Demba Ba (now retired)

[Mole_Toonfan]

For 4-3-3 to work we need to be playing Marveaux in Cabaye's position and Ben Arfa needs to get back fit.....

 

So it wouldn't work at the moment anyway but long term i agree i don't think Cisse would continue not scoring any if we went back to the same system and playing style as last year.

 

Cisse's suffering is due to playing style and system IMO which attributes to a lack of service, of course it's not as easy as change the system because the playing style and mentality needs to be sorted out as well and players need to be moving off the ball and passing.

 

Knick a win against Wigan and after that start playing 4-2-3-1 with Anita-Tiote; Ben Arfa-Marveaux-Ba; Cisse until January and hopefully we get some reinforcements and some players come back and save the season from a total disaster.

 

Won't happen but we can hope.

[madras]

TCD, you've answered your own question by saying that he was scoring in a 4-4-2 against Villa and Chelsea... aye, with twenty and thirty yard volleys. He clearly wasn't getting the insane amount of chances we created for him in the 4-3-3, nor was he generally getting them in the other games we played 4-4-2 in.

 

Quite clear to me which is the formation that benefits the team most, rather than one player. Our wide players simply aren't good enough as wide forwards right now to enable us to play Ba on his own.

tbf he scored from around the pen spot in both games.

 

He scored two bang on the edge of the area, not from around the penalty spot.

both from inside the box and both after having time to control the ball and not so much as a push by way of a challenge. looked more spectacular but not as good or difficuilt as his goals v norwich and stoke which were from a bit closer but first touch under challenges.

 

anyway it's getting away from the point that we don't have to play 4-4-2 or 4-3-3, quite often you can look at man utd and arsenal and you can't pigeon hole them that way. we have the attacking (throughout the team not just 'forwards) to be able to do that.

[Ikon]

For 4-3-3 to work we need to be playing Marveaux in Cabaye's position and Ben Arfa needs to get back fit.....

 

So it wouldn't work at the moment anyway but long term i agree i don't think Cisse would continue not scoring any if we went back to the same system and playing style as last year.

 

Cisse's suffering is due to playing style and system IMO which attributes to a lack of service, of course it's not as easy as change the system because the playing style and mentality needs to be sorted out as well and players need to be moving off the ball and passing.

 

Knick a win against Wigan and after that start playing 4-2-3-1 with Anita-Tiote; Ben Arfa-Marveaux-Ba; Cisse until January and hopefully we get some reinforcements and some players come back and save the season from a total disaster.

 

Won't happen but we can hope.

 

That's the 4-2-3-1 i would like to see now as well (when HBA is fit) until january at least.

[Lotus]

I think our problem is don't have anyone who moves up into or drops deeper into the 'number 10' position when we're attacking. No one who's got the ball in between the CBs the midfield with their head up looking to play one of our forwards in. Whether it's Cabaye moving forward and either receiving the ball there and carrying it there or HBA drifting in or Ba dropping deep and looking to play Cisse in. It's that position that creates panic and indecision in the oppostion and once you've got them guessing then you can try an occasional direct approach or a long diagonal  or down the flanks and actually put a cross in but at the moment we're so one dimensional and what's more, we're pretty badf at it. It's like we've opted to rinse and repeat the one attacking tactic we're worst at.

[Cronky]

I think our problem is don't have anyone who moves up into or drops deeper into the 'number 10' position when we're attacking. No one who's got the ball in between the CBs the midfield with their head up looking to play one of our forwards in. Whether it's Cabaye moving forward and either receiving the ball there and carrying it there or HBA drifting in or Ba dropping deep and looking to play Cisse in. It's that position that creates panic and indecision in the oppostion and once you've got them guessing then you can try an occasional direct approach or a long diagonal  or down the flanks and actually put a cross in but at the moment we're so one dimensional and what's more, we're pretty badf at it. It's like we've opted to rinse and repeat the one attacking tactic we're worst at.

 

Yeah, we don't see enough of that pass into the feet of a player who's in between the opposition midfield and back four. Everything goes via the wings or direct to the strikers.

 

The Ba - Cisse combination, in whatever form, was never going to help matters. However, I can understand that there was pressure on Pardew to give it every chance. What puzzles me is that the strikers that we seemed to be going for in the summer - Carroll and De Jong - wouldn't particularly help either.

[Lotus]

I think our problem is don't have anyone who moves up into or drops deeper into the 'number 10' position when we're attacking. No one who's got the ball in between the CBs the midfield with their head up looking to play one of our forwards in. Whether it's Cabaye moving forward and either receiving the ball there and carrying it there or HBA drifting in or Ba dropping deep and looking to play Cisse in. It's that position that creates panic and indecision in the oppostion and once you've got them guessing then you can try an occasional direct approach or a long diagonal  or down the flanks and actually put a cross in but at the moment we're so one dimensional and what's more, we're pretty badf at it. It's like we've opted to rinse and repeat the one attacking tactic we're worst at.

 

Yeah, we don't see enough of that pass into the feet of a player who's in between the opposition midfield and back four. Everything goes via the wings or direct to the strikers.

 

The Ba - Cisse combination, in whatever form, was never going to help matters. However, I can understand that there was pressure on Pardew to give it every chance. What puzzles me is that the strikers that we seemed to be going for in the summer - Carroll and De Jong - wouldn't particularly help either.

 

There appears to be a distinct lack of strategy as to what he wants to do as it happens.

[Dr Venkman]

Ba is only behind Suarez and Van Persie in the top goal scorer chart. That's a big enough reason for him staying where he is.

 

We're absolutely fucking shit, the TEAM is rubbish, that's a reason for him to play as part of an interchanging front 3.

[Jack Flash]

Ba is only behind Suarez and Van Persie in the top goal scorer chart. That's a big enough reason for him staying where he is.

 

We're absolutely f***ing s***, the TEAM is rubbish, that's a reason for him to play as part of an interchanging front 3.

 

There's part of me wanting to see this 4-3-3 thing happen just so it gets put to bed and we don't have to read page after page of megaposts about it. It's unlikely to happen so why not just support/appreciate the player who's keeping us afloat?

[Dr Venkman]

Ba is only behind Suarez and Van Persie in the top goal scorer chart. That's a big enough reason for him staying where he is.

 

We're absolutely f***ing s***, the TEAM is rubbish, that's a reason for him to play as part of an interchanging front 3.

 

There's part of me wanting to see this 4-3-3 thing happen just so it gets put to bed and we don't have to read page after page of megaposts about it. It's unlikely to happen so why not just support/appreciate the player who's keeping us afloat?

 

I support and appreciate him every week. What do you mean you want to see it happen? Didn't you see it last season? Have you seen it this season when we've played it? Our players suit it more by virtue of it being more about passing and moving and less about getting it wide and passing it long. Ba scoring goals isn't a good enough reason not to change a team that's under-performing this badly.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Because he's taking the team down in the process? 

 

I don't think we can play 4-3-3 at the moment due to injuries anyway but earlier in the season we should have done.

[Jack Flash]

Ba is only behind Suarez and Van Persie in the top goal scorer chart. That's a big enough reason for him staying where he is.

 

We're absolutely f***ing s***, the TEAM is rubbish, that's a reason for him to play as part of an interchanging front 3.

 

There's part of me wanting to see this 4-3-3 thing happen just so it gets put to bed and we don't have to read page after page of megaposts about it. It's unlikely to happen so why not just support/appreciate the player who's keeping us afloat?

 

I support and appreciate him every week. What do you mean you want to see it happen? Didn't you see it last season? Have you seen it this season when we've played it? Our players suit it more by virtue of it being more about passing and moving and less about getting it wide and passing it long. Ba scoring goals isn't a good enough reason not to change a team that's under-performing this badly.

 

The players we had last season during that run are not the players we have now. They're massively unmotivated and have no confidence which is the exact opposite of that time last year. Just switching to for-free-free isn't magically going to turn them into what we had (briefly) last year.

 

This might confuse the Football Manager players but football isn't just about tactics.

[AlanSkÃrare]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

His individual ability and tendency to score goals from shit long balls saved us for a while.

 

Not any longer. Shift.

[Mole_Toonfan]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

His individual ability and tendency to score goals from s*** long balls saved us for a while.

 

Not any longer. Shift.

 

[Jack Flash]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

No team has every won a game playing 4-4-2?

 

Krul continually smashing it long is as big a problem as any tactical problem we have. Change that and other things will change. Or just blame Ba for everything?

[Ikon]

Or just blame Ba for everything?

 

Eh yeah, Ba out!!

[Lotus]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

No team has every won a game playing 4-4-2?

 

Krul continually smashing it long is as big a problem as any tactical problem we have. Change that and other things will change. Or just blame Ba for everything?

 

4-4-2 is very much about partnerships isn't? We have a few problems there. The front 2 aren't an effective partnership, the midfield 2 aren't an effective partnership. Bit of width in a 4-4-2 is essential, are we getting crosses in from the left? No, are we getting crosses in from the right? No.

If the above was working, if the players were making it work there would be no debate.

[Rich]

Think that's a pretty good point about partnerships Lotus. There's generally little-to-no understanding in most areas of the team and the two strikers seem to best exemplify this.

 

As well as we did last season in terms of being an entire unit, I do think there's a lot to be said for having "key zones" where you've got a couple of players or more who work particularly well together. The obvious one in recent times would be Coloccini, Enrique and Jonas as a trio and as two separate pairs (Colo/Enrique - Enrique/Jonas), but there was a lot to be said for Carroll and Nolan as well. Could perhaps even throw Barton into with those two.

 

There's fuck all like that now as far as I can see, we look more like a team of talented individuals doing their own thing at the best of times.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ba is the only real player in our team doing his job so yeah... lets put him wide or better still drop him or sell him. f***ing crazy!

 

As for this apparent bad attitude I don't see it, the guy generally works as hard as anyone in the team and seems to get more upset than most when we lose or he misses the target.

 

I don't see a selfish player at all and nor do I see a problematic one. As for him not wanting to play wide I don't blame him, he's a central striker and in that position all he has done is score goals. The fact him and Cisse is not working as a partnership has nowt to do with Ba playing central or even Cisse, its down to our shitty tactics and the form of the side.

 

Cabaye and Tiote this season haven't played well together, shall we put Tiote wide? Colo at left-back to make Taylor stand out more?

 

Its f***ing nonsense to suggest we need to or must move a player playing rather well in his current role, out wide, in order to make Cisse better or to get him amongst the goals.

 

By the way, when we reverted to 4-3-3 last season, Cisse spent most of the game in wide positions but because we were fluid in attack he also managed to get into the box a lot as well, as did Ba who could have scored a few goals in the 4-3-3 or in the so-called wide berth he was supposedly playing in that system. He was still getting chances but wasn't putting them away.

 

Ba and Cisse can play together but we need to give them more service and as a team need to attack the opposition more. Both spend most of the game battling for a high ball with defenders and when they do somehow manage to win the ball, there is f*** all around them to get an attacking going. The gap between them and midfield is huge and they are so close together up front because the ball is often hit down the middle, we have no width in the very final 3rd.

 

There is no golden rule in football that states a striker combination must dovetail perfectly in order to work, that's bull s***. Its all about the service, form and attacking. Both Ba and Cisse have enough attributes and qualities to get amongst the goals as a pair or even in a forward three, but they need service first and foremost.

 

As things stand with the bull s*** football we 'play' Ba is the better option with Cisse just a waste of a shirt really be it alongside Ba or wide or wherever.

[Ikon]

Who wants him dropped or sold?

[Jack Flash]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

No team has every won a game playing 4-4-2?

 

Krul continually smashing it long is as big a problem as any tactical problem we have. Change that and other things will change. Or just blame Ba for everything?

 

4-4-2 is very much about partnerships isn't? We have a few problems there. The front 2 aren't an effective partnership, the midfield 2 aren't an effective partnership. Bit of width in a 4-4-2 is essential, are we getting crosses in from the left? No, are we getting crosses in from the right? No.

If the above was working, if the players were making it work there would be no debate.

 

Almost any formation or game plan is rendered pointless when long balls are played to players who can't deal with them so that's eliminating our midfield and our strikers in 1 kick.  We could have Xavi and Iniesta in the middle and they wouldn't be effective at all with this "routine".

 

Krul playing it short would solve so many problems. We'd be forced to build from the back which would heavily involve the midfield and then hopefully lead to a chance for our predatory strikers, who are both in the middle and not wasted out on the touchline.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

No team has every won a game playing 4-4-2?

 

Krul continually smashing it long is as big a problem as any tactical problem we have. Change that and other things will change. Or just blame Ba for everything?

 

4-4-2 is very much about partnerships isn't? We have a few problems there. The front 2 aren't an effective partnership, the midfield 2 aren't an effective partnership. Bit of width in a 4-4-2 is essential, are we getting crosses in from the left? No, are we getting crosses in from the right? No.

If the above was working, if the players were making it work there would be no debate.

 

I actually think playing two strikers centrally in the 4-4-2 system doesn't require there to be any kind of 'partnership', not as much is as required in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 for example. Pairing two strikers up top is all about the service from wide and through the middle. Shearer and Sir Les both scored goals and got involved aplenty despite both playing up there in the number 9 position basically and that's because there was enough service for both to get some action if you like. 4-4-2 is such a basic system/formation you could put any two players together up front and both would get amongst the goals if crosses were coming in thick and fast or through balls were being played aplenty. 4-4-2 is in many ways is all about percentages which is why Pardew favours it but we are getting the percentages all wrong. How many crosses? How many through balls?

 

Fire in 20 crosses a game from either flank and your two front men will score or get a chance to score and when the ball breaks loose a midfielder is more than likely to get a goal or a chance to score too.

 

Play a ball behind or through 20 times a game and likewise.

 

We just hoof it and that's about it. Ba has done amazingly well to score as many as he has.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Ba is the only real player in our team doing his job so yeah... lets put him wide or better still drop him or sell him. f***ing crazy!

 

Because he's the only one that suits this style of football and we are playing this way because of him...

 

No one wants him dropped or sold, it's not a coincidence that he's the only attacker that looks comfortable under this system and style of play it's because it's built for HIM and thus restricting everyone else around him.

[Jack Flash]

Ba is the only real player in our team doing his job so yeah... lets put him wide or better still drop him or sell him. f***ing crazy!

 

Because he's the only one that suits this style of football and we are playing this way because of him...

 

No one wants him dropped or sold, it's not a coincidence that he's the only attacker that looks comfortable under this system and style of play it's because it's built for HIM and thus restricting everyone else around him.

 

Ba doesn't suit this style in the slightest He's playing as a target man when he's blatantly not one. Why do you think he drops deep for half the game?

 

merle pls

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ba is the only real player in our team doing his job so yeah... lets put him wide or better still drop him or sell him. f***ing crazy!

 

Because he's the only one that suits this style of football and we are playing this way because of him...

 

No one wants him dropped or sold, it's not a coincidence that he's the only attacker that looks comfortable under this system and style of play it's because it's built for HIM and thus restricting everyone else around him.

 

Absolute bull s***, we do not play this way because of Ba and he does not look comfortable under this style of play in any way shape or form, none of them do. Its actually embarrassing to see him toil away like some kind of f***ing battering ram type forward getting by on scraps or his own individual ability get a goal when we know he is such a good all-round footballer capable of brilliance.

 

We play this way because the manager wants to play this way and for no other reason, as he has demonstrated throughout his career with all of his sides. Ba, Cisse, Shola it doesn't matter who is up top, that ball will go long.

[Fenham Mag]

Who wants him dropped or sold?

 

Me.