Hatem Ben Arfa

[Taylor Swift]

If Best contributes to two goals a game for most games this season then this thread will die on its own, but he had his best game for us in his last match so it's not fair on either him or Ben Arfa to say that his performance against Stoke is the standard to which Ben Arfa will be judged and it's also not fair to Ben Arfa to use his performance against Spurs in those circumstances as a key in evaluating how he will likely fit into the team and whether we will be better off with him starting or not.

[Flip]

Yes I agree with your main point (though not about my analogies) in that we need to balance hard workers with skilled players. Most of our starting eleven are hard working. I would say all, actually, when Best starts. So there's room to sacrifice some running for some sublime skill, especially when that sublime skill is the difference between 0 and 1 point, and 1 and 3 points. As hardworking as most teams in the league are, they still end up with zero points when they go away to the Manc clubs. But if we had that skill in our team, that someone who could conjure up a goal or two out of nothing, who knows, maybe we'd be able to sneak something there.

 

I'm just saying Ben Arfa is the type of player you build your team around, so I don't even flinch when I realise that someone like Best has to be sacrificed for him. Same with vDv at Spurs. He's won them 3 or 4 matches this season and he contributes f*** all to their defending, but he's been the difference for them which is why they sacrifice a hardworking player to play him. Your point about Adebayor is actually good but the key to their team has been vDv, not Adebayor.

 

I agree with your point on VDV, however the thing with him for me he's just so much more naturally suited to the role in that he's not particularly greedy, he knows when to try something flash and when to keep it simple and most importantly he has a great footballing brain in that he's a thinking man's footballer, a

 

Stop it right there, Ben Arfa isn't a greedy player, actually I'd say the opposite, last season at Everton he was trying all these through balls for Carrol and against Stoke the same instead of shooting. This season it's a different story, but that's because he wants to show what he can do and trying to hard. If he can just get back to his natural games, he'll get more assists than goals. And you'll change your opinion.

 

 

[Taylor Swift]

Yes I agree with your main point (though not about my analogies) in that we need to balance hard workers with skilled players. Most of our starting eleven are hard working. I would say all, actually, when Best starts. So there's room to sacrifice some running for some sublime skill, especially when that sublime skill is the difference between 0 and 1 point, and 1 and 3 points. As hardworking as most teams in the league are, they still end up with zero points when they go away to the Manc clubs. But if we had that skill in our team, that someone who could conjure up a goal or two out of nothing, who knows, maybe we'd be able to sneak something there.

 

I'm just saying Ben Arfa is the type of player you build your team around, so I don't even flinch when I realise that someone like Best has to be sacrificed for him. Same with vDv at Spurs. He's won them 3 or 4 matches this season and he contributes fuck all to their defending, but he's been the difference for them which is why they sacrifice a hardworking player to play him. Your point about Adebayor is actually good but the key to their team has been vDv, not Adebayor.

 

I agree with your point on VDV, however the thing with him for me he's just so much more naturally suited to the role in that he's not particularly greedy, he knows when to try something flash and when to keep it simple and most importantly he has a great footballing brain in that he's a thinking man's footballer, all of this helps him look so comfortable in the role but not only that it's allowed him to build up a great understanding with his team mates who know if they make the run or find space then he will find them rather than attempting to do it all on his own.

 

While Ben Arfa is far better at gliding past players I don't think he's in the same league for having the attributes to play in that position personally and more of an enigma.

 

No, Ben Arfa isn't in the same league as vDv but he has the skills and potential to be, and he's also the most technically gifted player at the club, much like vDv is at Spurs. So I see Ben Arfa's potential impact as similar to vDv's impact, except they'll do it in different ways. vDv does it with his movement and finishing while Ben Arfa will do it with his dribbling. I think Ben Arfa's an excellent passer as well, equally as good as vDv. But anyway, we're starting the same team until we lose or draw without scoring, and I'm hoping that it doesn't happen anytime soon, so let's hope Best can consistently play as well as he did on Monday.

[Baggio]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

[ponsaelius]

Think my brain is melting

[Taylor Swift]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

 

But he'll drift as a #10, like vDv drifts for Spurs. I don't think he has to always be situated in the central space between the defence and the midfield. He'll be shading to the left at times, to the right at times, helping Jonas out at times, helping Marveaux at times, basically finding space then using his ability to go past one or two defenders and creating an opportunity for us. I think that's the way that he's always played. At Spurs, the fact that they defended with so many men made it harder for him to find lots of space but he still had a couple of moments where he did, turned and looked threatening. Against Wigan again he had the run where he cut in from the left and took a shot - that alone was more impact on the match than Best had in the first half. I think we should be extrapolating what he'll be like from those moments, and not the two idiotic moments where he lost the ball trying to take it past two players right in the center of the pitch, with one of them leading to a clear-cut chance for Defoe.

[Taylor Swift]

I'm done with this thread. He'll rip a team to shreds once and these pages will be thankfully forgotten.

[Guest hatem garrincha]

I'm done with this thread. He'll rip a team to shreds once and these pages will be thankfully forgotten.

 

Well done man 

[Baggio]

I'm done with this thread. He'll rip a team to shreds once and these pages will be thankfully forgotten.

 

He'll have to do it consistently for that to happen but I agree, this thread is getting repetitive.

[Sifu]

For me, I guess it is a matter of easing Ben Arfa into the side and possibly easing Best out. We are all aware of Ben Arfa's quality and that he should be in the side sooner rather than later. For now, I would continue to start Best and then, depending on the what's happening in the game, bring him (or even Ba) off for Ben Arfa (if we encounter, for example, another Wigan situation where attacking-wise, we're hardly doing anything).

 

But on the other hand, the Ba-Best partnership seems to be going very well for us. They seem to be slowly developing an understanding (as you should with strike partnership) and that can only benefit the team imo and so (for now anyway) I wouldn't want to see it being broken up. Best's hold up play has been important for us so far and he does give his all in every game so it would be harsh to see him dropped from the side. I would say see how he does in the next couple of months or so, if there is a drop in form for whatever reason, then Ben Arfa should be given a chance.

[Ronaldo]

Such a pointless debate anyway. If he's good enough, he'll get in the team.

[Flip]

I'm done with this thread. He'll rip a team to shreds once and these pages will be thankfully forgotten.

 

And we'll be proven right All Hail Ben Arfa

[Guest hatem garrincha]

I'm done with this thread. He'll rip a team to shreds once and these pages will be thankfully forgotten.

 

He'll have to do it consistently for that to happen but I agree, this thread is getting repetitive.

 

Good opposition from Baggio also 

This debate is the same in France with the same arguments on each side...

And most generally :  Madras, Parky,  Michael, Felipao, Mr Logic, Ian Wright, Mick, Tooj, TRon  among others  as well.

[wormy]

For me, I guess it is a matter of easing Ben Arfa into the side and possibly easing Best out. We are all aware of Ben Arfa's quality and that he should be in the side sooner rather than later. For now, I would continue to start Best and then, depending on the what's happening in the game, bring him (or even Ba) off for Ben Arfa (if we encounter, for example, another Wigan situation where attacking-wise, we're hardly doing anything).

 

But on the other hand, the Ba-Best partnership seems to be going very well for us. They seem to be slowly developing an understanding (as you should with strike partnership) and that can only benefit the team imo and so (for now anyway) I wouldn't want to see it being broken up. Best's hold up play has been important for us so far and he does give his all in every game so it would be harsh to see him dropped from the side. I would say see how he does in the next couple of months or so, if there is a drop in form for whatever reason, then Ben Arfa should be given a chance.

 

Nooooo. Don't start the paragraphs again.

[Sifu]

Had to be done wormy

[Gallowgate Toon]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

 

That's where Ben Arfa's different though. He's well known for his footwork, getting him out of the tiniest and toughest spots. I look at him now and I think, he's physically fit but in terms of the sharpness he needs to make his game work, he's 10% off. That quick footwork is what makes him such a threat but there's the old conundrum, he obviously needs competitive game time to get that extra oomph back but he can't get it with us playing so well.

 

I also look at him now and see a player not quite playing in the same way as he was before his injury. I don't think he has many demons per se but he doesn't seem quite as relaxed as before, looking like he has a point to prove and I think that answers the issue of being too eager and losing the ball.

 

Basically all i'm saying is, I just think he deserves some time to get back to find himself on the pitch and some time to be judged. I think some of the sweeping judgements on his game so far, like 'losing the ball', have been a little foolish and unfair as he's now spent a lot of his career here, playing after a very serious injury. Just look at the Demba Ba thread, it shows how many ill-timed comments, can be so wrong. Patience is a virtue and all that.

[TheGuv]

My eyes hurt after reading this page

 

Paragraphs, paragraphs. I keep meaning to hit enter but I always reach the end of the post before doing so. Sorry.

 

You listened

[Guest hatem garrincha]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

[Baggio]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

 

That's where Ben Arfa's different though. He's well known for his footwork, getting him out of the tiniest and toughest spots. I look at him now and I think, he's physically fit but in terms of the sharpness he needs to make his game work, he's 10% off. That quick footwork is what makes him such a threat but there's the old conundrum, he obviously needs competitive game time to get that extra oomph back but he can't get it with us playing so well.

 

I also look at him now and see a player not quite playing in the same way as he was before his injury. I don't think he has many demons per se but he doesn't seem quite as relaxed as before, looking like he has a point to prove and I think that answers the issue of being too eager and losing the ball.

 

Basically all i'm saying is, I just think he deserves some time to get back to find himself on the pitch and some time to be judged. I think some of the sweeping judgements on his game so far, like 'losing the ball', have been a little foolish and unfair as he's now spent a lot of his career here, playing after a very serious injury. Just look at the Demba Ba thread, it shows how many ill-timed comments, can be so wrong. Patience is a virtue and all that.

 

Nobody is saying that he won't improve when he's up to speed though, the point people are debating is will he improve us as a team if he replaces Best and at the moment that's debatable.

 

 

[Guest hatem garrincha]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

 

That's where Ben Arfa's different though. He's well known for his footwork, getting him out of the tiniest and toughest spots. I look at him now and I think, he's physically fit but in terms of the sharpness he needs to make his game work, he's 10% off. That quick footwork is what makes him such a threat but there's the old conundrum, he obviously needs competitive game time to get that extra oomph back but he can't get it with us playing so well.

 

I also look at him now and see a player not quite playing in the same way as he was before his injury. I don't think he has many demons per se but he doesn't seem quite as relaxed as before, looking like he has a point to prove and I think that answers the issue of being too eager and losing the ball.

 

Basically all i'm saying is, I just think he deserves some time to get back to find himself on the pitch and some time to be judged. I think some of the sweeping judgements on his game so far, like 'losing the ball', have been a little foolish and unfair as he's now spent a lot of his career here, playing after a very serious injury. Just look at the Demba Ba thread, it shows how many ill-timed comments, can be so wrong. Patience is a virtue and all that.

 

Nobody is saying that he won't improve when he's up to speed though, the point people are debating is will he improve us as a team if he replaces Best and at the moment that's debatable.

 

 

 

That's debatable yes, but only if he can get  some games (not only one or a few appearances from the bench) to show what he can do and how he can improve the team.

[Mr Logic]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

[Guest hatem garrincha]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

 

If there's movements around him and forward, he's one of the best passer in Europe.

 

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

Very nice. Him and Ba will work just fine.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

 

That's where Ben Arfa's different though. He's well known for his footwork, getting him out of the tiniest and toughest spots. I look at him now and I think, he's physically fit but in terms of the sharpness he needs to make his game work, he's 10% off. That quick footwork is what makes him such a threat but there's the old conundrum, he obviously needs competitive game time to get that extra oomph back but he can't get it with us playing so well.

 

I also look at him now and see a player not quite playing in the same way as he was before his injury. I don't think he has many demons per se but he doesn't seem quite as relaxed as before, looking like he has a point to prove and I think that answers the issue of being too eager and losing the ball.

 

Basically all i'm saying is, I just think he deserves some time to get back to find himself on the pitch and some time to be judged. I think some of the sweeping judgements on his game so far, like 'losing the ball', have been a little foolish and unfair as he's now spent a lot of his career here, playing after a very serious injury. Just look at the Demba Ba thread, it shows how many ill-timed comments, can be so wrong. Patience is a virtue and all that.

 

Nobody is saying that he won't improve when he's up to speed though, the point people are debating is will he improve us as a team if he replaces Best and at the moment that's debatable.

 

 

 

You said it. Unless you're genuinely saying the bit in bold, in the context that Ben Arfa isn't ever allowed to lose the ball?

 

 

Drogba was excellent at relieving pressure for Chelsea and everything went through him being the head of the team so I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

 

You say the better footballing teams in Europe do this but we're not one of them, we don't have the quality of players to be one of them and would get dissected if we tried to play that way, so we do what's effective for us and stick with the solid forward that soaks up all of the pressure and can bring our other players into play from there. If you look at how we played under Robson with Shearer relieving the pressure from the team with the quicker and technical players swarming around and it's similar to the role Best is playing now.

 

Your opinion that Ben Arfa will dribble past players to relieve pressure is all well and good when it comes off but when it doesn't we're instantly back under pressure and that's how it's been for every game he's featured up top for us, is he suddenly going to stop giving the ball away when he's up to speed? Well no and people have already pointed out when defending him that you're going to have to accept that he's going to lose it a lot while trying to be creative.

 

Shearer as the hold up man worked excellent, Drogba in that role worked for Chelsea, Adebayor is making that role work at Spurs and most importantly Best is making that role work for us and until it doesn't there is no reason at all to change it.

 

I've also said on the Best front, that it's a conundrum, with the team playing so well. I don't personally think Leon Best has been a critical part of our run, certainly not over the last 5 games at least and when he's not scoring, I don't think he's adding as much as Ben Arfa would. I'd be more concerned about breaking the team up for morale reasons, than losing Leon Best individually (I actually rate him by the way).

[Guest michaelfoster]

The main question is do you change a team that's winning, at the expense of unsettling the rest of the starting XI, the answer is no at the minute, so Ben Arfa on the bench for Everton.