Owen's replacement

[Ronaldo]

Said this earlier in the thread but Martins is more than capable of replacing Owen as a player. This "1 in 2" business is a cliche and a bit of a red herring, Dave made a good post about it being better for the team if a striker has more than just a good goal ratio to the side becasue it gives us an extra dimension on the field.

 

A team with 4 players able to create (2 wingers and 2 strikers, will create more chances than a team with 3 players able to create, and more chances mean more goals)

 

Martins goal scoring record isnt bad, but if you add the assists to the number of goals hes scored then you do get a similar ratio of input to team goals as owen.

 

Owen is responsilbe for 28 goals and 1 assit - 29 goals in 62 appereances.

Martins is responsible for 33 goals and 7 assists - 40 goals in 88 appearences .

 

I dont see much difference here, i think id rather have 2 martins up front than 2 Owens.

 

I think its a case of Owen being overated or a case of Martins being underated particulary because his lack of on field inteeligence and his sporadic technique, either way both players have very very similar inputs for the side in terms of goals.

 

very good post

 

both have 6 premiership goals from open play this season, and Martins clearly has more assists

[ElDiablo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

[Ronaldo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

[Thespence]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

[Ronaldo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

 

what's your point? Ronaldo's lucky to still be playing after what his knees have been through.

[ChezGiven]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

 

what's your point? Ronaldo's lucky to still be playing after what his knees have been through.

Aye, daein lady-boys from behind is a real strain on the knee caps.

[Ronaldo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

 

what's your point? Ronaldo's lucky to still be playing after what his knees have been through.

Aye, daein lady-boys from behind is a real strain on the knee caps.

 

see if anyone on this board would know it'd be you

[ChezGiven]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

 

what's your point? Ronaldo's lucky to still be playing after what his knees have been through.

Aye, daein lady-boys from behind is a real strain on the knee caps.

 

see if anyone on this board would know it'd be you

 

The gimp told me.

[ElDiablo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

Yes, average. Would a team with two Martins up front get into Europe? Debatable at best. Get someone in who can find Owen's runs and he will score bucket loads. 9 so far in 11 starts and 5 sub appearances after how we've been playing the majority of the season is pretty fucking good if you ask me.

[Thespence]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

 

what's your point? Ronaldo's lucky to still be playing after what his knees have been through.

 

The way you go in you make it out no decent side will take him, when he is on free he will get a good club. One of the 5 teams competing for a top 4 place this will take a punt on him.

[fredbob]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

 

[Ronaldo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

average? and tell me which great team on the planet would have Michael Owen in their side right now

 

He will get a better club than the bloke you have named yourself after just has.

 

what's your point? Ronaldo's lucky to still be playing after what his knees have been through.

 

The way you go in you make it out no decent side will take him, when he is on free he will get a good club. One of the 5 teams competing for a top 4 place this will take a punt on him.

 

Outside the top 4 or 5, the league is basically bollocks though. I can see managers looking at Martins and thinking, yeah I could make him a great player.

[Thespence]

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

 

How did you get this stat of Martins & 40 goals? Any links?

[ElDiablo]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

[Thespence]

Said this earlier in the thread but Martins is more than capable of replacing Owen as a player. This "1 in 2" business is a cliche and a bit of a red herring, Dave made a good post about it being better for the team if a striker has more than just a good goal ratio to the side becasue it gives us an extra dimension on the field.

 

A team with 4 players able to create (2 wingers and 2 strikers, will create more chances than a team with 3 players able to create, and more chances mean more goals)

 

Martins goal scoring record isnt bad, but if you add the assists to the number of goals hes scored then you do get a similar ratio of input to team goals as owen.

 

Owen is responsilbe for 28 goals and 1 assit - 29 goals in 62 appereances.

Martins is responsible for 33 goals and 7 assists - 40 goals in 88 appearences .

 

I dont see much difference here, i think id rather have 2 martins up front than 2 Owens.

 

I think its a case of Owen being overated or a case of Martins being underated particulary because his lack of on field inteeligence and his sporadic technique, either way both players have very very similar inputs for the side in terms of goals.

 

very good post

 

both have 6 premiership goals from open play this season, and Martins clearly has more assists

 

Who cares how they are scored they all count the same.

[Baggio]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

[fredbob]

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

 

How did you get this stat of Martins & 40 goals? Any links?

 

www.transfermarkt.de

 

Got it off "The German" so its obviously in German, i think 'vorlage' mean assist and you'll need to click on the 'leigestaten' tab on the players profile if thats any help.

[Thespence]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

I reckon Owen has scored more with his head.  Really does how the goal was scored matter?

 

 

[ElDiablo]

 

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

Do you deny that a huge amount of Owen goals go to waste due to lack of natural football brains in our side? Look at Gerrard and him at Liverpool, the understanding they struck up was devastating. Martins is a good player but if you think he can replace Owen you're off your tits.

[Baggio]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

I reckon Owen has scored more with his.  Really does how the goal was scored matter?

 

 

 

I was replying to this part...

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable.

 

I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team.

[fredbob]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

"agenda driven waffle"

 

What are you on mate, its nothing of the sort, it actually my view on the interpretation of stats and as far as im concerned they're pretty accurate.

 

Think about it, your denouncing the importance of assits whilst lauding there importance in the exact same post. Some would call that a contradiction. Take it down to the most simplest denomination:

 

Striker A : 1 goal, 1 assist

Astriker B : 2 goals, 0 assists

 

Manipulate it a little more.

 

Striker C : 30 goals, 0 assists

Striker D : 0 goals, 30 assists

 

Which striker is doing the best for the team? As far as im concerend you can manipulate thsoe stats as much and as little as possible and you'd still get the same results in terms of effectiveness.

 

Dont fall into the aesthetics over practicality trap, its the reason your saying Martins is average.

 

As for the second bit, thats just your rigid belief on what a striker should do, and quite fankly is rubbish.

[Baggio]

 

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

Do you deny that a huge amount of Owen goals go to waste due to lack of natural football brains in our side? Look at Gerrard and him at Liverpool, the understanding they struck up was devastating. Martins is a good player but if you think he can replace Owen you're off your tits.

 

I'm saying that you can't say one would benefit when the other has scored more goals by being put through in the situation you were talking about.

 

I haven't said Martins could replace Owen in terms of goals, however as long as we replace Owen with a player that can get into double figures and hold the ball up then we would improve more as a team than we are now.

[ElDiablo]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

[Thespence]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

I reckon Owen has scored more with his.  Really does how the goal was scored matter?

 

 

 

I was replying to this part...

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable.

 

I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team.

 

I would imagine all strikers would benefit from a intelligent ball playing midfielder. I am not arsed who scores Oba,Owen or Alan Smith it all means the same to me Newcastle United have scored. I hope both Oba & Owen score over 20 goals this season & they can all be pens or 1 yard tap ins as well.

 

Assists can be the biggest myth going, the player who passed the ball to Maradonna before he beat 5 England player in 1986 is hardly worthy of being known as creative force for that goal.

[Ronaldo]

What might be worth remembering is that we've never seen Martins in this league with any real creative midfield force behind him.