Hillsborough disaster

[NE5]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

[NE5]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

[NE5]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change my mind.

 

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

[NE5]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

 

Also fact, like most of my opinions, and also the view that people take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Now, get back onto the thread, or stop accusing me of derailing it.....

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

 

Also fact, like most of my opinions, and also the view that people take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Now, get back onto the thread, or stop accusing me of derailing it.....

 

 

 

ok back on topic, why not try answering these questions.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

[cp40]

FFS

[NE5]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

 

Also fact, like most of my opinions, and also the view that people take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Now, get back onto the thread, or stop accusing me of derailing it.....

 

 

 

ok back on topic, why not try answering these questions.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

Are the police responsible for Liverpool fans travelling without tickets ? Are the police responsible for the traffic jams ? Were the police responsible for ticket distribution and allocation ?

 

Were you never jammed into a crowd in the days before all seater stadiums yourself ?

 

Do you absolutely and completely believe the findings of every government enquiry at face value ?

 

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

 

Also fact, like most of my opinions, and also the view that people take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Now, get back onto the thread, or stop accusing me of derailing it.....

 

 

 

ok back on topic, why not try answering these questions.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

Are the police responsible for Liverpool fans travelling without tickets ? Are the police responsible for the traffic jams ? Were the police responsible for ticket distribution and allocation ?

 

Were you never jammed into a crowd in the days before all seater stadiums yourself ?

 

Do you believe absolutely and completely believe the findings of every government enquiry at face value ?

 

 

 

 

Answering questions with questions is not really answering the question.

 

Anyway to answer yours (and then you might be as polite as to answer mine)

 

No the police are not responsible for people travelling without tickets. But the police were not stupid, they would have known that there would be an element of fans without tickets (they had understood that they year before when they had set up cordons to stop ticketless fans getting close to the turnstiles).

 

The police were not responsible for the traffic jams, the unnanouced roadworks were. But the police would have known about them and would have known that there had been a significant number of coaches held up in the jam. Unless of course police don't communicate with each other.

 

Were police responsible for ticket allocation and distribution? Of course not, the police are responsible for POLICING. They failed to police the football fans outside and inside the ground. They also forced fans with tickets for other area of Hillsborough to go to the Leppings Lane end therefore creating overcrowding themselves. They must have realised that if fans were not in the place they had tickets for and in the Leppings Lane end that this would increase the number of people in that area.

 

Yes, I have been squashed in at football matches and at concerts and I had no control over who was squashing me at the back of the pen.

 

No I don't believe every government report, why would a biased report find the police at fault rather than the football fans? Surely a government report that was biased in this case would have contained the opposite findings?

 

Now would you like to answer the questions I asked you? I still don't think you will though.

[NE5]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

 

Also fact, like most of my opinions, and also the view that people take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Now, get back onto the thread, or stop accusing me of derailing it.....

 

 

 

ok back on topic, why not try answering these questions.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

Are the police responsible for Liverpool fans travelling without tickets ? Are the police responsible for the traffic jams ? Were the police responsible for ticket distribution and allocation ?

 

Were you never jammed into a crowd in the days before all seater stadiums yourself ?

 

Do you believe absolutely and completely believe the findings of every government enquiry at face value ?

 

 

 

 

Answering questions with questions is not really answering the question.

 

Anyway to answer yours (and then you might be as polite as to answer mine)

 

No the police are not responsible for people travelling without tickets. But the police were not stupid, they would have known that there would be an element of fans without tickets (they had understood that they year before when they had set up cordons to stop ticketless fans getting close to the turnstiles).

 

The police were not responsible for the traffic jams, the unnanouced roadworks were. But the police would have known about them and would have known that there had been a significant number of coaches held up in the jam. Unless of course police don't communicate with each other.

 

Were police responsible for ticket allocation and distribution? Of course not, the police are responsible for POLICING. They failed to police the football fans outside and inside the ground. They also forced fans with tickets for other area of Hillsborough to go to the Leppings Lane end therefore creating overcrowding themselves. They must have realised that if fans were not in the place they had tickets for and in the Leppings Lane end that this would increase the number of people in that area.

 

Yes, I have been squashed in at football matches and at concerts and I had no control over who was squashing me at the back of the pen.

 

No I don't believe every government report, why would a biased report find the police at fault rather than the football fans? Surely a government report that was biased in this case would have contained the opposite findings?

 

Now would you like to answer the questions I asked you? I still don't think you will though.

 

blimey, you don't give up do you 

 

No of course the fans weren't responsible for there being no cordon, nor are they responsible for the actions of the police and stewards - your own words. Neither are they responsible for the design of the stadium, the exits and size of the sections of terraces. 

 

So you are now saying that the police weren't solely responsible, precisely what some of us have been saying. For the 3rd time, nobody is saying that mistakes were made and some things could have been done differently but people are responsible for their own actions and you simply can't put all the blame on the police, which is what you are saying.

 

 

[madras]

did the police tell all those fans to push towards the turnstiles/gate ?

[magpie418]

did the police tell all those fans to push towards the turnstiles/gate ?

 

I used to love it as a kid getting into football grounds back in the eighties, the mass of fellow fans heading in the same direction. I always enjoyed the moving as one moments, feet occasionally lifting up from the ground, carried along in a sea of black and white, 'hey man, how man, hey man, how man', the smell of beer in the air, the scent of an old leather jacket pressed against my nose, always a tab burning my ear, the jokes and laughter, the slow steady movement until the light got brighter and you finally emerged with the crowd noise ringing in your ears, that sound, the sound of the match about to kick off, nothing else like it, nothing in the world.

 

 

 

 

[madras]

did the police tell all those fans to push towards the turnstiles/gate ?

 

I used to love it as a kid getting into football grounds back in the eighties, the mass of fellow fans heading in the same direction. I always enjoyed the moving as one moments, feet occasionally lifting up from the ground, carried along in a sea of black and white, 'hey man, how man, hey man, how man', the smell of beer in the air, the scent of an old leather jacket pressed against my nose, always a tab burning my ear, the jokes and laughter, the slow steady movement until the light got brighter and you finally emerged with the crowd noise ringing in your ears, that sound, the sound of the match about to kick off, nothing else like it, nothing in the world.

 

 

 

 

i never liked after barnsley away when i got trapped up against a wall and didn't think i'd get out.

 

those were the times though........football fans wanted to do that and the police were quite prepared to let them. it's only when someone gets hurt that anything is thought about being done.

 

[Guest north shields lad]

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/03/how-should-foot.html

[Stu]

Fans blamed for Ivorian stampede

 

Ticketless fans were behind Sunday's stadium stampede that left 22 people dead in Ivory Coast, officials say.

 

The government has promised an inquiry into the tragedy which left 130 people injured at the Houphouet-Boigny arena in the biggest city, Abidjan.

 

Police tried to keep the crowds back with tear gas but a wall collapsed and in the panic fans were crushed.

 

Many casualties were treated at the stadium as the match went ahead and hosts Ivory Coast beat Malawi 5-0.

 

The national football association had told those without the prized tickets to stay away.

 

"Some spectators who didn't have tickets tried to force their way in"

Dagobert Banzio

Sports Minister

 

 

 

But thousands ignored the message hoping to see Ivory Coast's Europe-based football stars.

 

The big attraction was home-grown hero Didier Drogba, who is regarded almost as a demi-god by his countrymen, says BBC Ivory Coast correspondent John James.

 

The Chelsea striker - who had missed the previous round of qualifiers due to injury - scored twice, but the victory was overshadowed by what happened off the pitch.

 

'Extreme sorrow'

 

Fifa President Sepp Blatter said: "I wish to express extreme sorrow and extend our condolences to the Ivorian football community and, most importantly, to family, friends and loved ones following the tragic deaths in Abidjan yesterday."

 

Our correspondent says it seems many fans were angry when the gates were shut.

 

A crowd of supporters without tickets were reportedly pushing and shoving 40 minutes before the start of the game.

 

 

 

Ivorian Sports Minister Dagobert Banzio said there seemed to be more people outside the 35,000-capacity stadium than inside.

 

"Some spectators who didn't have tickets tried to force their way in," he said.

 

"Unfortunately they broke down one of the big gates and in the stampede people were crushed."

 

The arena has just been refurbished but our correspondent says at this stage it seems the sheer number of people who wanted to get into the match proved too much.

 

Other Europe-based stars playing in Sunday's game were Drogba's Chelsea team-mate Salomon Kalou, as well as Kolo Toure and Emmanuel Eboue of Arsenal.

 

The home side also featured Tottenham's Didier Zokora, Sevilla's Ndri Romaric and Marseille forward Bakari Kone.

 

 

 

Ticketless fans obviously have no effect...

[Shearergol]

And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground?

 

are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ?

 

toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous

 

 

 

If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole.

 

I answer direct questions a lot more than a lot of people on here. I see you have never demanded Ozzie Mandiarse in particular answer the question I asked him for weeks, at least. I've told you what I think, and you haven't stated anything that will change my mind. Nobody is saying some things were done badly, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Whatever. You seem quite obsessed with this, almost as much as you are obsessed with me. Any reason why ?

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Are you prepared to answer any of the questions in the post above or just hijack this thread?

 

Hijack the thread ? What are you talking about woman 

 

 

 

Taking the thread off topic, re-read your post before this one. Nothing to do with the subject.

 

its just a reply to you. There are plenty of people putting up points here, if you aren't obsessed.

 

You won't change your mind.

 

 

 

 

My opinion is based on fact, your's is based on?

 

Also fact, like most of my opinions, and also the view that people take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Now, get back onto the thread, or stop accusing me of derailing it.....

 

 

 

ok back on topic, why not try answering these questions.

 

Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games?

 

You said ticketless fans had no impact.

[Guest Scouseman]

"Unfortunately they broke down one of the big gates and in the stampede people were crushed."

 

 

That never happened at Hillsborough though so the comparisons don't match.    Ticketless fans didn't have any impact in Sheffield in '89. 

 

If they have the impact you suggest, without breaking doors down, why isn't there a Hillsborough at every big game now because ticketless fans of all clubs are more in number now than they ever were.

[madras]

"Unfortunately they broke down one of the big gates and in the stampede people were crushed."

 

 

That never happened at Hillsborough though so the comparisons don't match.    Ticketless fans didn't have any impact in Sheffield in '89. 

 

If they have the impact you suggest, without breaking doors down, why isn't there a Hillsborough at every big game now because ticketless fans of all clubs are more in number now than they ever were.

did the police force fans to push against the turnstiles/gates ?

 

if ticketless fans hadn't been there would there have been less people doing it hence less force ?

 

before anyone jumps in i'll say it again..yes the police fucked up and should've stopped the situation happening but they didn't and that does not excuse fans of any club pushing like that to get in anywhere.

[Guest Scouseman]

Have you ever entertained the thought that the crowd build up was caused by lack of turnstile at the Leppings Lane end of the ground?  Three times as many at the other end of the ground on the day as far as I know.

[madras]

Have you ever entertained the thought that the crowd build up was caused by lack of turnstile at the Leppings Lane end of the ground?  Three times as many at the other end of the ground on the day as far as I know.

yes i have. i've been there several times. our fans done the same thing.........i thought they were wrong for doing it.

[magpie418]

 

Police tried to keep the crowds back with tear gas but a wall collapsed and in the panic fans were crushed.

 

 

What happens to people who get a face full of tear gas?

 

That comment above doesn't say people were killed by the collapsing wall, they were killed in the panic. I'm sure if the police were shooting tear gas into the crowd, there would be plenty to panic about (if you could see where you were going for a start).

 

I don't know about anyone else but i'm keeping an open mind on this, looks to me like the bloody polis could be responsible again!

 

 

 

 

[magpie418]

Being serious and back on topic, I would suggest that people have a read of the times article posted by nsl above, including the comments.

 

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/03/how-should-foot.html

[Stu]

On a day when twenty fans have died due to crushing in the Ivory Coast it is time to give all who have died in such disasters a dignified remembrance. That is to mourn quietly. To celebrate life equally. To not involve the media.

To do otherwise leaves one open to exploiting tragic loss of life.

 

Look at how we remember the Ibrox Disaster. Look at how Bradford City reflect upon their awful fire. Observe how F.C. Torino act as a club when remembering the air disaster that wiped out arguably the greatest team ever in Italian history.

 

Quiet dignity.

 

No raking over smouldering coals. Simple services mourning loss. Fingers could be pointed, but through media mud-slinging? Is that the way to remember loss of life? There is a time and a place to challenge authorities. There is a manner in which to do it too.

 

There is a danger that constantly bringing Hillsborough - and indeed Munich - into the wider public eye is counter-productive. It makes the clubs involved look as though they have a "monopoly" on the tragedies of sporting life. It makes it look as though each club is exploiting the "romance" of disaster and morphing it into part of their "brand". A way of winning over new fans, if you will.

 

The more one sees mourning at certain clubs turn into five-yearly media events the more one feels the need to switch off. One can't help but feel that to some, a life at Hillsborough was somehow more special than a life at Ibrox or Valley Parade. A dead player at Munich far more special than a dead player from Torino.

 

 

I hope that those who died in the Ivory Coast did not suffer. I wish them an everlasting peace and hope that their deaths are remembered with dignity, free from any sense of media exploitation. Deep down I know I need rest easy. Knowing how things work, I'm very sure that these African souls will be long, long forgotten when the media circus of Hillsborough's fiftieth anniversary rolls into view.