Guest Howaythetoon Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The Souness era was Shepherd's fault. Anyone that would prefer him to Ashley seriously needs their heads examened. I'd prefer Shepherd to Ashley because he understood football and had ambition even if it was more often than not misguided. The Souness era was disasterous for this club but nowhere near as disasterous as the Ashley era has been. shepered understood football lol He at least understood the concept of it. Ashley doesn't and never will because he's not a fan, never was and never will be. Ashley doesn't value a footballer, a fan or a manager, he values ecomonics and that's about it. To him a footballer is not a macth winner or a fan idol but an employee. Its the same with the manager. Fans are customers too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hobshobs Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Sad really that Bellamy was thrown out of the club and would have comfortably walked back into our team every season in the 8 years he's been gone. Compare the Bellamy performance for Liverpool against Man City last midweek with the Ameobi performance against Brighton last night. Bellamy = effort, committment and talent. Ameobi = complete and utter shite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The Souness era was Shepherd's fault. Anyone that would prefer him to Ashley seriously needs their heads examened. I'd prefer Shepherd to Ashley because he understood football and had ambition even if it was more often than not misguided. The Souness era was disasterous for this club but nowhere near as disasterous as the Ashley era has been. Aye, ambition to line his pockets while keeping the mongs in check with geordie nation platitudes and headline grabbing signings. The cnut. Hey, I can't stand the bloke, and was one of his biggest critics but compared to what Ashley is and how he's managed the club FS did far more and achieved far more. Not that I want to get drawn into an Ashley vs FS debate or old board vs new board debate. Lets not rewrite history here though because FS as bad as he was, was nowhere near as bad as Ashley has been and if we want to talk about achievements then, well, FS pisses all over Ashley in that sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 A lot of blame gets heaped on the manager but the reason England continue to struggle is not because of poor managers or coahes but because as a game in general we are decades behind everyone else when it comes to kids' football. Go and watch a game of football between kids in England and then go and compare for example in say Holland (which I have done) and the differences are staggering. Their 7 year olds are better than our 7 year olds, they play better football, can play more than one position and the game itself is generally played on the deck. Having said that, our coaching standards are poor too. Small pitches. Its ridiculous how kids as young as 10 are asked to play footy on adult size pitches. Go and watch an under-11 game in England and its ferocious, hoof ball, tackles flying in and very little football played. A typical championship game or average Premier League game really but with kids. Go and watch the equiverlent in Holland or Argentina... its a different ball game man. Oh I agree. Most Eng players will laugh if you tell them that the best part of a top class game is played in the mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conjo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Shepherd "understood" ambition. That´s about it. Luque transfer being a prime example. Had that been Ashley, we would have got him for what, 2/3 of the price, and on 2/3 of the wages he was offered? That would (at the time we got him) have been a great piece of business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conjo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 oh, and btw. "Astute piece of business" by Shepherds standards was to sell Aaron Hughes, a still young and versatile defender, for £1m and sign Craig Moore on a free transfer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Sad really that Bellamy was thrown out of the club and would have comfortably walked back into our team every season in the 8 years he's been gone. Compare the Bellamy performance for Liverpool against Man City last midweek with the Ameobi performance against Brighton last night. Bellamy = effort, committment and talent. Ameobi = complete and utter shite. Yeah but as crap as Ameobi has always been, and as talented and extraordinarily driven Bellamy was and is, Ameobi isn't a CANCER EATING AT THE HEART OF OUR CLUB!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Shepherd was a clueless disgrace. In terms of success he was lucky we got somebody of the class of Bobby who did genuinely understand football. Not that it stopped him sacking him in the end and giving the gig to Souness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Banaloona Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Is Scotland's any better? Why do they produce so many good ones, relative to the size of the country? If you look closely at both FA's education structure in terms of the way they educate coaches. The Scots structure is far more geared towards the developing coach. More modules etc to take, with information being given in a lot smaller chunks rather than the FA's approach to doing three levels before you have your UEFA A. Three levels being Level2-UefaB-UefaA. Only recently has the FA took the Scot's approach in terms of introducing the youth modules. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hobshobs Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Sad really that Bellamy was thrown out of the club and would have comfortably walked back into our team every season in the 8 years he's been gone. Compare the Bellamy performance for Liverpool against Man City last midweek with the Ameobi performance against Brighton last night. Bellamy = effort, committment and talent. Ameobi = complete and utter s****. Yeah but as crap as Ameobi has always been, and as talented and extraordinarily driven Bellamy was and is, Ameobi isn't a CANCER EATING AT THE HEART OF OUR CLUB!!!!!! Good, we agree then, Ameobi is crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Is Scotland's any better? Why do they produce so many good ones, relative to the size of the country? Fergie is obviously world-class but Moyes, Dalglish et al are average or ordinary. I'd say as a whole British managers are not as good as their foreign counter-parts just like our footballers are not as good and I'd put that down to our mentality, culture and methods which start right athe very forefront of football - kids' football. Disagree tbh mate, Dalglish has won the lot as a manager and is on course to win another trophy with Liverpool this year and Moyes has done a phenomenal job overall at Everton although they do seem to be now stagnating at best right now. Paul Lambert seems a good one as well, then you've got the likes of George Graham who won loads at Arsenal and Matt Busby, Bill Shankley, Jock Stein as one of the comments under this half-decent article points out: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/apr/28/scotland-managers-bossing-premier-league For such a small country it's pretty crazy really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Shepherd was hapless who thought the solution to everything was simply to throw money at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Shame that you can count the number of genuinely Premier League quality Scottish players on 1 hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Shepherd in a financial sense was to NUFC what Ashley is to us in a footballing sense - a fuctard to say the least. What NUFC needs is someone with a balance between the two if we are to ever be a successful consistent club. I know which kind of man between the two I'd rather have at NUFC though and the footballing man wins all the time because accountants and advisers will always keep a man like FS away from financial ruin. Indeed that's why he appointed Big Sam because he knew we could no longer spend spend spend. What keeps Mike Ashley away from football ruin? His mood it would appear, that and the Casino... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 A debate about Shepherd in 2012. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Is Scotland's any better? Why do they produce so many good ones, relative to the size of the country? Fergie is obviously world-class but Moyes, Dalglish et al are average or ordinary. I'd say as a whole British managers are not as good as their foreign counter-parts just like our footballers are not as good and I'd put that down to our mentality, culture and methods which start right athe very forefront of football - kids' football. Disagree tbh mate, Dalglish has won the lot as a manager and is on course to win another trophy with Liverpool this year and Moyes has done a phenomenal job overall at Everton although they do seem to be now stagnating at best right now. Paul Lambert seems a good one as well, then you've got the likes of George Graham who won loads at Arsenal and Matt Busby, Bill Shankley, Jock Stein as one of the comments under this half-decent article points out: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/apr/28/scotland-managers-bossing-premier-league For such a small country it's pretty crazy really. Oh aye, historically they have produced some great managers for such a small nations (and to be fair footballers too pre-90s) but as of today, for me, Moyes and Dalglish et al are no better than say Pardew or McLaren. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Moyes is much better than McClaren like imo. There's actually as many Welsh managers in the Premier League as there is English ones at the minute (3 of each). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Actually I'm wrong, presumed Brendan Rodgers was Welsh because he's manager of Swansea and I've somehow managed to largely avoid him. Still, 3 English managers in the top flight, terrible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The first few pages in this thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Moyes has done a pretty good job with not much to spend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The first few pages in this thread I think I was fairly reasonable if not a little overly pessimistic about how well he would perform Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Moyes has done a pretty good job with not much to spend. 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th - Everton's finishes in their full seasons under Moyes, very good imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Moyes has done a pretty good job with not much to spend. 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th - Everton's finishes in their full seasons under Moyes, very good imo. Would be interested to see his net spend, Bilyaletdinov and Fellaini obviously cost a fair bit but then I can't think of many who cost much. Jagielka and Baines around £5-6m then :donknow: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The only thing i thought Shepherd had up on Ashley was that he wanted the club to do well; and by that i mean in a footballing sense. The Cisse signing has mad me reviewing that point of view. It's the first time since these owners came in that i thought they might be genuinely interested in seeing NUFC doing well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Anyway, back to Pardew. My thoughts on him have nothing to do with OTT reactions based on some results. I have never rated him and back up my opinions that he's an average limited manager who will never ammount to much especially at Newcastle based on what I see before me out there where it counts, the pitch. Forget the league table for a moment. Our performances have been sub-par in the main with one or two alarming scary performances thrown in that you would expect from a relegation haunted side or a side on the slide never mind a side seamingly sitting pretty in 6th. This league this season is so volatile and downright ordinary, a side like ours can get into the top 6 and even finish there or above, even on the back of mixed performances. Everton did it one year grinding out 1-0 wins and drawing games without ever being fully convincing performance wise. But long term.... Long-term is something that I pay particular interest in regarding this club. Long-term for example I know Danny Simpson is not good enough and will need replaced. Something many on here would agree with, indeed many would have him dropped tomorrow. So why is it that when I look long-term and consider that, based on what I see, i.e. the poor performances, the poor tactics, the odd team selections, the poor use of subs etc., Pardew, the man behind these issues, needs replaced, do I get flack and likewise those who share similar views as me? Yet these same people will think nothing of doing the exact same with Simpson for example or Obertan. I understand the need for stability etc. but I see in this current side of ours the nucleaus of a really good side, a top one. I also see in the scouting system we now have the ability to keep signing very good footballers who will repersent value for money out there on the pitch and as such I believe with the right kind of manager or coach we could go places, back into European football on a regular basis for one. Under Pardew I cannot see that happening because his football ideas and prinicples clash with things. He is a percentages one, keep a clean sheet first, get a draw etc. Get Ben Arfa to look at his prozone stats to see where he's going wrong etc. How about making him rewatch his goal against Blackburn Alan and telling him "more of that son" Pardew for me is a bit of a charlatan. He looks the part, talks the part and because of the likes of Krul, Cabaye, Tiote, Colo and the 15 goals of Ba, he appears to be doing the business but in reality those players in particular are papering over his many flaws and making his job very easy. When he is forced into making changes or asked to change things however he more often than not is shown up for what he is, a very limited manager. His gandling of certain players is shabby too, especially Ben Arfa, to drop him for Ryan Taylor after his wonder goal against Blackburn was piss poor and that decision alone set a near 50k crowd on a downer before a ball had even been kicked against QPR. A side by the way he was more than happy to kill the game off at the 60 minute marke despite a slender 1-0 advantage. This at home to what was and is a poor side. Now to his credit he has done a pretty decent job since taking over all things considered and he is by no means the worst man for the job, in many ways he's an indeal fit and yes 6th in the table is happy days given we were a Championship side a few years back but in reality we are a big Premier League club with a fine set of players, the best in my eyes since Sir Bobby's days and first XI for first XI on a par with Liverpool for me and therefore the best outside of Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal and of course Liverpool. This is where we should be competing, the top 6 with these players. When we finished 4th under Sir Bobby back in 2001, I remember mid-way through the season fans were cock-a-hoop and considered where we were at the time way ahead of where they had us at the start of that season, just like now. However if we had of tailed off to finish 10th at the end of that season, would fans have been all "ah well, that's where we were at anyway"? No they fucking wouldn't have because we had proved at that stage of the season we were a top 4 side. Just like we are proving now that we are a top 6 side. Yet I feel through Pardew's tactical inability, poor team selections and use of subs that we could well find ourselves finishing as low as 10th and that's because in the main we don't play particularly well as a side in terms of a strong performance. We rely on the saves of Krul, the reading of the game of Colo, the industry of Cabaye and the goals of Ba. Imagine if we played good football though, what could this side acheieve in a league where the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea are so ordinary and there for the taking? Much more. But that is now. The future, the long-term? I can see us slipping into mid-table mediocrity under Pardew. He mentioned the tipping point recently, well, the tipping point for NUFC for me is this summer where I trully believe to kick on we need to look at replacing Pardew with someone with the tactical nous and footballing vision to compliment the extremely good side we have here. Interestingly, because of the set-up at Newcastle, such a transition could be seamless. We don't need a manager with an eye for talent or someone with the knack when it comes to the transfer market. We need a good coach, someone who understands tactics and can get a talented group of players playing football, something Pardew despite our lofty position seems unable to do. Certainly on a match to match basis anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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