come back and fucked him up the ass on more than one occasion if various voices in the city are to be believed. Of all people, he must see that if he makes a gamble of somewhere between 20-30m now, he could stand a lot more chance of saving himself the 250m he's spunked on us in the first place. Yes, he didn't realise the state we were in, yes he has lost a lot of money in the last few months due to the economic downturn and probably had his hands burned, but then this surely makes an outlay of this amount far less significant in the grand scheme of his overall losses whilst allowing him to stand a far greater chance to maintain what could become his single biggest asset if sports direct shares carry on ebbing away. If we get relegated we will go into administration if he doesn't spunk immense amounts of cash on us each and every year we are down there, possibly even more than he's spent on us already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It's like watching people hyperventilate in text. Ah, I love this January madness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vigge Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 we ain't signing nobody we're skint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 we ain't signing nobody we're skint. Worse than that - we're on our death bed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 we ain't signing nobody we're skint. Worse than that - we're on our death bed. Aye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatTheFunk Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The best thing we could do now is bring in Houllier as manager. Not only is he a very good, experienced manager, he also has a proven record of youth development - the work he did as Head of Technical Development for the French FA was instrumental in them winning the World Cup and the European Championships. would love him here. Me too, would be amazing. Was the first person we should have turned to when keegan Allardyce left. we would be in a completely different situation right now if he had been brought in. fyp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mackas86 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 cant believe we weren't in the mix for bullard, surely we could of raised 5 mil (the milner money alone would have sufficed), and regardless of the turmoil we are in we are a much bigger club than hull, so if the player had to choose, then im sure it would have been us, on the other hand, optimistically thinking, the reason we weren't in for him could be due to the fact we have 'bigger irons in the fire', or are in negotiations with similar players already , hope to christ i am right Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 cant believe we weren't in the mix for bullard, surely we could of raised 5 mil (the milner money alone would have sufficed), and regardless of the turmoil we are in we are a much bigger club than hull, so if the player had to choose, then im sure it would have been us, on the other hand, optimistically thinking, the reason we weren't in for him could be due to the fact we have 'bigger irons in the fire', or are in negotiations with similar players already , hope to christ i am right Can't see the obsession with Bullard tbh. He would offer nothing more to our team than we already have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 cant believe we weren't in the mix for bullard, surely we could of raised 5 mil (the milner money alone would have sufficed), and regardless of the turmoil we are in we are a much bigger club than hull, so if the player had to choose, then im sure it would have been us, on the other hand, optimistically thinking, the reason we weren't in for him could be due to the fact we have 'bigger irons in the fire', or are in negotiations with similar players already , hope to christ i am right Can't see the obsession with Bullard tbh. He would offer nothing more to our team than we already have. Agreed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Right now whenever we're linked with a CM, my initial question is 'is he better than Nicky Butt?'. Invariably the answer is 'yes, much'. Not saying we should sign him but he's better than what we've got. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Right now whenever we're linked with a CM, my initial question is 'is he better than Nicky Butt?'. Invariably the answer is 'yes, much'. Not saying we should sign him but he's better than what we've got. Same here, its shocking he is probably a first choice when fit player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mackas86 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 its not an obsession, but he is more creative and mobile plus at the end of the day it would be an extra body in our team, would be nice to choose from a bullard/barton/butt/guthrie CM partnership, and we know he can cut it in the prem, might not set the world alight but you always take a gamble when you bring a player in from another league Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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