Tottenham Hotspur

[Hanshithispantz]

38 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

That's not the thought experiment though... We're on about trophies aren't we? 

I dunno what the rules are of this experiment tbf, but if I was a Spurs fan I'd be wanking in the street after last night.

 

You keep saying you'd prefer to be the Europa than the CL so I assume you'd be the same?

[timeEd32]

3 hours ago, Mattoon said:

 

On the pitch, where it matters, we have and we have the momentum too

 

This season and two seasons ago, yes. Last season, no. But good managers, good players, and good seasons come and go. The only constant in football when viewed over a long enough timeframe is that more money means more wins. Until we have gotten closer to them financially we have not surpassed any of them.

[Yorkie]

45 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

I dunno what the rules are of this experiment tbf, but if I was a Spurs fan I'd be wanking in the street after last night.

 

You keep saying you'd prefer to be the Europa than the CL so I assume you'd be the same?

 

Well it's always been "would you take 17th and a trophy" as opposed to "would you take 17th and a trophy which gains you qualification for the CL". I'm just curious to know if the silverware - alone - exempts the laughable domestic campaign. 

 

Re the other point, my mind has changed on that, literally in the last few weeks. Spurs and Man Utd have demonstrated that, to any PL team, winning that competition is no longer the achievement it was. I'm really sad about that; I feel like we had unfinished business in that tournament but the structural changes have really damaged its prestige imo.

[Skeletor]

Spurs really should be stripped of their CL qualification. You can't reward a team that finishes 17th in a league which only has 17 competitive teams with CL football.

[Yorkie]

7 minutes ago, Skeletor said:

Spurs really should be stripped of their CL qualification. You can't reward a team that finishes 17th in a league which only has 17 competitive teams with CL football.

 

But this is what it's framed as now. Please don't create an ESL! How about we expand the Champions League for you? Tell you what, even if you have a shitter in the league, we'll make the Europa League easier to win too as a bit of a safety net.

[80]

To me this whole affair proves that 17th and a trophy doesn't necessarily amount to much. I don't respect this win, the win hasn't elevated Spurs, it's dragged the title down, as Yorkie says.

 

That said, I don't buy this stuff about being upset over them getting a Champions' League spot when they're rubbish. They're the champions of something, whereas Arsenal, Manchester City, Forest and Aston Villa are not. Don't like it, don't call it the Champions' League.

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, 80 said:

To me this whole affair proves that 17th and a trophy doesn't necessarily amount to much. I don't respect this win, the win hasn't elevated Spurs, it's dragged the title down, as Yorkie says.

 

That said, I don't buy this stuff about being upset over them getting a Champions' League spot when they're rubbish. They're the champions of something, whereas Arsenal, Manchester City, Forest and Aston Villa are not. Don't like it, don't call it the Champions' League.

 

Been at work and working backwards

 

80 taketh away, and 80 giveth. The “Champions League” thing is a good point - the root cause of most of this disdain towards last night was the conversion of the European Cup/Champions’ League to the Champions and a load of other guys. The people who should be in the Europa League are in the Champions League, and the other one (the Conference?) should allow clubs from “poorer” leagues a chance to compete for silverware. It doesn’t, and so obviously a league that is incredibly rich but that also - to its credit - has spread those riches around will dominate.

 

The first part? I dunno lads. It’s bonkers to me as a fiftysomething fan that fans of a club that went my entire life on this planet until a couple of weeks ago without winning a trophy are so dismissive. I’m lucky enough to have seen us win a few trophies, but there are many many Spurs fans who have not, and who saw a terrific team and arguably the best Spurs player of the last 50 years somehow fail to win anything at all.

 

I’ll talk about what the win means in practical terms to Spurs (maybe not a lot) elsewhere, but these somewhat abstract questions about whether people “respect” it, or whether it “elevates” us are kinda pointless. I don’t truly “respect” a single thing Chelsea have achieved since Abramovich, or Man City since Abu Dhabi, and I presume almost all of their fans don’t give the slightest shit.

[mouldy_uk]

One of my neighbours (the say ‘hello’ to, but nothing more kind), is wearing a Spurs shirt today. Lived near him for 10+ years and never even knew he was a fan. 
 

Maybe it was his secret shame

[leffe186]

2 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

But this is what it's framed as now. Please don't create an ESL! How about we expand the Champions League for you? Tell you what, even if you have a shitter in the league, we'll make the Europa League easier to win too as a bit of a safety net.

The problem is the expansion of the Champions League. The safety net was allowing people who failed in the CL another chance in the Europa. Taking that away actually makes sense, but without reducing the intake to the CL it runs the risk of what happened this year. Did we earn less money from winning the Europa than you did when getting knocked out of the CL?

[Chicken Dancer]

I’ve no problem with Spurs qualifying for the Champions League as a result of winning the Europa. It’s been that way for many years.

 

It is ridiculous to have 6 English teams in it though.

[Scoreboard82]

2 hours ago, Skeletor said:

Spurs really should be stripped of their CL qualification. You can't reward a team that finishes 17th in a league which only has 17 competitive teams with CL football.

To be fair, it's cup football...of sorts anyway. They were in it due to how they did last season. Doesn't really matter what you do in the league. This is a different competition. Top league teams don't always win the cups. Palace for example. When I was a kid 2nd division (championship) teams like Southampton, West Ham and even that lot down the road won the FA cup.

[Daysleeper]

about spurs or man u tbh

[leffe186]

3 hours ago, Skeletor said:

Spurs really should be stripped of their CL qualification. You can't reward a team that finishes 17th in a league which only has 17 competitive teams with CL football.

You’re rewarding the team that won the Europa League. You may as well say that when West Ham won the FA Cup in 1980 you can’t reward a Second Division team with a place in Europe, or when Wigan won it and got relegated “you can’t reward them etc”. That’s what it’s a reward for. Where they finished in the league is irrelevant.

 

I quite liked that the winner of the Europa got into the CL tbh, well before we did it. I prefer it to the top four/five teams in the top four/five leagues. Again, that’s the root cause of the problem,

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by leffe186

[leffe186]

3 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

Well it's always been "would you take 17th and a trophy" as opposed to "would you take 17th and a trophy which gains you qualification for the CL". I'm just curious to know if the silverware - alone - exempts the laughable domestic campaign. 

 

Re the other point, my mind has changed on that, literally in the last few weeks. Spurs and Man Utd have demonstrated that, to any PL team, winning that competition is no longer the achievement it was. I'm really sad about that; I feel like we had unfinished business in that tournament but the structural changes have really damaged its prestige imo.

 

Do you mean the structural changes to all European competitions or specifically the change to not allow CL dropouts a second chance? If the first then of course, letting so many teams into the CL from the top leagues has damaged the prestige of the other cups.

If the second, then sure, it’s made it easier to win, and that may have affected the prestige. If you like we can let the losers in each knockout round of the CL in to the latter rounds of the EL. That would also make it harder to win and even more prestigious, no?

 

I never liked that idea, just as I never liked the idea of more clubs getting into the CL. Just seemed wrong to me, and I was glad they ditched it anyway, regardless of the fact that we’ve ended up benefitting.

 

To the first point, again, we’re discussing abstract ideas like “does it exempt the domestic campaign?” From what? Criticism? Of course not! You could make a case for it justifying the domestic campaign when you consider all the injuries and fatigue - justifying playing kids and backups - but the concrete points that are worth discussing are “did we win a trophy which is ultimately the point of the club without considering community etc” (Answer: fucking yes) and “are we going to be better next year and going forward?” Answer: No fucking idea. 

Would I take it? To get the monkey off our back, yes. Am I still worried about our development, Ange and next year? Yes.
 

I’ll think about this a bit more to answer Checko (somewhere above) but my feeling is (a) Ange is a bit shite as a technical coach/manager of coaches (b) Ange seems pretty good at building togetherness and team spirit (c) We have a young squad with potential that needs both of the above for development. I’ve found us unwatchable - literally unwatchable - for great swathes of this season and I can’t feel happy about Ange staying on. But…he did what he said he’d do. That’s genuinely bonkers.

 

Levy out.

[Wolfcastle]

Its one thing for shit teams to win the FA cup. They're still in there with good teams, whether they play them or not is a game of chance but they'd be unlikely not to at some point. There are no good teams in the Europa League as they're all in the CL and none drop into it anymore.

Remember saying to a lad at work that it wasn't a shock if Stoke beat Valencia anymore because of the difference in finances. Its even more pronounced with the elite/self appointed elite PL clubs in there

[leffe186]

6 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

I'd be interested to know from @leffe186 if last night is a true test of that age-old thought experiment. I'd argue that '17th in the league' doesn't really tell the whole story here, because 17th is historically bad for Spurs. Their domestic campaign has been absolutely disgraceful given their finance, infrastructure and standing. 

 

If you're Wigan Athletic, you biting hands off if you're offered a cup win and a 17th placed finish.

 

Are you biting hands off if you're a Spurs fan and you're offered a cup win and an absolutely abhorrent 17th placed finish and nine months of unrelenting toxicity? 

Sorry working backwards!

 

Winning a Cup genuinely means a lot in itself. By God I hope you get that, because you’re a Toon fan of an age where I presume you’ve seen one of the best teams the First Division has seen win nothing at all. If you don’t get that now; after winning your first trophy since Altamont, then I genuinely feel sorry for you. And never, ever look up how you got into the Fairs Cup in the first place. Said it elsewhere, I’ve seen us win a fair few trophies but there are thousands of Spurs fans who have never seen us win one. Now they have.

 

It was an absolute mess of a season. I don’t really care specifically where we finished - once we were safe I only cared about the Cup. We were playing janky lineups, resting players constantly, whatever. I care about how the squad and team are developing, and whether we’re progressing. I think the squad is potentially very strong - we have loads of promising kids and some excellent players under 25 - but lacking true class. I’m just not at all convinced about Ange. I don’t understand what we are doing half the time, but truly, winning a trophy can be a fantastic learning experience so…Christ I dunno. If there’s someone good lined up then great. I’d argue Ange might have done the job we wanted him to do.

 

Here’s the kicker though - I’m not a season ticket holder, don’t have the money. People were paying through the nose to watch - as I’ve said many times - often unwatchable football. That’s inexcusable…if you don’t win a trophy as a result . We kinda did though. We lost our three best most creative players in the run-up, but toughed it out. In an often unwatchable final. Those people still had to spend an absolute fortune watching drivel. You get to do that once I think.