Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[themanupstairs]

 

Greatest of our time? Aye. By a country mile.

 

Greatest ever? Nowhere near yet. Messi really must prove he can hack it outside of the Barcelona teams and systems, to come anywhere near his compatriot Maradona, let alone Pele.

 

 

[Guest sydneycove]

 

Greatest of our time? Aye. By a country mile.

 

Greatest ever? Nowhere near yet. Messi really must prove he can hack it outside of the Barcelona teams and systems, to come anywhere near his compatriot Maradona, let alone Pele.

 

 

 

You do realise Pele never played for a European team right?

 

You do realise the only team other than Santos that Pele represented was New york right?

 

You do realise how stupid your statement is now right?

[Flip]

There is always that argument as well that Messi comes up against a much higher standard of player these days. Pele and the Crazy Druggo had to deal with people attempting to hack them yes but Messi has to deal with much better defences in technical and tactical ability.

 

But like I said, it all comes down to talent and who dominated his defenders the most, and in that matter Pele wins. I mean let Messi be consistent for another 8 years before we start talking, I love Messi and all of us Brazilian wish he was Brazilian but there is a long way and a very long way to be considered the greatest of all time. And I to be honest doubt he'll be there to even surpass Maradona. To be the best, you have to stat by being recognized as the best in your own country and I have my doubts he'll be better than Maradona or as the people who experienced the 50s say Di Stefano. Don't forget Di Stefano won the CL 5 times in a row, best player in the World twice scored almost 500goals in 650 matches (and also played for 3 national teams).

 

Except Romario played 200 friendlies against s*** opposition to get to that number, Pele wasn't looking for a record hence the 1200+ and Romario like 3-4 goals above 1000 (which is still debatable).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Goalscoring_and_appearance_record

 

Also includes friendlies and what not.

 

Sure, but remember that Pele wasn't looking for a 1000 goals and Pele's friendlies were games against very very good opposition. At that time the many friendlies were against Argentinian teams and European teams and not like Romario who arranged friendlies himself against non-division sides to score 8 goals a game. Santos played Real Madrid and so on at the time who were considered the best in Europe. Therefore you can count Pele's goals in friendlies as relevant in a way, while Romario was like I said against much much inferior teams.

[Flip]

 

Greatest of our time? Aye. By a country mile.

 

Greatest ever? Nowhere near yet. Messi really must prove he can hack it outside of the Barcelona teams and systems, to come anywhere near his compatriot Maradona, let alone Pele.

 

 

 

You do realise Pele never played for a European team right?

 

You do realise the only team other than Santos that Pele represented was New york right?

 

You do realise how stupid your statement is now right?

 

 

I think he has a point, maybe he doesn't have to prove it outside Barcelona at club level, but at some stage he must prove it with Argentina or he wont ever reach the same bracket as the other great ones. 

[Ginola]

The 'Pele never played for a European team' argument doesn't really work given the standard of the Brazilian league back then. I do agree that Messi doesn't need to move to another club to prove himself though.

[Flip]

The 'Pele never played for a European team' argument doesn't really work given the standard of the Brazilian league back then. I do agree that Messi doesn't need to move to another club to prove himself though.

 

In sydneycoves defence he wasn't actually using that as an argument. It's most that like most he doesn't agree that Messi has to change club, which I for one am against (why would he change, why would he even consider it when he's winning everything) but at the same time at some point in his career he will have to win something big with his national team.

[Guest sydneycove]

There is always that argument as well that Messi comes up against a much higher standard of player these days. Pele and the Crazy Druggo had to deal with people attempting to hack them yes but Messi has to deal with much better defences in technical and tactical ability.

 

But like I said, it all comes down to talent and who dominated his defenders the most, and in that matter Pele wins. I mean let Messi be consistent for another 8 years before we start talking, I love Messi and all of us Brazilian wish he was Brazilian but there is a long way and a very long way to be considered the greatest of all time. And I to be honest doubt he'll be there to even surpass Maradona. To be the best, you have to stat by being recognized as the best in your own country and I have my doubts he'll be better than Maradona or as the people who experienced the 50s say Di Stefano. Don't forget Di Stefano won the CL 5 times in a row, best player in the World twice scored almost 500goals in 650 matches (and also played for 3 national teams).

 

Except Romario played 200 friendlies against s*** opposition to get to that number, Pele wasn't looking for a record hence the 1200+ and Romario like 3-4 goals above 1000 (which is still debatable).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Goalscoring_and_appearance_record

 

Also includes friendlies and what not.

 

Sure, but remember that Pele wasn't looking for a 1000 goals and Pele's friendlies were games against very very good opposition. At that time the many friendlies were against Argentinian teams and European teams and not like Romario who arranged friendlies himself against non-division sides to score 8 goals a game. Santos played Real Madrid and so on at the time who were considered the best in Europe. Therefore you can count Pele's goals in friendlies as relevant in a way, while Romario was like I said against much much inferior teams.

 

Not disagreeing at all about the goals just making sure that people realise facts as you can see above by themanupstairs saying Pele is greater than Messi because Messi hasn't tested himself outside of Barca.

 

I don't think you quite understand my argument here though. I'm not arguing that Messi is already better than Cryuff, Di Stefano or Puskas yet and I am nowhere near the level of thought that he is better than the two greatest in Maradona and Pele my argument is that people need to stop making excuses to not including him in the top 10 players of all time. The kid is 24 and just became Barca's second highest goal scorer and moved into the Spanish top 20 and that is my point Messi is still only 24 and won't peak for another 4 - 5 years and he is already this good and with the better protection, health and living standards of todays footballers he could go on to play for another 10 years with ease.

[Tisd09]

Its so difficult to compare players in different era's. Could Maradona/Pele hack it in today's game as they were back then? We just don't know. All we can judge players on is what they did in their era. Maradona and Pele were the best of their era. Messi is the best now. For me they are all in the same bracket. Messi has still abit to do to live up to the reps of Maradona and Pele as they have both won World Cups. Telentwise I believe he is as good as them. In years to come he will be mentioned in the same teir as Pele/Maradona/Beckenbeur(Sp?)/Cruyff (sp?)/Zidane etc

[Guest sydneycove]

Lets not forget at the age of 24 the only thing Pele had that Messi doesn't is one WC medal (2 technically though he only played 3/4 of 1 match in the 1962 WC due to injury) with a Brasilian team of freakish ability all over the park. There is not 1 weak player in the 1958 WC winning Brasil team.

[Flip]

There is always that argument as well that Messi comes up against a much higher standard of player these days. Pele and the Crazy Druggo had to deal with people attempting to hack them yes but Messi has to deal with much better defences in technical and tactical ability.

 

But like I said, it all comes down to talent and who dominated his defenders the most, and in that matter Pele wins. I mean let Messi be consistent for another 8 years before we start talking, I love Messi and all of us Brazilian wish he was Brazilian but there is a long way and a very long way to be considered the greatest of all time. And I to be honest doubt he'll be there to even surpass Maradona. To be the best, you have to stat by being recognized as the best in your own country and I have my doubts he'll be better than Maradona or as the people who experienced the 50s say Di Stefano. Don't forget Di Stefano won the CL 5 times in a row, best player in the World twice scored almost 500goals in 650 matches (and also played for 3 national teams).

 

Except Romario played 200 friendlies against s*** opposition to get to that number, Pele wasn't looking for a record hence the 1200+ and Romario like 3-4 goals above 1000 (which is still debatable).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Goalscoring_and_appearance_record

 

Also includes friendlies and what not.

 

Sure, but remember that Pele wasn't looking for a 1000 goals and Pele's friendlies were games against very very good opposition. At that time the many friendlies were against Argentinian teams and European teams and not like Romario who arranged friendlies himself against non-division sides to score 8 goals a game. Santos played Real Madrid and so on at the time who were considered the best in Europe. Therefore you can count Pele's goals in friendlies as relevant in a way, while Romario was like I said against much much inferior teams.

 

Not disagreeing at all about the goals just making sure that people realise facts as you can see above by themanupstairs saying Pele is greater than Messi because Messi hasn't tested himself outside of Barca.

 

I don't think you quite understand my argument here though. I'm not arguing that Messi is already better than Cryuff, Di Stefano or Puskas yet and I am nowhere near the level of thought that he is better than the two greatest in Maradona and Pele my argument is that people need to stop making excuses to not including him in the top 10 players of all time. The kid is 24 and just became Barca's second highest goal scorer and moved into the Spanish top 20 and that is my point Messi is still only 24 and won't peak for another 4 - 5 years and he is already this good and with the better protection, health and living standards of todays footballers he could go on to play for another 10 years with ease.

 

Don't agree with the bold bit for a slight second. You cannot know that for sure, I mean Raul peaked at 24-25, Fat Ronaldos start to his career was better than Messis and Ronaldo had to adapt to two different leagues as he left Brazil and he also never peaked at 28-29 possibly because of injuries but not certainly down to injuries.

 

I hope you understand what I mean. Messi is very good, but Ronaldo was as good at that age, don't forget that. Ronaldo was running rampage in PSV Eindhoven even though he had a horrific injury spell there too, he was a year younger than Messi was at the time he broke the Barcelona record that Messi broke two years ago. Ronaldo was until 23 better than what Messi was at that age, then injuries crippled him. Also Messi has a such superior group of players around him than what Ronaldo had.

 

 

[Guest sydneycove]

Absolutely for natural, unpolished talent Ronaldo was in my opinion better than anyone but Pele. He had more talent than even Maradona and if it wasn't for his injuries he would have gone ahead of Maradona. Unfortunately due to his injuries he never reached the heights he could have which I for one would have absolutely loved to have seen.

 

The thing people seem to forget when comparing Messi to Pele on an international stage is who they have around them. Argentina has some great players now but that Brasil team of 1958 before Garrincha went completely mental was probably the greatest sport team of any sport ever.

[Flip]

Lets not forget at the age of 24 the only thing Pele had that Messi doesn't is one WC medal (2 technically though he only played 3/4 of 1 match in the 1962 WC due to injury) with a Brasilian team of freakish ability all over the park. There is not 1 weak player in the 1958 WC winning Brasil team.

 

Sorry that's utter bullshit. Pele didn't start playing until the 3rd game during that World Cup, that after the team had not played very well even though they beat Austria 3-0 and drew to England. That team didn't have freakish ability all over the park, in the 1970 you could possibly say they did, but in 1958 they certainly didn't. In 1962, the World Cup was won by a single player, Garrincha and that in the same way Maradona won 86' but he gets no credit for that outside South America as people tend to forget him when discusing hte greatest of all times.

[Guest sydneycove]

Lets not forget at the age of 24 the only thing Pele had that Messi doesn't is one WC medal (2 technically though he only played 3/4 of 1 match in the 1962 WC due to injury) with a Brasilian team of freakish ability all over the park. There is not 1 weak player in the 1958 WC winning Brasil team.

 

Sorry that's utter bullshit. Pele didn't start playing until the 3rd game during that World Cup, that after the team had not played very well even though they beat Austria 3-0 and drew to England. That team didn't have freakish ability all over the park, in the 1970 you could possibly say they did, but in 1958 they certainly didn't. In 1962, the World Cup was won by a single player, Garrincha and that in the same way Maradona won 86' but he gets no credit for that outside South America as people tend to forget him when discusing hte greatest of all times.

 

Any team that could beat the Soviets 5 - 2 had to be ridiculously good. The Soviets were favourites to win the tournament for a reason. The 1962 WC shouldn't be counted when rating Pele because as I said he played 3/4 of 1 match the rest of that tournament was Garrincha's.

[Flip]

Lets not forget at the age of 24 the only thing Pele had that Messi doesn't is one WC medal (2 technically though he only played 3/4 of 1 match in the 1962 WC due to injury) with a Brasilian team of freakish ability all over the park. There is not 1 weak player in the 1958 WC winning Brasil team.

 

Sorry that's utter bullshit. Pele didn't start playing until the 3rd game during that World Cup, that after the team had not played very well even though they beat Austria 3-0 and drew to England. That team didn't have freakish ability all over the park, in the 1970 you could possibly say they did, but in 1958 they certainly didn't. In 1962, the World Cup was won by a single player, Garrincha and that in the same way Maradona won 86' but he gets no credit for that outside South America as people tend to forget him when discusing hte greatest of all times.

 

Any team that could beat the Soviets 5 - 2 had to be ridiculously good. The Soviets were favourites to win the tournament for a reason. The 1962 WC shouldn't be counted when rating Pele because as I said he played 3/4 of 1 match the rest of that tournament was Garrincha's.

 

It beat the Soviet Union 2-0 when Pele and Garrincha entered the team, without them I doubt they would've won the World Cup or even that match.

 

[Village Idiot]

Scored 2 goals tonight to become Barcelona's second highest all time scorer.  194 goals and counting.

 

If he scores another 42 goals this season he will become Barcelona's all time highest scorer.. at the age of 24.  Staggering.

 

Kubala is arguably Barça's greatest legend, to see that Messi's equaled his goalscoring record at age 24 is huge, huge for us. And he may become our all-time top goalscorer at age 25!

 

People like me grew up hearing from our dads the tales of Kubala and the things he did. In my time, I'll be able to tell my sons that I saw Lionel Messi live... one of the greatest joys I'll have.

[Lush Vlad]

Has Messi got 14 goals already so far this season?  Fucking ridiculous 

 

I still can't believe the bullshit that gets spouted about Messi:

 

"he needs to move clubs to prove himself"

"he needs to win a World Cup to be considered as one of the best, if not the best"

"he needs to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke" 

 

FFS if people just used their eyes 

[themanupstairs]

 

Greatest of our time? Aye. By a country mile.

 

Greatest ever? Nowhere near yet. Messi really must prove he can hack it outside of the Barcelona teams and systems, to come anywhere near his compatriot Maradona, let alone Pele.

 

 

 

You do realise Pele never played for a European team right?

 

You do realise the only team other than Santos that Pele represented was New york right?

 

You do realise how stupid your statement is now right?

 

what a patronizing little dweeb you are.

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca, especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football.

 

Messi needs to show that he can "improvise" outside of this system, especially on the international stage, to be spoken of in the same breath as Pele and Maradona. For the record, I believe he can, and will do it! It's not a sleight on Messi himself though, more so on modern football, with players like him having to go through grueling schedules and an endless number of matches, before they can turn out for their national teams in the big competitions.

[Guest sydneycove]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

[Flip]

Has Messi got 14 goals already so far this season?  f***ing ridiculous 

 

I still can't believe the bullshit that gets spouted about Messi:

 

"he needs to move clubs to prove himself"

"he needs to win a World Cup to be considered as one of the best, if not the best"

"he needs to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke" 

 

FFS if people just used their eyes 

 

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point.

[Flip]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did it with the national team, I for one aint arguing he has to do it with fucking Stoke because no one wants or would be able to making that turd team into a good one. However, like ive said at some point he has to do it with the national team, he's been non-existant with the Argentinian side and that's not consistency.

[Guest sydneycove]

Has Messi got 14 goals already so far this season?  f***ing ridiculous 

 

I still can't believe the bullshit that gets spouted about Messi:

 

"he needs to move clubs to prove himself"

"he needs to win a World Cup to be considered as one of the best, if not the best"

"he needs to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke" 

 

FFS if people just used their eyes 

 

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point.

 

But do you not also agree that South American fans now have higher expectations for players leaving the continent and thus it will be harder for messi to reach that level of appreciation now. The fact is South American's are the best in the world at football and over the years rightly so they have raised there expectations. Look at Hulk and Vanger Love for good examples of raised expectations. 20 years ago they would have been considered amazing now with the ammount of talent being poached by Europe, Asia and the Middle East South American fans have come to expect more of the players that leave.

[themanupstairs]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did show it by winning 3 world cups didn't he? Personally I've never agreed with comparisons between players when one of them is still in the early years of his career. Take for example the Shearer vs Rooney debate. I don't think we can debate that properly until Rooney has retired and we can take look at both of their stats. By the time Messi has retired, we'll have a clearer idea of where he ranks among the world's greatest ever. Again I'll say, by the time he's hung up his boots, IMO he will be considered the greatest that ever lived. If his career were to end tomorrow though, he wouldn't be.

[Lush Vlad]

Has Messi got 14 goals already so far this season?  f***ing ridiculous 

 

I still can't believe the bullshit that gets spouted about Messi:

 

"he needs to move clubs to prove himself"

"he needs to win a World Cup to be considered as one of the best, if not the best"

"he needs to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke" 

 

FFS if people just used their eyes 

 

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point.

 

Where have I said he is or will be better than the two players you've mentioned?

 

For the record, I'm not fond of comparing players over different generations, too many variables, not a fair test or whatever it was they used to say in GCSE Science!

 

I just find the lines about him having to leave Barca or do it all on his own for Argentina (who had a insane coke head as manager last World Cup) to somehow prove himself are lazy and misinformed at best.  He delivers it in the Champions League every single season for Barca and to the person that said Barca would probably be as good without Messi.  I would personally say, no, no they wouldn't.

 

He's streets ahead of any player at the moment IMO and has been for the past 2 or 3 years.

[Guest sydneycove]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did it with the national team, I for one aint arguing he has to do it with f***ing Stoke because no one wants or would be able to making that turd team into a good one. However, like ive said at some point he has to do it with the national team, he's been non-existant with the Argentinian side and that's not consistency.

 

Which brings me back to my original argument that in their respective national teams Pele and Maradona had it a lot easier than Messi does. Argentina have turned the coaching position in to a complete circus and there has been no stability recently especially with giving the role to Maradona who leaves a lot to be desired regarding tactical decisions.

[Guest sydneycove]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did show it by winning 3 world cups didn't he? Personally I've never agreed with comparisons between players when one of them is still in the early years of his career. Take for example the Shearer vs Rooney debate. I don't think we can debate that properly until Rooney has retired and we can take look at both of their stats. By the time Messi has retired, we'll have a clearer idea of where he ranks among the world's greatest ever. Again I'll say, by the time he's hung up his boots, IMO he will be considered the greatest that ever lived. If his career were to end tomorrow though, he wouldn't be.

 

When did this change from a debate discussing club career to international career must have missed that memo. Read above for my take on why Messi hasn't "delivered" at an international level. Also add the fact that Diego and Pele were both given free roles in their respective international teams where as Messi keeps getting stuck out on the wing.

 

But my question to you is why does Messi apparently need to leave the Barcelona set up to prove himself when Pele never left Santos (till the end of his career). Both teams were/are the best in the world at the respective times and both had a system set up from the youth teams which both players flourish in.