Football in pubs: North East pubs facing foreign channel crackdown

[Village Idiot]

1k a month? That can kill a small pub unless booze is even more expensive than the last time I was in the UK.

 

€150ish in Spain for the main rights holder (not all the games there though, 8 out of 10).

[Guest Mantis]

Is this the first usefull thing to come from the EU?  Hope it succeeds, The scousers wont be able to pay their wages once the gravy train ends

[Guest Loven11]

The Premier League has criticised legal advice which could allow pubs and clubs to screen its matches at any time.

 

The European Union's advocate general has said that a Portsmouth publican was entitled to show top-flight games decoded from a Greek satellite signal.

 

But the Premier League said such a policy would "damage the interests of broadcasters and viewers of Premier League football across the EU".

 

Sky Sports and ESPN hold the rights to live Premier League matches in the UK.

 

That means pubs, clubs and other public venues wishing to screen games have to pay a monthly subscription, on average around £700.

 

However, if advocate general Juliane Kokott's advice is upheld, subscribers would be free to use the cheapest decoder available to watch football matches even if it sidesteps exclusive national broadcasting agreements.

 

That could also mean football is broadcast between 1500 GMT and 1700 GMT on Saturdays which the Premier League says could have a detrimental affect on attendances across the country.

 

The Premier League receives nearly £2bn for the rights to screen English football's top flight but this ruling could affect that figure.

 

BSkyB has pumped billions of pounds into English football since the league was founded in 1992, with the money distributed to clubs allowing them to buy some of the top names in the world.

 

The satellite broadcaster makes about £200m annually in revenue from pubs and clubs, according to analysts at Jefferies Research.

 

They estimated an adverse ruling could have a £60-£70m impact.

 

The advocate general's advice comes after Portsmouth pub landlady Karen Murphy, fined for using Greek decoders, had argued the EU single market should let her use any European provider.

 

"The exclusivity agreement relating to transmission of football matches is contrary to European Union law," said Kokott in her opinion.

 

But the Premier League countered: "The European Court of Justice is there to enforce the law, not change it."

 

It added: "If her opinion were to be reflected in the ECJ's judgment, it would prevent rights holders across Europe from marketing their rights in a way which meets demand from broadcasters whose clear preference is to acquire, and pay for, exclusive rights within their own territory only and to use those rights to create services which satisfy the cultural preferences of their viewers within that territory."

 

The full court often, but not always, follows the advocate general's advice. A ruling is expected later in the year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/9386554.stm

[Stifler]

Also, wouldn't this allow us to view other countries football easier? Then again the subject wouldn't stop just at football.

[madras]

could that mean we could sign up to those, say, scandinavian services which allow those in those countries to watch any live premier league games online ?

[Village Idiot]

To be honest I wish football watching opened up a bit more. We only get La Liga and the PL down here regularly. There's the odd Calcio/Bundesliga game in an obscure cable channel but that's pretty much it.

[Guest Geordiecunny]

I don't buy the argument that it will effect attendances or the quality of the game. I for one feel more and more alienated from the game the more the money being bounded around goes up.

[Superior Acuña]

Niall Quinn reacts:

 

http://www.safc.com/news/20110204/quinns-message-for-pub-viewers_2256213_2285484

 

Niall Quinn has delivered a strong message to those supporters opting to watch the club's games via illegal broadcasts in public houses.

The Sunderland chairman chose to spoke out after an advocate of the European Court of Justice delivered a legal opinion yesterday against the Premier League and broadcasters.

Quinn says he would never criticise any supporter who does not attend for financial reasons but has questioned those who choose to take what he describes as the "easy option".

 

"Contrary to the opinion of the Advocate General, the illegal showing of Saturday 3pm fixtures involving Sunderland has an extremely detrimental effect on our attendances at the Stadium of Light," said Quinn.

"I can point to the evidence uncovered by an agency who covertly visited pubs and clubs in our catchment area and witnessed thousands watching the illegal broadcasts. My belief is a significant number of these people are taking the easy option of spending their money in the pub watching their team as opposed to supporting their team and helping to create a better atmosphere at the Stadium.

"Our attendances are down for a couple of reasons and the economic uncertainly right now is a factor. I would never criticise anyone who doesn't come to the Stadium because of financial constraints but I despise those who spend far more than the price of a ticket watching some overseas commentator describing the action at the nearby Stadium of Light.

"All clubs thrive on full stadiums. Loud, passionate support is the backbone of football and when our stadium is full we are a force to be reckoned with. I know this firsthand - when I was a player we could beat teams from the second they walked out of the tunnel, the atmosphere was so intimidating.

"To anyone watching the game illegally in the pub I will continue to say - by doing so you're not supporting your team, you're actually damaging the progress of the club. We have a real chance here to make this club feel great again but to do it we need everyone behind us. I would urge these people in the pubs and clubs to come back to the Stadium of Light.

 

"We have made a commitment to keeping our prices realistic , with our match tickets 50% cheaper than some clubs, so we're doing what we can to make it as easy as possible for people to come and support their team. And I reiterate, despite this opinion yesterday, it is still illegal to show games in this fashion."

A Premier League statement read: "The Premier League are currently considering the detail of Advocate General Kokott's Opinion but our initial view is that it is not compatible with the existing body of EU case law and would damage the interests of broadcasters and viewers of Premier League football across the EU.

 

"The Opinion expressed by Advocate General Kokott may reflect a particular policy view in relation to the provision of audio-visual services throughout the EU. However, if her opinion were to be reflected in the ECJ's judgment, it would prevent rights holders across Europe from marketing their rights in a way which meets demand from broadcasters whose clear preference is to acquire, and pay for, exclusive rights within their own territory only and to use those rights to create services which satisfy the cultural preferences of their viewers within that territory.

 

"We would hope that when the ECJ comes to its judgment in our case that the current European law, framed to help promote, celebrate and develop the cultural differences within the EU, is upheld.

 

"If the European Commission wants to create a pan-European licensing model for sports, film and music then it must go through the proper consultative and legislative processes to change the law rather than attempting to force through legislative changes via the courts.

 

"The ECJ is there to enforce the law, not change it."

[UV]

Headline: "Quinn despises Sunderland fans"

[wyn davies]

If I can go to Holland and buy a RHD Car Cheaper than here as was the case a while back, I can purchase an Airline Ticket to the States cheaper by going via another carrier eg KLM from Newcastle to Amsterdam and onto the States without using BA, caN buy European ciggs here Camel etc etc , why can't I buy a Sat Package cheaper from another EU sat carrier?.

 

Weren't the whole point of joining EU was to enable us to trade FREELY between EU countries without issue's, give it a few years and we'll be using Euro's and replacing POUNDS

[Taylor Swift]

If people don't go to Sunderland matches - or any other, for that matter - it's because the viewing experience doesn't compare with the experience of watching football in a pub. That may be for many reasons, many of which are personal to each match-going fan, but I'd say high ticket prices, shit stewards, shit and extortionately-priced food and similarly extortionately-priced beer contribute a great deal to why someone would prefer watching in a pub to watching in the stadium.

[adam1]

Last nights chelsea Liverpool match was shown via spanish Sky Sport in cosy joes last night.

[Guest Tdeans]

This could be really beneficial for the sport, as clubs won't no longer be able to be paying players wages like a 100K a week meaning that the gap between the big four and the rest of them may become smaller and allow teams to break into it. Cause fuck knows Fat Mike isn't gonna be paying those wages out anytime soon

[BlueStar]

If people don't go to Sunderland matches - or any other, for that matter - it's because the viewing experience doesn't compare with the experience of watching football in a pub. That may be for many reasons, many of which are personal to each match-going fan, but I'd say high ticket prices, shit stewards, shit and extortionately-priced food and similarly extortionately-priced beer contribute a great deal to why someone would prefer watching in a pub to watching in the stadium.

 

This is the angle Sky will push, rather than saying "We want a tight grip on rights to make billions of pounds" they'll claim the ability to watch matches on TV at 3pm will hurt attendances.

 

Never mind the fact they do things like change games to an early kick off at short notice so fans travelling from the other end of the country have to change their travel plans and get up at 5am just to make it to the match.

[Guest neesy111]

All TV money should be used to lower ticket prices.

[Taylor Swift]

If attendances are hurt then things must change with the viewing experience in the stadium to recover lost fans. An easy way to accomplish that would be to lower prices. That benefits the average consumer.

 

However, if you lower ticket prices, clubs' revenues will decline, which would lead to them being less competitive relative to other teams. However, because this will be a league-wide phenomenon, the loss revenue will result in clubs attempting to squeeze costs, the main one being wages. So that should lead to lower wages. I'd also say that when Sky's virtual monopoly is abolished, TV deals will be worth much less. No one is going to pay £1bn+ to show 25% of the games when their competitor will pay significantly less. That should also lead to clubs squeezing costs; the main one, again, being wages. But wages have been spiralling for over a decade. We see clubs in the Premiership paying out more than 70% of their revenue in wages. That is patently unsustainable.

 

This, in combination with the financial fair play rules, leads me to believe that the bubble will burst in football. European clubs last year lost a combined £1bn++. That's a huge sum of money that has gone out of football. That's been the case for the past decade or so, so a lot of money has gone out of football. Some of it has been financed by owners, but a lot of it has been financed by debt. Now, when revenues decline, as they will if this ruling stands because tv deals will be worth less, this debt will be much harder to service. I think we'll see a few clubs with massive debt struggling to survive in 5+ years.

 

In the end, the money that goes in and out of football has to be relatively balanced. If a lot of money comes in, then you have inflation (transfer fees and wages have exploded, except money hasn't really come in to football, it has just been financed by debt). If you have a lot of money that goes out, you get deflation. Football will eventually have to go through a period of deflation because the numbers just don't make sense right now. Wages are going higher. Transfer fees are going higher, yet revenue has not increased by the same percentages. Now if tv revenue declines, that will be a major squeeze. And if clubs have to lower ticket prices, that will be another major squeeze, since about 50% of a club's revenue comes from tickets and attendance-related services. I just don't see how football will survive in the state that it's currently in.

[Guest Tdeans]

If attendances are hurt then things must change with the viewing experience in the stadium to recover lost fans. An easy way to accomplish that would be to lower prices. That benefits the average consumer.

 

However, if you lower ticket prices, clubs' revenues will decline, which would lead to them being less competitive relative to other teams. However, because this will be a league-wide phenomenon, the loss revenue will result in clubs attempting to squeeze costs, the main one being wages. So that should lead to lower wages. I'd also say that when Sky's virtual monopoly is abolished, TV deals will be worth much less. No one is going to pay £1bn+ to show 25% of the games when their competitor will pay significantly less. That should also lead to clubs squeezing costs; the main one, again, being wages. But wages have been spiralling for over a decade. We see clubs in the Premiership paying out more than 70% of their revenue in wages. That is patently unsustainable.

 

This, in combination with the financial fair play rules, leads me to believe that the bubble will burst in football. European clubs last year lost a combined £1bn++. That's a huge sum of money that has gone out of football. That's been the case for the past decade or so, so a lot of money has gone out of football. Some of it has been financed by owners, but a lot of it has been financed by debt. Now, when revenues decline, as they will if this ruling stands because tv deals will be worth less, this debt will be much harder to service. I think we'll see a few clubs with massive debt struggling to survive in 5+ years.

 

In the end, the money that goes in and out of football has to be relatively balanced. If a lot of money comes in, then you have inflation (transfer fees and wages have exploded, except money hasn't really come in to football, it has just been financed by debt). If you have a lot of money that goes out, you get deflation. Football will eventually have to go through a period of deflation because the numbers just don't make sense right now. Wages are going higher. Transfer fees are going higher, yet revenue has not increased by the same percentages. Now if tv revenue declines, that will be a major squeeze. And if clubs have to lower ticket prices, that will be another major squeeze, since about 50% of a club's revenue comes from tickets and attendance-related services. I just don't see how football will survive in the state that it's currently in.

 

Oh come on as if football is really ever gonna stop. Its the most popular game in the world bar none. The worst is that clubs such as Man utd will collapse under their own debt but to me good riddance. I don't like fat mike but at lease he's made sure the club is finacialy viable.

[JH]

I've always thought the TV attendances debate has been a bit flawed anyway.

 

You just have to look at attendances for games midweek and Saturday evening/Sunday on the TV to see that it doesn't affect attendances that much.

[Stifler]

The thing is Sky have shot themselves in the foot. It's their high prices the charge to pub that has put pub landlord/landladies into the arms of foreign channels. Had they have charged a reasonable price then this would never have happened. No pub can really afford to pay the price for Sky, unless every pint was £5 and the pub was packed out all day not just during one game.

 

Surely they would make money from pubs if they charged something like £100 a month for Skysports, instead of £1,000's, since more pubs would be able to it.

[NG32]

Niall Quinn reacts:

 

http://www.safc.com/news/20110204/quinns-message-for-pub-viewers_2256213_2285484

 

Niall Quinn has delivered a strong message to those supporters opting to watch the club's games via illegal broadcasts in public houses.

The Sunderland chairman chose to spoke out after an advocate of the European Court of Justice delivered a legal opinion yesterday against the Premier League and broadcasters.

Quinn says he would never criticise any supporter who does not attend for financial reasons but has questioned those who choose to take what he describes as the "easy option".

 

"Contrary to the opinion of the Advocate General, the illegal showing of Saturday 3pm fixtures involving Sunderland has an extremely detrimental effect on our attendances at the Stadium of Light," said Quinn.

"I can point to the evidence uncovered by an agency who covertly visited pubs and clubs in our catchment area and witnessed thousands watching the illegal broadcasts. My belief is a significant number of these people are taking the easy option of spending their money in the pub watching their team as opposed to supporting their team and helping to create a better atmosphere at the Stadium.

"Our attendances are down for a couple of reasons and the economic uncertainly right now is a factor. I would never criticise anyone who doesn't come to the Stadium because of financial constraints but I despise those who spend far more than the price of a ticket watching some overseas commentator describing the action at the nearby Stadium of Light.

"All clubs thrive on full stadiums. Loud, passionate support is the backbone of football and when our stadium is full we are a force to be reckoned with. I know this firsthand - when I was a player we could beat teams from the second they walked out of the tunnel, the atmosphere was so intimidating.

"To anyone watching the game illegally in the pub I will continue to say - by doing so you're not supporting your team, you're actually damaging the progress of the club. We have a real chance here to make this club feel great again but to do it we need everyone behind us. I would urge these people in the pubs and clubs to come back to the Stadium of Light.

 

"We have made a commitment to keeping our prices realistic , with our match tickets 50% cheaper than some clubs, so we're doing what we can to make it as easy as possible for people to come and support their team. And I reiterate, despite this opinion yesterday, it is still illegal to show games in this fashion."

A Premier League statement read: "The Premier League are currently considering the detail of Advocate General Kokott's Opinion but our initial view is that it is not compatible with the existing body of EU case law and would damage the interests of broadcasters and viewers of Premier League football across the EU.

 

"The Opinion expressed by Advocate General Kokott may reflect a particular policy view in relation to the provision of audio-visual services throughout the EU. However, if her opinion were to be reflected in the ECJ's judgment, it would prevent rights holders across Europe from marketing their rights in a way which meets demand from broadcasters whose clear preference is to acquire, and pay for, exclusive rights within their own territory only and to use those rights to create services which satisfy the cultural preferences of their viewers within that territory.

 

"We would hope that when the ECJ comes to its judgment in our case that the current European law, framed to help promote, celebrate and develop the cultural differences within the EU, is upheld.

 

"If the European Commission wants to create a pan-European licensing model for sports, film and music then it must go through the proper consultative and legislative processes to change the law rather than attempting to force through legislative changes via the courts.

 

"The ECJ is there to enforce the law, not change it."

 

So his mong fans are happy to sit in a boozer and watch the game but wont actually attend a game.

 

Hmm Quinny lad, you need to ask yourself a few questions.

[Guest neesy111]

Football will collapse under itself, it's already been too greedy.  That greed will go further until we will see almost a recession within football itself where banks and those institutions who have borrowed the money to clubs want it back.

 

How Real Madrid have got away with their debt problems for over 12 years is beyond me, they should be technically bankrupt.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The thing is Sky have shot themselves in the foot. It's their high prices the charge to pub that has put pub landlord/landladies into the arms of foreign channels. Had they have charged a reasonable price then this would never have happened. No pub can really afford to pay the price for Sky, unless every pint was £5 and the pub was packed out all day not just during one game.

 

Spot on.

 

Same with illegal streams of games from abroad. If there was a decent quality and reasonably-priced way to watch your club's games when you can't attend, it wouldn't be so much of a problem.

 

As with the music and film industries, the football industry just hasn't moved fast enough to supply people with what they want at a decent price.

[Guest neesy111]

The thing is Sky have shot themselves in the foot. It's their high prices the charge to pub that has put pub landlord/landladies into the arms of foreign channels. Had they have charged a reasonable price then this would never have happened. No pub can really afford to pay the price for Sky, unless every pint was £5 and the pub was packed out all day not just during one game.

 

Spot on.

 

Same with illegal streams of games from abroad. If there was a decent quality and reasonably-priced way to watch your club's games when you can't attend, it wouldn't be so much of a problem.

 

As with the music and film industries, the football industry just hasn't moved fast enough to supply people with what they want at a decent price.

 

Very True.

 

Fact is, we live in a very small world where it's easy to stream video from the other side of the planet in seconds.  Sky is already on a loser with Satelite technology which will be redundant within 10-15 years as a means to broadcast on.  Cable is the future with on-demand video.

[Stifler]

I'd laugh my ass off if Virgin media out bid them for the next set of rights, or even ESPN.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The thing is Sky have shot themselves in the foot. It's their high prices the charge to pub that has put pub landlord/landladies into the arms of foreign channels. Had they have charged a reasonable price then this would never have happened. No pub can really afford to pay the price for Sky, unless every pint was £5 and the pub was packed out all day not just during one game.

 

Spot on.

 

Same with illegal streams of games from abroad. If there was a decent quality and reasonably-priced way to watch your club's games when you can't attend, it wouldn't be so much of a problem.

 

As with the music and film industries, the football industry just hasn't moved fast enough to supply people with what they want at a decent price.

 

Very True.

 

Fact is, we live in a very small world where it's easy to stream video from the other side of the planet in seconds.  Sky is already on a loser with Satelite technology which will be redundant within 10-15 years as a means to broadcast on.  Cable is the future with on-demand video.

 

Interesting point on the Satellite TV, Sky have already started to experiment with internet TV TBF to them, with their website service and things like XBox Live. The problem is it's still too expensive for people who don't have Sky TV in their living rooms.