Guest Scouseman Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Games weren't all, all ticket in the 80's. Liverpool got to a lot of finals and semis so it stands to reason that they'd be involved in travelling without tickets more than other fans, but all fans did the same if they got there, just the same as they do today. I didn't say it was ok. I said it's irrelevent because it was nothing new, the police knew it happened, and had done since big matches became all ticket going back in the mists of time. Same as they knew that drinking is a big part of a match day, all of that was accepted as a matter of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 But that's exactly why people are trying to make the point that it wasn't 100% the fault of the police. If the ticketless fans weren't there, the problem wouldn't have been there either. To say that it was part and parcel of the game is irrelevent. You have to factor in the fans sent to that end with tickets for other parts of the ground, plus the huge amount of fans with tickets still to arrive (of which it appears the vast majority arrived at roughly the same time). This in itself should of been policed properly, It would of been quite clear to the authorities that there were many fans who were arriving late due to traffic problems. And I ask those that consider the ticketless fans responsible for the causing the opening of the gate - Why did the police give in to the actions of a small section of fans? You don't have to be a maths teacher to work out that adding extra people to a sold out section would be somewhat of a problem. Why did they not do their job which is to provide safety to the public, and instead make a decision which they should of known would of had huge potential safety problems? Why did they not delay the kick off to alleviate any sense of loosing control of the amount of fans trying to get in? would delaying the game of been seen as a sign of weakness by the police authorities in charge, an inability to 'keep things in order'? (i'm referring here to a comment made above that delay's were uncommon then, the officer in charge was wet around the ears according to the report, and may of not wanted to appear unable to deal with the situation, so just decided to 'let them all in'). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 But that's exactly why people are trying to make the point that it wasn't 100% the fault of the police. If the ticketless fans weren't there, the problem wouldn't have been there either. To say that it was part and parcel of the game is irrelevent. You have to factor in the fans sent to that end with tickets for other parts of the ground, plus the huge amount of fans with tickets still to arrive (of which it appears the vast majority arrived at roughly the same time). This in itself should of been policed properly, It would of been quite clear to the authorities that there were many fans who were arriving late due to traffic problems. And I ask those that consider the ticketless fans responsible for the causing the opening of the gate - Why did the police give in to the actions of a small section of fans? You don't have to be a maths teacher to work out that adding extra people to a sold out section would be somewhat of a problem. Why did they not do their job which is to provide safety to the public, and instead make a decision which they should of known would of had huge potential safety problems? Why did they not delay the kick off to alleviate any sense of loosing control of the amount of fans trying to get in? would delaying the game of been seen as a sign of weakness by the police authorities in charge, an inability to 'keep things in order'? (i'm referring here to a comment made above that delay's were uncommon then, the officer in charge was wet around the ears according to the report, and may of not wanted to appear unable to deal with the situation, so just decided to 'let them all in'). in reply to the bit in bold...i thought it was because of the risk of people getting crushed OUTSIDE the ground. it wasn't just ticketless fans that joined the crush to get in from OUTSIDE the ground but those with tickets and those ridiculously sent there from other parts of the ground (does the taylor report say why liverpool fans with tickets for other parts of the ground were sent there ?). the police failed to stop the crushing outside the ground the fans shouldn't have been crushing outside the ground. if the fans don't do it the police don't have a decsion to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scouseman Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 "Access to the Leppings Lane turnstiles was tight. Gates in the fencing led into confined areas feeding 23 old-style turnstiles, with exit gates nearby. The turnstiles processed fans entering the Leppings Lane terrace, the West Stand and the North Stand: more than 24,256. Three years earlier a police inspector had warned that the Leppings Lane turnstiles 'do not give anything like the access to the ground… needed by away fans'." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/5056427/Hillsborough-football-stadium-disaster-a-fight-for-justice-and-wounds-that-never-heal.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 "Access to the Leppings Lane turnstiles was tight. Gates in the fencing led into confined areas feeding 23 old-style turnstiles, with exit gates nearby. The turnstiles processed fans entering the Leppings Lane terrace, the West Stand and the North Stand: more than 24,256. Three years earlier a police inspector had warned that the Leppings Lane turnstiles 'do not give anything like the access to the ground… needed by away fans'." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/5056427/Hillsborough-football-stadium-disaster-a-fight-for-justice-and-wounds-that-never-heal.html still the fans shouldn't have been pushing and crushing to get in. as an example it used to happen at the gallowgate end at SJP. the fans were wrong to do it and the police policed it in the way of the time, walk horses into the throng and threaten to arrest anyone who said they should do something about it. if anyone got hurt there i'd have blamed the fans for pushing and the police for not stopping it...............i stopped going in the gallowgate and went to the "A" wing paddock were the crushing didn't take place to get into the ground. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 So we have people on here believing that the police opened the gate due to the actions of people without tickets trying to get in, what happens when you open the gates? Now along with this minority of fans who may never have gained entry you also end up with a free for all of late arrivals, people just arriving from being delayed by traffic, the numerous fans sent from other parts of the ground, and anyone else who fancied it... absolute chaos. Anyone who has been in a supermarket checkout cue knows what happens when a new till opens, times that by thousands. The resulting chaos was the result of a decision made by the police/authorities. madras, you say that this decision was made to stop people being crushed outside the ground? so you open the gate and let everyone swarm into an already filled area? next time you have a pint try dropping a brick into it at seeing what happens. A child could tell you that was the wrong decision to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 the fans shouldn't have been crushing outside the ground. if the fans don't do it the police don't have a decsion to make. So minutes before kick off you open the gates to let thousands of fans into an area already filled to capacity. Madness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 i'll be f***ing astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 i'll be f***ing astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. i'm not arguing anything at all about opening the gates dude, never have, patently an insane decision doesn't change anything i've said one iota however Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 This ticketless fans issue is of relatively minor importance. Fans with tickets pushing to get in was of far more importance. And that was of much lesser importance to the decision making of the police. Many of us will have been in that end around that time. We usually played down there around holiday periods, we took large numbers and you didn't need a ticket. The police and the public didn't have a good relationship and police and football fans less so. Access to that end is narrow and poor, once in you head down the tunnel and into the centre section. Every time I have been in the centre sections get filled before the side pens get opened. I think the police were used to seeing fans getting a bit of a crush and that happened every time I have been there. The fans outside have no idea of the situation inside and you naturally push forward. The police could have controlled the crowd outside with horses and queue calming measures. The decision to open the gates was fatally flawed. The fans unwittingly contributed but they weren't doing anything unexpected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 i'll be f***ing astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. i'm not arguing anything at all about opening the gates dude, never have, patently an insane decision doesn't change anything i've said one iota however Doesn't change what? that you'll get some fans turning up at games without tickets? Nothing out of the ordinary, it happens all the time. If you are saying that if these ticketless fans had all decided to stay at home this would never have happened, then I disagree. The volume of late arrivals (those having that quick last pint), coupled with all those fans who were arriving late due to the large scale traffic problems, and the confusion caused by fans sent to that end of the ground from all over the rest of stadium, would of provided all that was needed to cause the disaster. Remember the area all these fans were allowed into was already filled to capacity, and there was no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 i'll be f***ing astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. i'm not arguing anything at all about opening the gates dude, never have, patently an insane decision doesn't change anything i've said one iota however Doesn't change what? that you'll get some fans turning up at games without tickets? Nothing out of the ordinary, it happens all the time. If you are saying that if these ticketless fans had all decided to stay at home this would never have happened, then I disagree. The volume of late arrivals (those having that quick last pint), coupled with all those fans who were arriving late due to the large scale traffic problems, and the confusion caused by fans sent to that end of the ground from all over the rest of stadium, would of provided all that was needed to cause the disaster. Remember the area all these fans were allowed into was already filled to capacity, and there was no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates. we're going round in circles - i'll never concede that the actions of the fans (not just that day but in the days, months & years leading up to it) had no effect on events the weight of the blame lies with the police but no-one has shown me anything, not even close, to suggest some fans shouldn't also be held accountable to some degree also why was there "no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates."? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 also why was there "no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates."? Well I wasn't there, but I would imagine that those fans who knew things were taking a turn for the worst were not able to send word back, via the mouths of other fans, to those who would of still of been coming through the gate. the weight of the blame lies with the police but no-one has shown me anything, not even close, to suggest some fans shouldn't also be held accountable to some degree Funny that, no one has shown me anything, not even close, to suggest that some fans were accountable. we're going round in circles - i'll never concede that the actions of the fans (not just that day but in the days, months & years leading up to it) had no effect on events Fans will always have an effect on events, they just have to turn up. But yes, we are going round in circles. Final post from me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 So we have people on here believing that the police opened the gate due to the actions of people without tickets trying to get in, what happens when you open the gates? Now along with this minority of fans who may never have gained entry you also end up with a free for all of late arrivals, people just arriving from being delayed by traffic, the numerous fans sent from other parts of the ground, and anyone else who fancied it... absolute chaos. Anyone who has been in a supermarket checkout cue knows what happens when a new till opens, times that by thousands. The resulting chaos was the result of a decision made by the police/authorities. madras, you say that this decision was made to stop people being crushed outside the ground? so you open the gate and let everyone swarm into an already filled area? next time you have a pint try dropping a brick into it at seeing what happens. A child could tell you that was the wrong decision to make. for fucks sake...have you read a single thing i've posted..yes it was the wrong decision by the police,no-one denies this. but if it wasn't for the actions of the fans the police wouldn't have been in the position of being able to make a wrong decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 This ticketless fans issue is of relatively minor importance. Fans with tickets pushing to get in was of far more importance. And that was of much lesser importance to the decision making of the police. Many of us will have been in that end around that time. We usually played down there around holiday periods, we took large numbers and you didn't need a ticket. The police and the public didn't have a good relationship and police and football fans less so. Access to that end is narrow and poor, once in you head down the tunnel and into the centre section. Every time I have been in the centre sections get filled before the side pens get opened. I think the police were used to seeing fans getting a bit of a crush and that happened every time I have been there. The fans outside have no idea of the situation inside and you naturally push forward. The police could have controlled the crowd outside with horses and queue calming measures. The decision to open the gates was fatally flawed. The fans unwittingly contributed but they weren't doing anything unexpected. Well put, summed it all up perfectly to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 This ticketless fans issue is of relatively minor importance. Fans with tickets pushing to get in was of far more importance. And that was of much lesser importance to the decision making of the police. Many of us will have been in that end around that time. We usually played down there around holiday periods, we took large numbers and you didn't need a ticket. The police and the public didn't have a good relationship and police and football fans less so. Access to that end is narrow and poor, once in you head down the tunnel and into the centre section. Every time I have been in the centre sections get filled before the side pens get opened. I think the police were used to seeing fans getting a bit of a crush and that happened every time I have been there. The fans outside have no idea of the situation inside and you naturally push forward. The police could have controlled the crowd outside with horses and queue calming measures. The decision to open the gates was fatally flawed. The fans unwittingly contributed but they weren't doing anything unexpected. Well put, summed it all up perfectly to me. especially the last sentence. "unwittingly contributed" is where a portion of the blame should lie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 for f***s sake...have you read a single thing i've posted..yes it was the wrong decision by the police,no-one denies this. Yes, I've read what you have posted, and yes we agree they made the wrong decision. but if it wasn't for the actions of the fans the police wouldn't have been in the position of being able to make a wrong decision. We will always disagree on this point, so there is no point carrying it any further. No more butts my friend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 especially the last sentence. "unwittingly contributed" is where a portion of the blame should lie. Everyone there contributed to being there, blame is a completely separate issue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 especially the last sentence. "unwittingly contributed" is where a portion of the blame should lie. Everyone there contributed to being there, blame is a completely separate issue! those that contributed to the pushing etc should ask themselves if the police would have fucked up so much if it wasn't for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground? are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ? toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground? inside the ground there was a crush caused due to it being a totally enclosed area and those at the back just entering didn't know the circumstances at the front. not so outside where they'd have known the only reason for the pushing was because of trouble getting in as there were walls preventing people getting in. not so inside where most people stand away from the front for a better view and anyone coming into the back of it would have thought there was space if those in front of them moved forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest north shields lad Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground? are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ? toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous No but how hard would it have been to realise that there was a large percentage of Liverpool fans that were going to turn up at 10 to 3. That it was impossible to get them in the ground safetly, and make announcments that KO had been delayed by 30 minutes. Some utter crap spoken here by madras etc, god help us if anything like this ever happened to us, instead of helping each other and giving first aid like the Liverpool fans did, we would be standing there arguing whose fault it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground? are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ? toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous No but how hard would it have been to realise that there was a large percentage of Liverpool fans that were going to turn up at 10 to 3. That it was impossible to get them in the ground safetly, and make announcments that KO had been delayed by 30 minutes. Some utter crap spoken here by madras etc, god help us if anything like this ever happened to us, instead of helping each other and giving first aid like the Liverpool fans did, we would be standing there arguing whose fault it is. well, thats daft isn't it ? Of course we would have reacted just like the Liverpool fans did and gave first aid !! I was watching it on TV at the time when it went over to the ground, it was instantly obvious what was happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 And the fans who were caught in the crush outside the ground who had tickets and who had just been held up in the traffic? There were to blame how? Because there would have been a great deal more of them than ticketless fans. So are they to blame that the police did a crap job outside the ground? are you going to blame the police for them being held up in the traffic too ? toonlass, get a grip. Nobody is saying some things could have been done differently, but saying the supporters themselves aren't responsible for their own actions is ridiculous If the subject that we were discussing wasn't so tragic I would be able to laugh at how ignorant you have been NE5. Are the fans responsible for the police not having a cordon that they had the year before to stop ticketless fans anywhere near the ground? Are the fans responsible for the police forcibly making fans with tickets for other areas of the ground go to the Leppings Lane end? Are the fans responsible for the police and stewards not placing personnel at the entrance of the tunnel up to pens 3 and 4 when they were full, which was what normally happened at games? I don't expect you to answer these questions NE5, as per your habit of never answering direct questions with anything but hyperbole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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