Hillsborough disaster

[Stu]

Just a couple of questions:

 

(I have the faintest of memories of coming home from a day out, my dad wanted to watch the match on Grandstand but they had this horrendous tragedy instead - I was three at the time.)

 

 

Ok, the main stand is already full, there are other sections with less fans (maybe some of these left the already full section because it was already full), the police decided to open a large gate and let those not already into the ground swarm into the already full area.

 

Do I think the amount of ticketless fans would have any bearing on the outcome in relation to the total number of fans with tickets (including those sent there from other parts of the ground) that were waiting to get in, then no I don't.

 

The decision should of been made to delay kick off.

 

How did the police outside the ground know what was happening inside the tunnel/pen? [not accounting for the police control room - I don't suppose radio communication was particularly responsive/effective in 1989]

 

 

 

Some sensible posts by Madras, mrmojorisin75 and Shearergol.

 

For those who stupidly insist the police should take 100% of the blame, you need to take a good long look at yourselves. Some of the posts that appear to completely absolve people of individual responsibility are quite shocking. Yes, we have a Police force and they got it wrong, but individuals have to accept responsibility for their actions otherwise we'd have anarchy. It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly. Both are to blame.

 

 

So you think that the Taylor enquiry and subsiquent report were wrong too then?

 

I shouldn't think they are, in the main, but surely the basis of HTL's post stands...the police didn't literally force the Liverpool fans down the tunnel, at some point the message should have been relayed through the crowd to push back and stop going forward by the Liverpool fans.

 

 

Speaking from personal experience, having been 'trapped' at the front of several 20,000 - 40,000 strong [drunken] crowds, it's often uncomfortable but whenever it becomes anything more than that, the crowd naturally begin to organise themselves to push back against the swell and create some breathing space [if only for a few minutes]

[Howaythelads]

Some sensible posts by Madras, mrmojorisin75 and Shearergol.

 

For those who stupidly insist the police should take 100% of the blame, you need to take a good long look at yourselves. Some of the posts that appear to completely absolve people of individual responsibility are quite shocking. Yes, we have a Police force and they got it wrong, but individuals have to accept responsibility for their actions otherwise we'd have anarchy. It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly. Both are to blame.

 

 

So you think that the Taylor enquiry and subsiquent report were wrong too then?

 

You can cling to that all you like, mate. If you want to take every government sponsored report as 100% gospel then you're as naive as they come.

 

Think "scapegoat" and you'll be on the right lines.

[Guest toonlass]

Some sensible posts by Madras, mrmojorisin75 and Shearergol.

 

For those who stupidly insist the police should take 100% of the blame, you need to take a good long look at yourselves. Some of the posts that appear to completely absolve people of individual responsibility are quite shocking. Yes, we have a Police force and they got it wrong, but individuals have to accept responsibility for their actions otherwise we'd have anarchy. It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly. Both are to blame.

 

 

So you think that the Taylor enquiry and subsiquent report were wrong too then?

 

You can cling to that all you like, mate. If you want to take every government sponsored report as 100% gospel then you're as naive as they come.

 

Think "scapegoat" and you'll be on the right lines.

 

Surely a government sponsored report would be biased towards its own police force if it was going to be biased? It would have been a lot easier to blame the football fans wouldn't it? Lord Justice Taylor absolved the fans from blame, something you would realise had you even bothered to read the report or any subsequent articles reporting on it. This was done after 31 days of evidence from all sides including CCTV footage from inside and outside the ground. At the end of the day you are basing your argument not on fact but on your own opinion of Liverpool's fans.

[Guest toonlass]

Just a couple of questions:

 

(I have the faintest of memories of coming home from a day out, my dad wanted to watch the match on Grandstand but they had this horrendous tragedy instead - I was three at the time.)

 

 

Ok, the main stand is already full, there are other sections with less fans (maybe some of these left the already full section because it was already full), the police decided to open a large gate and let those not already into the ground swarm into the already full area.

 

Do I think the amount of ticketless fans would have any bearing on the outcome in relation to the total number of fans with tickets (including those sent there from other parts of the ground) that were waiting to get in, then no I don't.

 

The decision should of been made to delay kick off.

 

How did the police outside the ground know what was happening inside the tunnel/pen? [not accounting for the police control room - I don't suppose radio communication was particularly responsive/effective in 1989]

 

We are talking the late 1980's here, not the late 1880's. Radio communication was used to communicate between police officers.

 

Some sensible posts by Madras, mrmojorisin75 and Shearergol.

 

For those who stupidly insist the police should take 100% of the blame, you need to take a good long look at yourselves. Some of the posts that appear to completely absolve people of individual responsibility are quite shocking. Yes, we have a Police force and they got it wrong, but individuals have to accept responsibility for their actions otherwise we'd have anarchy. It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly. Both are to blame.

 

 

So you think that the Taylor enquiry and subsiquent report were wrong too then?

 

I shouldn't think they are, in the main, but surely the basis of HTL's post stands...the police didn't literally force the Liverpool fans down the tunnel, at some point the message should have been relayed through the crowd to push back and stop going forward by the Liverpool fans.

 

 

Speaking from personal experience, having been 'trapped' at the front of several 20,000 - 40,000 strong [drunken] crowds, it's often uncomfortable but whenever it becomes anything more than that, the crowd naturally begin to organise themselves to push back against the swell and create some breathing space [if only for a few minutes]

 

The police admitted that normally police or stewards would have been placed at the top of the tunnel to stop the fans from going down the tunnel if the pens were full. They could not explain why they had not placed anyone at the tunnel that day. Simply having police or stewards placed correctly to stop the fans from entering the tunnel could have averted the tragedy.

[magpie418]

some think a mindless minority adding to it as they had done many times before.

 

funny thast those saying that tend not to put words in others mouths.

 

What are these words I'm supposed to be putting into other peoples mouths? What were the 'mindless minority' adding too? (honest question)

 

It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly.

 

What were theses actions by some, exactly? and why would the police give in to them?

[magpie418]

Just a couple of questions:

 

How did the police outside the ground know what was happening inside the tunnel/pen? [not accounting for the police control room - I don't suppose radio communication was particularly responsive/effective in 1989]

 

 

Good question, who knows? a decision was made to open a gate letting in a large body of fans, if that decision was made before either radio/face contact with officers/stewards outside the ground/inside the stand then of course it will have an impact on the confusion.

 

The decision was made to open the gate, this decision seems to of been made before adequate instructions had been passed to those on foot. You have to ask why they were rushed, and this seems to be where opinions on here is divided.

 

My belief is simple, they didn't want to delay kick off. (maybe ITV are to blame).

 

 

[Wallace]

Just a couple of questions:

 

How did the police outside the ground know what was happening inside the tunnel/pen? [not accounting for the police control room - I don't suppose radio communication was particularly responsive/effective in 1989]

 

 

Good question, who knows? a decision was made to open a gate letting in a large body of fans, if that decision was made before either radio/face contact with officers/stewards outside the ground/inside the stand then of course it will have an impact on the confusion.

 

The decision was made to open the gate, this decision seems to of been made before adequate instructions had been passed to those on foot. You have to ask why they were rushed, and this seems to be where opinions on here is divided.

 

My belief is simple, they didn't want to delay kick off. (maybe ITV are to blame).

 

 

 

I don't think they really delayed kick-offs back then.  I am sure that was something that was recommended after Hillsborough.  And the game was not broadcast live - the live coverage came about because it became a news item and so Grandstand switched to it.

[Neil]

Just on a bit of a tangent, finally found the poem I read on an Everton forum last year. A bit off-topic for a Newcastle forum, but I thought it was brilliant all the same, and it seems to stick in my mind whenever Hillsborough is mentioned:

 

"I bought a scarf at the match today, you know, the way you do.

The bloke at the stall said: 'Which one our kid, the Red one, or The Blue'?

 

Well I've followed the Blue's most of me life, since I was a little boy

And school dragged on all week you know, but on Saturday, what joy.

 

Me mate Billy and me would kick a ball about down Scottie Road, and the streets all around.

Though he was Red, and I was Blue, we'd dream of our own hallowed grounds.

 

Well the years rolled by and we were still footy daft, and we'd meet for a Bevv'y at night.

You'll never walk alone, Billy would sing to me, laughing, with all his might.

 

Then Hillsborough came, and my mate Billy died, in a special kind of hell.

As the Sun shone on untouched turf, my mate Billy fell.

 

I watched the telly that night alone. Sat there numb and just cried.

The game had ended, before it began, for Billy and the rest who died.

 

I bought a Scarf at the match today, and I turned to the bloke and said:

'My mate Billy would be 30 today, I'll take two mate, a Blue one...And a Red'."

[madras]

some think a mindless minority adding to it as they had done many times before.

 

funny thast those saying that tend not to put words in others mouths.

 

What are these words I'm supposed to be putting into other peoples mouths? What were the 'mindless minority' adding too? (honest question)

 

It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly.

 

What were theses actions by some, exactly? and why would the police give in to them?

the pushing and crushing outside the ground that lead to the police making the decision to open the gate.

 

 

surely following this to its logical conclusion means that the belgian authorities were to blame for heysel as it was their failure to act on the actions of the fans that day ?

[magpie418]

]the pushing and crushing outside the ground that lead to the police making the decision to open the gate.

 

Why not contain this 'pushing and shoving' outside the ground where there was plenty of room for the police to do their job? Why open the gates in full knowledge that the 'pushing and shoving' mass would move inside the ground with potential safety issues?

 

Why when the decision to open the gate was made was there not any communication with officers/stewards inside the ground to filter this 'pushing and shoving' crowd into the emptier areas?

 

Why not delay kick off to alleviate any 'pushing and shoving' and make the fans outside not feel rushed to get inside the ground?

 

If your opinion is correct, then why did the police give in to the actions of a minority of fans? why did they make a decision to do something that could not be reversed and obviously had huge potential safety issues?

 

Why when the easiest and safest decision to make was to delay the kick off, did they choose the most dangerous option?

 

surely following this to its logical conclusion means that the belgian authorities were to blame for heysel as it was their failure to act on the actions of the fans that day ?

 

That is another thread mate, I'm not getting into that here. (but the segregation was crap).

[Guest toonlass]

some think a mindless minority adding to it as they had done many times before.

 

funny thast those saying that tend not to put words in others mouths.

 

What are these words I'm supposed to be putting into other peoples mouths? What were the 'mindless minority' adding too? (honest question)

 

It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly.

 

What were theses actions by some, exactly? and why would the police give in to them?

the pushing and crushing outside the ground that lead to the police making the decision to open the gate.

 

 

surely following this to its logical conclusion means that the belgian authorities were to blame for heysel as it was their failure to act on the actions of the fans that day ?

 

So why didn't the police do what they did the year before when both teams met in the semi-final at Hillsborough, and set up a cordon away from the ground which didn't let the ticketless fans near the turnstiles. Survivors are well documented saying that they were surprised that this had not happened as it had been there for the previous semi-final in 1988. Add to that the police not allowing many Liverpool fans with tickets for other parts of Hillsborough go to their ticketed seats and you were bound to have mayhem and congestion at the turnstiles.

[madras]

]the pushing and crushing outside the ground that lead to the police making the decision to open the gate.

 

Why not contain this 'pushing and shoving' outside the ground where there was plenty of room for the police to do their job? Why open the gates in full knowledge that the 'pushing and shoving' mass would move inside the ground with potential safety issues?

 

Why when the decision to open the gate was made was there not any communication with officers/stewards inside the ground to filter this 'pushing and shoving' crowd into the emptier areas?

 

Why not delay kick off to alleviate any 'pushing and shoving' and make the fans outside not feel rushed to get inside the ground?

 

If your opinion is correct, then why did the police give in to the actions of a minority of fans? why did they make a decision to do something that could not be reversed and obviously had huge potential safety issues?

 

Why when the easiest and safest decision to make was to delay the kick off, did they choose the most dangerous option?

 

surely following this to its logical conclusion means that the belgian authorities were to blame for heysel as it was their failure to act on the actions of the fans that day ?

 

That is another thread mate, I'm not getting into that here. (but the segregation was crap).

just this week some police force down south appologised for not pulling in a rapist when they should've,they made huge errors which lead to him carrying on attacking women for an extra year or so........but we'll just blame the police and not the rapist eh ?

 

at no point do i say the fans are solely to blame, at no point do i say the police done anything less than a shit job on the day but (there it goes again !) the police could only do a poor job because of the actions of the fans.

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

]the pushing and crushing outside the ground that lead to the police making the decision to open the gate.

 

Why not contain this 'pushing and shoving' outside the ground where there was plenty of room for the police to do their job? Why open the gates in full knowledge that the 'pushing and shoving' mass would move inside the ground with potential safety issues?

 

Why when the decision to open the gate was made was there not any communication with officers/stewards inside the ground to filter this 'pushing and shoving' crowd into the emptier areas?

 

Why not delay kick off to alleviate any 'pushing and shoving' and make the fans outside not feel rushed to get inside the ground?

 

If your opinion is correct, then why did the police give in to the actions of a minority of fans? why did they make a decision to do something that could not be reversed and obviously had huge potential safety issues?

 

Why when the easiest and safest decision to make was to delay the kick off, did they choose the most dangerous option?

 

surely following this to its logical conclusion means that the belgian authorities were to blame for heysel as it was their failure to act on the actions of the fans that day ?

 

That is another thread mate, I'm not getting into that here. (but the segregation was crap).

just this week some police force down south appologised for not pulling in a rapist when they should've,they made huge errors which lead to him carrying on attacking women for an extra year or so........but we'll just blame the police and not the rapist eh ?

 

at no point do i say the fans are solely to blame, at no point do i say the police done anything less than a shit job on the day but (there it goes again !) the police could only do a poor job because of the actions of the fans.

 

 

 

Not at all, the police did a poor job POLICING the event, they allowed ticketless fans to get to the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end by not having a cordon set away from the ground, and once they were caught up in the bottleneck of fans they were stuck in the crush on the outside of the ground. Had the police done what they did the year before and set up the cordons then they could have prevented ticketless fans getting to the turnstiles. Add to that the police forcing fans to the Leppings Lane end of the ground regardless of where they had tickets for, and the late arrival of fans due to the motorway and train delays and you got a massive crush. The police wrongly directing fans to the Leppings Lane end of the ground and the late arrival of fans caused the crush. You cannot put more people into an area that it is fit to contain without it becoming overcrowded.

[magpie418]

just this week some police force down south appologised for not pulling in a rapist when they should've,they made huge errors which lead to him carrying on attacking women for an extra year or so........but we'll just blame the police and not the rapist eh ?

 

Outrageous! (I'll be writing to my MP!)

 

at no point do i say the fans are solely to blame, at no point do i say the police done anything less than a s*** job on the day but (there it goes again !) the police could only do a poor job because of the actions of the fans.

 

I have never said that either your good self, or anyone else on this thread, have said that the fans were solely to blame. (I would find those with such a view inhuman).

 

As for your 'but..', we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all.

 

i think you've nailed it with this tbh...and at the risk of getting strung up i understand it, posted ages back that people really need to remember how bad fans were in those days and also how bad the police force were in the 80's (guildford, birmingham as the most high profile)

 

the police in those days viewed anyone dodgy as an enemy and treated them accordingly...i mean they still do for fucks sake, look at the poor brazilian boy who got shot and how the inquiry to that went down

 

i pride myself on being able to be able to see both sides of everything and i think that events and the behaviour of football fans late 70's onwards were always leading to this - imagine being the coppers outnumbered however many hundred to one by people they viewed as the enemy!  not to excuse it but it is entirely understandable

 

and that's that

[magpie418]

also how bad the police force were in the 80's (guildford, birmingham as the most high profile)

 

I raise you one: link

[mrmojorisin75]

also how bad the police force were in the 80's (guildford, birmingham as the most high profile)

 

I raise you one: link

 

fuck yeah, that one slipped my mind big time

[NE5]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl crowds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

The fencing was of course a huge factor, and it was good and right that they were all taken down. Too late for those who tragically died, but it certainly wasn't the sole fault of the police.

 

 

 

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

crux of the matter mate, actual numbers vs expected - i'd love to know

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

toonlass, as an obvious fountain of knowledge here is the general consensus that the number of fans at the game was within the limits of the stadium?