Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[DubblyDubblyDubbly]

Club level.. top banana

Country... shite

but less shite than Lamps/Gerrard/Rooney etc etc

[Interpolic]

Messi's been canny good this tournament on the whole, will never understand why Argentina look such a limited side given their talent elsewhere and the opposition they've faced though.

[Wullie]

The problem Messi has in comparison to Maradona in '86 is that teams can do a lot more preparation work on shutting down a particular player when they can watch every minute of his career in glorious HD.

 

Most of them have come to the conclusion that the way to do it is to sit deep, kill the game and play for penalties. Argentina are getting a lot of flak for being dull but it's not really their fault that nobody wants a football match to break out against them.

 

One of the things I love about him is that having played for Barcelona, he's not the slightest bit interested in winning cheap free kicks 40 yards from goal like Neymar has focused on, he just tries to run through challenges by bouncing off them or vaulting over them. It works to his detriment though in games like tonight when it looks like he's just losing the ball as he tries to run through half a dozen Dutch players who are focused on nothing other than him instead of "being clever" and hurling himself to the floor.

 

Argentina's problem has been some altogether atrocious performances from some of the supporting cast up front, particularly when it comes to finishing.

[Mole_Toonfan]

He's Argentina's 2nd top scorer behind Batistuta and has averaged a goal a game over his last 25 for his country.

 

Sounds real shit to me.

[triggs]

Club level.. top banana

Country... shite

but less shite than Lamps/Gerrard/Rooney etc etc

Shite? FFS

[Disco]

Messi's been canny good this tournament on the whole, will never understand why Argentina look such a limited side given their talent elsewhere and the opposition they've faced though.

 

As they showed last WC you can have all the strikers in the world but if you've only 1 or 2 players to give them the ball then it can be largely pointless. Even moreso when only 1 of their players, Di Maria, can burst beyond the game and open it up.

 

Wullie's nailed it, as per.

 

Argentina have looked as limited as Barça have in recent years when decent teams park the bus looking for a breakaway.

[Interpolic]

Most of them have come to the conclusion that the way to do it is to sit deep, kill the game and play for penalties. Argentina are getting a lot of flak for being dull but it's not really their fault that nobody wants a football match to break out against them.

 

Holland have been the first side Argentina have played that have been anywhere near their level tbf, you expect exceptional players to be able to impose themselves.

[Mr. Snrub]

Club level.. top banana

Country... shite

but less shite than Lamps/Gerrard/Rooney etc etc

 

If shite is scoring 24 goals in your last 26 international matches and being key to getting your team to a World Cup final, I'd really like to hear your opinion on great.

[Neil]

Club level.. top banana

Country... shite

but less shite than Lamps/Gerrard/Rooney etc etc

 

If shite is scoring 24 goals in your last 26 international matches and being key to getting your team to a World Cup final, I'd really like to hear your opinion on great.

 

Prepare for  geddon when he claims he didn't mean shite, just not as good as his club form.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Tbf to Argentina Di Maria was out and Aguero wasn't fit. Tonight they were basically 3 defensive midfielders with Messi, Higuain and Lavezzi.

 

No where near as expansive as they promised to be pre tournament.

[Disco]

They were never that expansive in the qualifiers, just ruthless when they got space or on the counter after initially breaking a team down.

[Mr. Snrub]

Enzo Perez was their best player aside from Mascherano and he was hauled off for some rat tailed junkie off his tits on heroin.

 

Sabella really lucked out with that sub.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Enzo Perez was their best player aside from Mascherano and he was hauled off for some rat tailed junkie off his tits on heroin.

 

Sabella really lucked out with that sub.

 

 

I was quite impressed with him, never really seen him before this WC.

[Wullie]

Most of them have come to the conclusion that the way to do it is to sit deep, kill the game and play for penalties. Argentina are getting a lot of flak for being dull but it's not really their fault that nobody wants a football match to break out against them.

 

Holland have been the first side Argentina have played that have been anywhere near their level tbf, you expect exceptional players to be able to impose themselves.

 

Switzerland were amongst the top seeds tbf, and only one place behind Argentina in the world rankings (Holland are 10 places back).

 

You have a valid point on great players imposing themselves but I can't believe how many chances Messi has put on for his teammates in the whole tournament that have been completely fluffed.

[mrmojorisin75]

The problem Messi has in comparison to Maradona in '86 is that teams can do a lot more preparation work on shutting down a particular player when they can watch every minute of his career in glorious HD.

 

Most of them have come to the conclusion that the way to do it is to sit deep, kill the game and play for penalties. Argentina are getting a lot of flak for being dull but it's not really their fault that nobody wants a football match to break out against them.

 

this is obviously the truth but there's more to it imo, andy gray made the point commentating last night and that is the way argentina themselves play is far too static in midfield so when the ball does go into messi (or higuain/lavezzi) there's no-one getting beyond them and opening up space making it so easy to crowd messi out

 

sure he'll find the odd bit of space but the margins are preposterously tight for him to be able to do anything, it was actually the same for robben for 85 minutes or whatever yesterday when the dutch stood in straight lines not moving he didn't get a kick of the ball but when they came out and played near the end robben was able to find space

 

i also think the argies struggle badly to inject any pace into their counter-attacks when they are able to break on a team who come onto them for once...ironically as has been said playing germany might be the best thing for messi as they'll probably play their own game, just depends whether argentina can hold them back and give messi a chance

 

in summary he's been pardewed

[Incognito]

I think he slots in the upper echelon of the group below Pele and Maradona. However he could join them with a match winning performance in Sunday.

[Guest]

Club level.. top banana

Country... s****

but less s**** than Lamps/Gerrard/Rooney etc etc

s****? FFS

 

Laziest thing to say though. 23 goals in 24 games over the last 3 years. Tragic.

[Taylor Swift]

If he does well in the final, he's up there for me because no one can compare to his club career and it's obvious that CL football is superior to international football. He dominates the CL to a ridiculous extent.

[Incognito]

If he does well in the final, he's up there for me because no one can compare to his club career and it's obvious that CL football is superior to international football. He dominates the CL to a ridiculous extent.

That's your opinion and all power to you.  However I don't believe Champions league is superior to International tournament football. The only thing about International football that is shite is the friendlies.

[Taylor Swift]

The quality of the games isn't close to being on par with the CL, IMO. Of course, it's a different challenge for players because they aren't extremely well-drilled but the best CL teams could take out the best international teams easily.

[Tooj]

So, if Argentina win this on Sunday is he oficially the greatest player of all time with no arguments?

No.

[Guest firetotheworks]

With my own eyes there is no one that I've ever seen that's better. It's easy to justify with stats and the only thing left is winning the World Cup. I dunno if he'll do it, but I think you already have to say that he's the greatest or at least on par with Maradona and Pele. Messi is dominant in modern day football, which is a big advantage over those two for me.

[Tooj]

With my own eyes there is no one that I've ever seen that's better. It's easy to justify with stats and the only thing left is winning the World Cup. I dunno if he'll do it, but I think you already have to say that he's the greatest or at least on par with Maradona and Pele. Messi is dominant in modern day football, which is a big advantage over those two for me.

 

Yet you could easily say would Messi have survived the brutality that Pele or Maradona faced?

 

Think I posted something on here a while ago why I firmly believe Pele is the greatest of all time, simply because he is the most complete player to have ever played the game and for me that still stands.

 

This is coming from a massive Messi fanboy as well btw. (Ask Shak  )

[Incognito]

With my own eyes there is no one that I've ever seen that's better. It's easy to justify with stats and the only thing left is winning the World Cup. I dunno if he'll do it, but I think you already have to say that he's the greatest or at least on par with Maradona and Pele. Messi is dominant in modern day football, which is a big advantage over those two for me.

 

Yet you could easily say would Messi have survived the brutality that Pele or Maradona faced?

 

Think I posted something on here a while ago why I firmly believe Pele is the greatest of all time, simply because he is the most complete player to have ever played the game and for me that still stands.

 

This is coming from a massive Messi fanboy as well btw. (Ask Shak  )

Just about to post this. Spot on. Maradona also gets some leeway here.  The game was physically harder in their day. Both were kicked from pillar to post. These days that doesn't happen to anywhere near the same regularity.

[Tooj]

For me it seems the name and aura of Pele count against him. Don't get me wrong his opinion counts for very little due to some of the absurd comments he makes and some of the products he has controversially endorsed. It seems that people will do anything to discredit the first real superstar of football. Let's not forgot that this is a man that once stopped a civil war, brought a game to a whole new nation in the United States, even after he retired it took Brazil 24 years to win a World Cup without him.

 

Look at his achievements as a 17 year old in the 1958 World Cup, has anybody ever scored a better goal in a World Cup Final than Pele did in 1958? Also why do people so easily dismiss the matches he played for Santos against European opposition? Santos at the time played matches against the best sides in Europe who were deemed the best around, yet Santos and Pele in particular didn't just win these games they quite frankly dominated against the very best teams in the world.

 

You rarely hear people say George Best, Di Stefano, Puskas Gerd Muller, Eusebio or Cruijff played against poor defences at the time to belittle their standing in the world of football so why is it acceptable to do this against Pele? Why do people often come out with the ignorance about the state the Brasilian league was in around the time of Pele? Back in Pele's era the Brasilian league was arguably the best in the world as most of their star players didn't play their trade abroad.

 

Their national team was dominant for the best part of a decade, so if the core of such a dominant squad didn't play abroad so why does this make the Brasilian league so poor in that era? I don't think they would've won the 1966 World Cup even if Pele was fit, as at that team it was very much a team in transition with the likes of Garrincha being on a downward spiral and players like Jairzinho not quite being ready at the time.

 

It seems the way people try to dismiss Pele's goalscoring achievement is that he scored the majority of his goals being put through on goal and only having tap-ins to score due to the opposition defences being so poor, never mind the fact he scored every variety of goal. Was it the poor defences that allowed him to score free-kicks or from 30 yards out so consistently?

 

Let's look at the 1970 World Cup, the tournament that guaranteed Pele a place as football's first footballing superstar. Of course part of this was due to the aura the 1970 Brasil team had, it being the first world cup that was televised in colour and made it more accessible to audiences etc. That Brasil team would've won that World Cup without Pele regardless as the team was that good and had some true footballing greats in there like Tostao, Carlos Alberto, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Gerson. Yet Pele stood head and shoulders above all of his team mates. This was a 29 year old Pele, was was past his peak as injuries had taken their toll and he was a completely different player to the Pele of his peak years of 5 years earlier before he had lost that explosiveness due to the injuries that he had sustained from brutal defending. His game was now about being a true playmaker (something which I could see Messi doing when he has lost some of his pace), bringing others into play with his fantastic vision, being the focal point of all of the attacking play of the team. Yet he still managed to put in one of the most iconic performances of any player in the history of the World Cup despite being past his best, yet his greatness enabled him to do this and he was that intelligent on the pitch he was enable to change his game.

 

Excluding all of the above based on his pure footballing talent, he is without a doubt the most complete player to have ever graced a football pitch which is why I rate him as the greatest player of all time. He wasn't just one footed like Maradona or Messi, he was equally adept with his left as he was with his right. Despite only being 5 foot 8 he had a great leap and scored many headers against far more physical or taller opposition. He had explosive pace and could run the 100m in 11 seconds. He was the greatest exponent of the bicycle kick there has ever been. He created many of the tricks people use today. He was often seen performing the "seal" dribble as a way of getting past his opponents, I've also never witnessed anybody hit the ball off an opposition player as a way of getting past them as he knew what trajectory the ball would go when going off them. (He also done this off referees). He had amazing dribbling speed and fantastic ball control, his movement of course was amazing. He inspired players around him and made them better players. His vision and footballing intelligence was world class which allowed him to turn into a playmaker late on in his career after he had lost some of that explosive pace. At times he often played in different positions on the pitch as he was good enough to do so and even once saved a penalty for Santos.

 

People also often say he wouldn't be as good in the modern game due to how technology has now been deployed and the enhancements the game has seen since then. Well if Pele was that good without all of the modern day nutrition and fitness regimes, having to use the old style balls, boots etc, how could he be in today's game with all of those advancements on this side?

 

Lastly some people might say he's not the greatest of all time but it simply cannot be argued that he is the most complete footballer to have ever played the game.