For Gods sake Mike!

[Ronaldo]

Yeah, because buying a plasma telly can be likened to buying players we need to avoid sending the club into free-fall.

[Guest neesy111]

Is it not just a difference in policy Wullie? Previously the owners didn't mind the debt increasing, so allowed spending to continue. Ashley wants to make the club self-sufficient, so he's not sanctioning any increase in borrowing.

 

Obviously the economic situation has worsened massively as well.

 

Obviously you'd be silly to stop buying lightbulbs because you have a mortgage to pay. But equally you'd be silly to take out loads of credit to buy a plasma telly and a new car.

 

remember when Sir John Hall first came in as chairman, he said he could see his investment going down the pan, so he went in to protect his investment by making sure the club didn't get relegated to the old division 3.  Would ashley do something similar I very much doubt it.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

What are NUST up to these days?

 

They're striving for positive change.

 

It's better than hoping for it like the rest of us.

 

Can you tell me what it actually means?  Like in terms of something specific?

 

Aiming for a target, first hand.

 

We're hoping for a target, second hand.

 

 

I'm not saying they're the bees knees or anything, but if they're doing something, or they're planning to do something, then they wont get any snide remarks about them from me. Especially when I'm doing fuck all to truly make a difference myself.

 

Two years down the line, they need to tell us what they're doing then.

[Guest neesy111]

Yeah, because buying a plasma telly can be likened  to buying players we need to avoid the club going into free-fall.

 

This

 

And if we get relegated, then it'll be harder than last time to come straight back up

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

What are NUST up to these days?

 

They're striving for positive change.

 

It's better than hoping for it like the rest of us.

 

Can you tell me what it actually means?  Like in terms of something specific?

 

Aiming for a target, first hand.

 

We're hoping for a target, second hand.

 

 

I'm not saying they're the bees knees or anything, but if they're doing something, or they're planning to do something, then they wont get any snide remarks about them from me. Especially when I'm doing fuck all to truly make a difference myself.

 

Two years down the line, they need to tell us what they're doing then.

Has it really been two years? I'd be honestly genuinely interested to know if they've managed to achieve anything they've set out to do, other than form a group and collect subs. Have they improved the club's position with fans? Have the fans benefited from their (NUST) coming together and forming a voice of the fans? I'm not sure if I've felt any benefits, but then I'm not a member of NUST and could be totally oblivious to any changes that have been made due to my own ignorance. To me it seems like one of those working men social clubs, only without the fags and booze (perhaps).

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Is it not just a difference in policy Wullie? Previously the owners didn't mind the debt increasing, so allowed spending to continue. Ashley wants to make the club self-sufficient, so he's not sanctioning any increase in borrowing.

 

Obviously the economic situation has worsened massively as well.

 

Obviously you'd be silly to stop buying lightbulbs because you have a mortgage to pay. But equally you'd be silly to take out loads of credit to buy a plasma telly and a new car.

 

The club will never be self sufficient as a yo-yo club. It was self sufficient through the 90s with less transfer fees and far higher ground income (albeit lower wages too) when we were spending money to compete with the big boys. I appreciate things have changed re: Man City, Chelsea etc but the club no longer being able to compete with Everton, Spurs right down to Stoke City and Bolton? Nah sorry, not buying it.

 

I agree, the question is whether we can get away with the strategy I suppose.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Yeah, because buying a plasma telly can be likened  to buying players we need to avoid the club going into free-fall.

 

This

 

And if we get relegated, then it'll be harder than last time to come straight back up

 

Fair enough, the comparison wasn't great... but buying players isn't exactly like buying lightbulbs either!

 

I want us to sign players as much as anyone, all I'm saying is that we know what the owner's policy is. We've all got opinions on whether it's right or wrong and to what degree - but it is what it is.

[Parky]

This ridiculous myth that the club has no income and can only spend money if Mike Ashley raids his own personal piggy bank has to stop.

 

John Hall and Freddy Shepherd never put a single penny into NUFC over a fifteen year period and still managed to have us competing for the title, playing in cup finals, playing in the Champions League and paying big money for quality players.

 

Yes their reign turned sour thanks to a few dud managers who in turn made more than a few dud signings and left us in a bit of a state (much less of a state than certain other Premier League clubs who continue to improve their side I might add) but that took nearly two decades to get to that point - I remember arguments on here about them taking massive dividends out of the club each year atop massive salaries and still we managed to spend money on players, long before any financial troubles loomed large.

 

Now I appreciate that there was debt left over but much of this was on the stadium. Ashley claims that it was mainly on transfer fees previously paid - what were these mega fees out of line with most other clubs cos I must have missed them? A Boumsong here and a Luque there might not be ideal but I don't think it should cripple the club. I would also argue that a club needs debt to compete. I have a massive debt on my house, but we all do, I'm not going to stop replacing the lightbulbs because of it.

 

Over time season ticket prices have soared yet the sort of transfer fees we as a club pay have remained similar - in fact nowadays they are vastly less than they were in the early to mid-90s with a much smaller ground. We no longer pay the mortgage on the ground that we did when we upgraded it, so we get the vast majority of gate fees back into the coffers, something that has only been happening under Ashley's reign. Meanwhile the wage bill (which Ashley bloated when he arrived, despite his pleas that it was Shepherd alone) has been slashed, TV money rises year on year, we had a big parachute payment to cushion the drop back into the Championship, we have sold Bassong, Martins, N'Zogbia, Given, Duff, Milner et al for a combined total of nearly £50m and spent a small fraction of that on replacements.

 

Now I know nothing about finances (obviously, I hear you cry ) and most people seem content to accept what they're being told by Ashley and his mates but to me, something isn't right with what we're being told re: the club's financials. Where is the money going compared to the previous fifteen years? How long can we accept the "we're skint" line? Five years? Ten years?

 

Excellent post.

 

Two points to echo, there are no clubs in the Pl who aren't in debt of some kind, even Birmingham who ae running an operating profit (yeah it does happen) of £13m have net debt of 12m. The teams that we are going to be in a fight with have debts running form 20 to 30m£, I think Stoke have the lowest primarily due to their ultra low wage bill. But if you look the next tier up at Fulham, Villa, Sunderland, Bolton, West Ham, the debt are in the 50m+ category (Fulham 164m debt). These are basically the mid-table clubs who have taken on debt to stave off relegation out of the goldmine that is the PL and it is this that MA needs to look at most closely.

 

Nobody is asking the club take wild gambles and I genuinely feel that the slow cutting of wages and outgoings bodes well for the future, but to take it to such extremes (hunting around for free's and loans in what it the most important season in a long time for the overall health of the club) is utter madness or absolute negligence.

 

The other thing is branding and profile the 'wow' factor if you like of driving a club forward with the supporters in tow is the quickest way to land bigger sponsorship, marketing and advertising deals. The revenue stream as a whole improves no end the higher up the table the club goes and the better profile it acquires.

 

On both counts I fiind MA really short sighted and wanting.

 

He really needs a General manager in there with football savvy who has been in and around the game and knows how to exploit its various demands.

[TRon]

Great post Parky.

[JH]

What are NUST up to these days?

 

They're striving for positive change.

 

It's better than hoping for it like the rest of us.

 

Well both camps are still in the same position

[The Prophet]

Surely it's occured to Ashley making an investment now is a more profitbale long term startegy? I echo what Parky has to say about debt, I made a post about it last year but I can't be arsed to find it.

 

I applaud Ashley for slashing the wage bill, etc but he has to realise well established clubs have a certian amount of debt, while the clubs at the top end of table have a massive amount of debt, perhaps with the exception of Arsenal. You can't climb the ladder serching the bargain bin for the odd Bosman here and a loan there, it doesn't work like that. Take Sunderland for example, what is they've spent something like £100 million on players in the last two or three years (I could be wrong there like)? And they're still struggling to break into the top half of the table. It's not like we're asking him to spend that much either, it's a case of screwing your loaf.

 

I really don't know what Ashely's perogatives are, I've said in the Ben Arfa I'm not sure whether he's penny pinching because he feels it's necessay or because it's part of some pipe dream buisness plan in which we climb the league on a wing and a prayer but either way we're going to suffer for it. We'll stumble from season to season maybe scrapping through one and getting relegated the next, then the ultimate goal of breaking even will become longer and more painful. Surely it would occur to anyone with a modicum of sense that a reletively sized investment now will serve him better in the long term, even if we have to suffer as Premier League whipping boys for a few of years it's a hell of a lot more valubale the lurching from league to leage every other year.

[Guest BooBoo]

Surely someone has stressed to Ashley or Llambias that should we be relegated this year, there will be little chance of a second straight forward bounce back. Most of the squad other than the real dross will not fancy yet another futile promotion bid if they realise their efforts will not be rewarded with sensible investment.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

I'm half interested/dreading seeing the season ticket numbers next year when the 3 year deal people's subscription ends.

[Guest neesy111]

I'm half interested/dreading seeing the season ticket numbers next year when the 3 year deal people's subscription ends.

 

i think it'll be then that ashley will finally jump ship

[midds]

Surely someone has stressed to Ashley or Llambias that should we be relegated this year, there will be little chance of a second straight forward bounce back. Most of the squad other than the real dross will not fancy yet another futile promotion bid if they realise there efforts will not be rewarded with sensible investment.

 

No-one knows what goes on in Ashley's mind but it wouldn't surprise me if, in a bizarre twist of logic, we appear to have made a bit of a rod for our own back by winning the CCC so comfortably last season. Had we scraped it by a point or two then Ashley may not have taken the chance of coming straight back down because we'd cut it so fine. By winning promotion by about 25 points it's encouraged Ashley to do it on cheap knowing that if we go down again we'll just piss the league like we did last season. He's sitting there assuming that if the worst comes to the worst and we go back down then we'll get these new imporved parachute payments and we'll bounce back again. 

[Dave]

I was under the impression that the parachute payment is given to the Football League if a club goes back up at the first attempt.

[Guest neesy111]

I was under the impression that the parachute payment is given to the Football League if a club goes back up at the first attempt.

 

correct

[midds]

I was under the impression that the parachute payment is given to the Football League if a club goes back up at the first attempt.

 

What I meant was that the club would be guaranteed a pot of cash even on relegation. I we went straight back up then we'd be i exactly the same situation we are in now. I know it's me getting ahead of the situation but I'm struggling to understand how his mind and logic works. 

[Dave]

[JH]

I don't think it's even as complicated as that.

 

The fact we walked the Championship means we're good enough to play in the Premiership - that's what I genuinely think he believes.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

I don't think it's even as complicated as that.

 

The fact we walked the Championship means we're good enough to play in the Premiership - that's what I genuinely think he believes.

 

We are though.  For a year.

[Heron]

Is there anyone who thinks he is running the club well?

[Liam Liam Liam O]

 

He really needs a General manager in there with football savvy who has been in and around the game and knows how to exploit its various demands.

 

I've never fully understood the concept that this sort of person exists.  What sort of person are you thinking of?

[Heron]

 

He really needs a General manager in there with football savvy who has been in and around the game and knows how to exploit its various demands.

 

I've never fully understood the concept that this sort of person exists.  What sort of person are you thinking of?

 

Gerard Houllier.

[Guest neesy111]

 

He really needs a General manager in there with football savvy who has been in and around the game and knows how to exploit its various demands.

 

I've never fully understood the concept that this sort of person exists.  What sort of person are you thinking of?

 

Gerard Houllier.

 

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