Mole_Toonfan Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm assuming as well as wanting him Ashley is probably of the mind that by paying £15m for him we have effectively been given £20m for a year and a half loan by Liverpool. Surely, but I find it hard to believe that your scouts don't have half a dozen better ideas who to spend £15m on. Name them. Every one of them. Now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm assuming as well as wanting him Ashley is probably of the mind that by paying £15m for him we have effectively been given £20m for a year and a half loan by Liverpool. Surely, but I find it hard to believe that your scouts don't have half a dozen better ideas who to spend £15m on. Name them. Every one of them. Now. But, I'm not one of your scouts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidAK Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'd be happy to take him back for £15m if Pards knows exactly how he'll slot into our system, but I just can't (in my admittedly non-manager mind) see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I believe that we can find a top drawer striker for nothing. As such we should never pay a fee for a forward again. Can't think of any candidates and am not prepared to speculate or engage in any meaningful discussion though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I hear Michael Owen is available on a free. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I believe that we can find a top drawer striker for nothing. As such we should never pay a fee for a forward again. Can't think of any candidates and am not prepared to speculate or engage in any meaningful discussion though. Why use such hyperbole?of course there are better players out there for cheaper. I've made the point about cisse,Ba,Hernandez,jelavic.All these players were cheaper and yet more versatile. The reason why we don't know the players are because we don't spend our lives scouting, finding out player valuations and all the rest. This debate has become fucking ridiculous but if you honestly believe that £15m couldn't be better spent, I think you're way off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm serious. We got ba for free let's do it again. It's that easy isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidAK Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I believe that we can find a top drawer striker for nothing. As such we should never pay a fee for a forward again. Can't think of any candidates and am not prepared to speculate or engage in any meaningful discussion though. Why use such hyperbole?of course there are better players out there for cheaper. I've made the point about cisse,Ba,Hernandez,jelavic.All these players were cheaper and yet more versatile. The reason why we don't know the players are because we don't spend our lives scouting, finding out player valuations and all the rest. This debate has become fucking ridiculous but if you honestly believe that £15m couldn't be better spent, I think you're way off This. People can't name the players because they aren't fucking scouts. Same as I can say "Man is capable of travelling to space" but I couldn't explain to you how a fucking rocket works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I believe that we can find a top drawer striker for nothing. As such we should never pay a fee for a forward again. Can't think of any candidates and am not prepared to speculate or engage in any meaningful discussion though. No need to be a baby about it. Our entire team (which finished 5th) cost about the same as Carroll went for. Shouldn't that tell you something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm serious. We got ba for free let's do it again. It's that easy isn't it? Your argument is appalling. When has anyone said we could get a player like Ba for free again. The point that is being made is that £15m can be way better spent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 That lacina Traore We were linked with a year or so ago, moved to AnZhi last month for €18m. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 My point (albeit an appalling one ) is that just because something has been done before (the purchase of cisse et al) does not necessarily mean that the trick can be repeated so easily. If there are options that are as good, but cheaper I'll trust our network to go for them. The fact that they appear to be after Carroll indicates that they think he is the is the best option at present. I'll cede to their opinion if that is ok as you, as you are so keen to stress, are not scouts. In isolation 15m for Carroll looks a decent deal to me. Hope that is a mature enough justification for my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 My point (albeit an appalling one ) is that just because something has been done before (the purchase of cisse et al) does not necessarily mean that the trick can be repeated so easily. If there are options that are as good, but cheaper I'll trust our network to go for them. The fact that they appear to be after Carroll indicates that they think he is the is the best option at present. I'll cede to their opinion if that is ok as you, as you are so keen to stress, are not scouts. In isolation 15m for Carroll looks a decent deal to me. Hope that is a mature enough justification for my view. This is it. If there are so many better, cheaper alternatives available then why wouldn't we go for them instead? Are people seriously suggesting that we've suddenly decided to throw away all our principles and blow a load of money (that might mean we can't do business in other positions) on someone who we aren't sure is good enough? If we're saying 'trust the scouts/board' then why not trust them on this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Having said that, I'm still not sure where he fits into our starting XI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesPaul Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Whether we get him or not I don't care. I just hope this doesn't continue to drag on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Your facetious argument about getting another Ba for free was appalling. Your post you've just made is a good post. As has been argued already, we appear to be in for Carroll very much on an opportunistic basis at the moment. Should it come down to only being able to get him with a full transfer (something around the £15m mark) then I would hope we'd have other targets in mind. If we do get Carroll, I will obviously back him but transfers the whole world over suggest that for £15m you can get better value. Personally, I would have paid £15m for de Jong but that would have been my max Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm sure Carroll got bumped up the list because he became "available" and Svelte Mike spies a deal. We'd have been in for him before De Jong if he was such a priority. Having a chance at signing a player is pretty important part of having them on any list yeah. There isnt really a position to claim you trust how our scouting works but not this transfer, unless you believe fairlytale stories about Mike buying whoever he wants without consultation which have no basis. You've just made that fairy tale up though. Who have we bought who has had this said about them? I can't see any reason why our scouting network would be involved in this deal either. The point about them is that I would trust them to find a more suitable player than Carroll for the money being discussed. You've just said you reckon mike just spies a deal, are you not alluding that hes the main guy controlling this transfer by doing that? Thats the fairytale im talking about. It came about via Pardews initial interview when people were unsure about his comments & several have suggested it. I assume you also meant you cant see why our scouting team wouldnt be involved. The point im making is if you trust them, then there isnt a "more suitable player" in the first place. They are simply rating Carrolls potential ability differently to you and many others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 But Dave, there's no evidence to suggest we're not trying to make other tranfers happen. Who knew about the cisse transfer before it broke?my other point is that we've gone for loan first which would suggest we're looking for a great deal rather than desperate to land Carroll himself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Having said that, I'm still not sure where he fits into our starting XI. I agree with this when it comes to that 4-3-3 formation, but we won't always be able to stick to that and having Carroll can see us go back to 4-4-2 if others are injured/suspended. Cisse and BA won't be available all season and with ACN and Europe we need to be able to play a few types of formations and first XI's which Carroll can give us a good option for. The strange thing is that my first XI and formation preference would be with Carroll on the bench if we got him, which I suppose leads me to think it's a waste of money to spend nearly £20m on a player to be not first choice if everyone is fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Has there been any indication so far that this is anything other than Ashley and Pardew trying to take advantage of a unexpected situation? If Rodgers hadn't put Carroll in the window I doubt we'd be in for him. Going in strongly for De Jong before all this kicked off probably proves this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Having said that, I'm still not sure where he fits into our starting XI. I agree with this when it comes to that 4-3-3 formation, but we won't always be able to stick to that and having Carroll can see us go back to 4-4-2 if others are injured/suspended. Cisse and BA won't be available all season and with ACN and Europe we need to be able to play a few types of formations and first XI's which Carroll can give us a good option for. The strange thing is that my first XI and formation preference would be with Carroll on the bench if we got him, which I suppose leads me to think it's a waste of money to spend nearly £20m on a player to be not first choice if everyone is fit. And I can't believe Ashley would sanction that. My biggest worry about all this is how much input Pardew has. It's all well and good saying that the more good players the better, but you have to be realistic about who's going to be playing almost every week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm sure Carroll got bumped up the list because he became "available" and Svelte Mike spies a deal. We'd have been in for him before De Jong if he was such a priority. Having a chance at signing a player is pretty important part of having them on any list yeah. There isnt really a position to claim you trust how our scouting works but not this transfer, unless you believe fairlytale stories about Mike buying whoever he wants without consultation which have no basis. You've just made that fairy tale up though. Who have we bought who has had this said about them? I can't see any reason why our scouting network would be involved in this deal either. The point about them is that I would trust them to find a more suitable player than Carroll for the money being discussed. You've just said you reckon mike just spies a deal, are you not alluding that hes the main guy controlling this transfer by doing that? Thats the fairytale im talking about. It came about via Pardews initial interview when people were unsure about his comments & several have suggested it. I assume you also meant you cant see why our scouting team wouldnt be involved. The point im making is if you trust them, then there isnt a "more suitable player" in the first place. They are simply rating Carrolls potential ability differently to you and many others. I don't see why the scouts are involved at all. Ashley can see a good deal (in his eyes) and Pardew has clearly given the go ahead to it. It's probably no more complicated that that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Your facetious argument about getting another Ba for free was appalling. Your post you've just made is a good post. As has been argued already, we appear to be in for Carroll very much on an opportunistic basis at the moment. Should it come down to only being able to get him with a full transfer (something around the £15m mark) then I would hope we'd have other targets in mind. If we do get Carroll, I will obviously back him but transfers the whole world over suggest that for £15m you can get better value. Personally, I would have paid £15m for de Jong but that would have been my max How is this "opportunistic" claim discrediting the idea of the transfer? Its normal to weigh up your chance of getting a player with your assessment of his ability. They dont forget all their other targets and their comparable ability/value simply because Carroll might want to join again. If they think better players who are cheaper would also be willing to join us theyd prioritize those instead. The whole "Oh we're just going for him cause hes available" argument makes no sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 My point (albeit an appalling one ) is that just because something has been done before (the purchase of cisse et al) does not necessarily mean that the trick can be repeated so easily. If there are options that are as good, but cheaper I'll trust our network to go for them. The fact that they appear to be after Carroll indicates that they think he is the is the best option at present. I'll cede to their opinion if that is ok as you, as you are so keen to stress, are not scouts. In isolation 15m for Carroll looks a decent deal to me. Hope that is a mature enough justification for my view. This is it. If there are so many better, cheaper alternatives available then why wouldn't we go for them instead? Are people seriously suggesting that we've suddenly decided to throw away all our principles and blow a load of money (that might mean we can't do business in other positions) on someone who we aren't sure is good enough? If we're saying 'trust the scouts/board' then why not trust them on this? People expecting NUFC to carry on with their brilliant dealings in the transfer market. Says a lot that getting £20m for a two-year loan doesn't measure up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 This idea of us going for a 'great deal' is bullshit though. It's a greater deal to not spend that money on the same person again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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