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The other games today - 2011/12

Baggio

by Baggio
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Guest je85

Guest je85

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Why the need for Cesc when Thiago is coming through?

 

Sid Lowe wrote some interesting bits on that exact question

 

From http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sid_lowe/06/30/thiago.barcelona/index.html

 

 

...It also posed the inevitable question. Many had already asked why Barcelona pursued Cesc Fabregas with such determination when it has Xavi Hernández, Andrés Iniesta and Sergio Busquets. Now they were asking: what do Barcelona need Cesc for when they have Thiago too? Why spend €40 million ($58M) on a player when you have a better one already there, who costs you nothing? It was even harder to understand why Barcelona might contemplate a sale for Thiago to finance Fabregas, as media reports had suggested.

The answer is simple: Barcelona didn't. Not exactly. Although the temptation to allow him to move -- so long as it was with a buyback option -- was there, Barcelona was more concerned by the talk of offers than encouraged by them.There had even been contact between Thiago's father and Real Madrid.

Instead, quite possibly "encouraged" by that, Barcelona sped up the offer of a contract renewal -- finally announced on Wednesday afternoon. Thiago's contract now runs until 2015 and his buyout clause has risen from €30 million ($43M) to €90 million ($130M).

Barcelona would only have even countenanced Thiago's departure on loan in order to get first division experience or with a buyback option. Although the idea of raising a significant transfer fee for him was seductive to some, the last thing it wanted was a situation like the one it is currently experiencing with Cesc -- in which it has to pay a huge amount of money to bring back a youth-team product and one that perfectly fits the identity and philosophy of the club. What it really wanted was to keep him at the Camp Nou and continue his apprenticeship. As Andoni Zubizarreta, Barcelona's director of sport, put it: "where would we find a player like this?"

Soon, another question was being asked: does this mean Cesc is not signing?Not at all. Renewing Thiago's contract had no bearing on the chase for Cesc.

Barcelona still wants the Arsenal midfielder. The reasoning, from which all else stems, boils down to a simple fact: right now Cesc Fabregas is a priority for Guardiola and right now Thiago is not. In fact, there is a fear that bringing him through and making him a regular immediately might prove counterproductive.

Barcelona has never publicly said it wanted to sell Thiago and Guardiola insisted that he wanted the midfielder to continue. Had he not, there is no doubt that Thiago would have gone. But there were doubts and, with money tight, some of those were quietly expressed -- helping fuel rumors in the media. Things filtered out from both sides, as so often happens during negotiations.

Meanwhile, the doubts were (and are) real; the U-21 coach Luis Milla's comment that Thiago had the talent to perform like Iniesta and Xavi but also needed their "humility" was a hint, while the coaching staff believe that, although he has a talent that sets him apart even from some of his illustrious teammates, he still loses the ball more often than he should.

Caution is urged too: it is not so long ago that Royston Drenthe was the European U-21 Championship's outstanding performer. Thiago needs time to fully grasp the principles of Barcelona's approach. The good news is that the coaching staff believe he will. They know they have a fantastically talented player on their hands.

But time is the key. "Why do Barcelona need Cesc when they have Iniesta and Xavi?" is a legitimate question. But Barcelona are conscious of the fact that last season its squad was short and that a key midfield injury might have derailed them; this season it will have to compete for six competitions. Then there's the generational shift, which needs to be handled well. Xavi Hernández is arguably the finest midfielder Spain has ever produced but he is also 31. He has had Achilles problems, too. Cesc is the man Barcelona see eventually replacing him. With Iniesta. And ultimately, if all goes well with his development, with Thiago. And, however good Thiago is, right now it is legitimate to ask: is he really better than Xavi, Iniesta, or even Cesc?

Marti Perarnau, the author of a wonderful, detailed recent book about the development of players at Barcelona's La Masía youth system, Senda de Campeones, explains the ideas, philosophy, methods and structure better than anyone. For Guardiola, Perarnau points out, it is cyclical. It is also fairly rigid: development follows a series of stages.

A glance at the ages of Barcelona's ball-playing midfielders reveals the pattern: Xavi is 31, Iniesta is 27 and Thiago is 20. 31, 27, 20. That's quite a leap. The missing step in the middle? 23 or 24. Cesc's age? 24. If that means Thiago having to wait a little longer, Guardiola believes, then so much the better. Haste does not necessarily help. Barcelona does not want to be having to fill three places at once: with staggered progress and staggered ages, the transition is -- at least in theory -- smooth; especially with players who have learned at the best pace.

Guardiola would rather Thiago gained some experience of the first team. That he joined the squad and developed slowly, ironing out his flaws bit by bit, returning to the B team periodically, than be thrown straight in. That stage is complete; the next stage is a cautious entry into the first team. Last season, for example, Thiago played 12 times in the league but started just six of those. He also played 11 times for Barcelona B. Now, contract renewed in the spring and again yesterday, he will officially form part of the first team squad, closing the doors to Barcelona B.

The problem is that while Guardiola preaches patience, Thiago naturally wants to play. His father, a famous player himself and a vocal presence, wants him to be playing too. That desire to take the next step also acted as leverage during negotiations. For Thiago and Mazinho six starts in 2010-2011 did not seem much; for Guardiola, it seemed right. He did not appreciate being hurried. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the two sides are working to different timetables and a certain degree of friction may still be inevitable, despite the satisfaction at the signing of this new deal.

Guardiola's desire to work cyclically may be too rigid, certainly for a player as talented as Thiago. It could be that it is only minutes that Thiago needs and that the sooner he gets in the team, the sooner he is playing regularly at its heart, the better. It could be that it proves better to give him the chance than to pay for Cesc. After all, Leo Messi only just turned 24 and has arguably been the best player in the world for three years or more; despite injuries, being thrown in early might have been good for him. Messi's wonderful display, as a surprise starter, against Real Madrid back in 2006 was a bold move from Frank Rijkaard that appears to have paid off handsomely.

It is certainly true that by signing Cesc, Barcelona would theoretically limit Thiago's opportunities -- it might even arrest his development, hence the temptation to seek those opportunities elsewhere. Thiago was recently forced to apologize after announcing that his dream was not necessarily to play soccer for Barcelona; it was simply to play soccer. Time may be on his side, but it is not always easy to see that. And because it is not easy to see, it is not easy to implement. Now with the threat of a departure out the way, it will be interesting to see how fast Thiago progresses and how fast he is allowed to progress. Will an exception be made? And if not, how will he react? Most importantly, it will be interesting to see how well he progresses. If there is speed, will it become haste or necessary urgency?

For Guardiola, there is living proof that he should not rush. Giovanni Dos Santos has had unremarkable spells at Spurs and Ipswich and last season played for Racing Santander. He was a Barcelona player until he departed unmissed and unappreciated, unable to meet expectations. That seems like an age ago, like people long since gave up on him, and yet he has only just turned 21 and he is just showing glimpses that he might be a great player after all. He made his debt at 17 and immediately carried the weight of hype and hopes, not least his own. Had he stayed and developed at a slower pace, learning at the Camp Nou rather than elsewhere, who knows, he might still be a Barcelona player -- and a useful one, too.

But it is Thiago's U-21 team mate Bojan Krikic that provides the clearest example. Bojan became the youngest league goal scorer in Barcelona's history when he scored against Villarreal in October 2007. He was 17 years and 51 days. Four years later, the rather unkind, arguably unjust sensation is that he has failed; that he is a lost talent, a missed opportunity. At 20, a year less than Thiago, he could be just coming through at Barcelona, completing his apprenticeship, the kid everyone is talking about for the coming season. Instead, he's leaving the Camp Nou, bound for Rome.

Thiago is not; Thiago is staying put. For Pep Guardiola that's good news.Not because Thiago will be able to play a key part this season, but that he will be able to play a key part next season and the season after and the season after that

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Neil

Neil

Posted
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Why the need for Cesc when Thiago is coming through?

 

What we want from Cesc is not what we want from Thiago. Thiago really isn't cut for the Xavi role, he is more a #10 than a playmaker.

 

I don't see Fabregas being cut out for the Xavi role either.

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Village Idiot

Village Idiot

Posted
Posted

Why the need for Cesc when Thiago is coming through?

 

What we want from Cesc is not what we want from Thiago. Thiago really isn't cut for the Xavi role, he is more a #10 than a playmaker.

 

I don't see Fabregas being cut out for the Xavi role either.

 

Guardiola thinks he is (and has thought so since long), so that's the plan at least.

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Flip

Flip

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Craziest supercup match Ive ever seen. Marseille pull one back to then concede a inute later to 3-1. Now in the last 7-8 minutes theyve turned it around to 4-3.

 

Lille without Cabaye aint shit :lol:

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Flip

Flip

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Hahaha and Lille equalizes in the 92nd. This is fucking incredible.

 

2-1 71'

3-1 72'

3-2 85'

3-3 88'

3-4 89'

4-4 92'

 

hahaha and now penalty kick to Marseille in the 95'

 

This is the most incredible match I've ever seen.

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Flip

Flip

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Hahaha and Lille equalizes in the 92nd. This is f***ing incredible.

 

2-1 71'

3-1 72'

3-2 85'

3-3 88'

3-4 89'

4-4 92'

 

hahaha and now penalty kick to Marseille in the 95'

 

This is the most incredible match I've ever seen.

 

5-4 Marseille. Sickest match ever.

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Flip

Flip

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Hahaha and Lille equalizes in the 92nd. This is f***ing incredible.

 

2-1 71'

3-1 72'

3-2 85'

3-3 88'

3-4 89'

4-4 92'

 

hahaha and now penalty kick to Marseille in the 95'

 

This is the most incredible match I've ever seen.

 

5-4 Marseille. Sickest match ever.

 

Marseille won it.

 

It's just one of the most epic matches I've ever seen.

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Flip

Flip

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Santos up 3-2 against Flamengo. Neymar scored a crazy beautiful goal and had a lucky overheadkick assist. Prior to the overhead kick Ganso had a beautiful through ball to Neymar.

 

Flamengo was down 3-0 but Ronaldinho and Thiago Neves has scored. Deivid missed alone without goalkeeper and everything, terrible miss as he stepped on the ball and hit it out with his shin.

 

And now Ganso almost scored.

 

Neymar got a weak penalty in his favour and Elano tried to chip it down the middle. What an idiot! And now Flamengo equalizes 3-3.

 

2nd match of the day and seen 15 goals already and still a whole half to go.

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Flip

Flip

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Santos up 3-2 against Flamengo. Neymar scored a crazy beautiful goal and had a lucky overheadkick assist. Prior to the overhead kick Ganso had a beautiful through ball to Neymar.

 

Flamengo was down 3-0 but Ronaldinho and Thiago Neves has scored. Deivid missed alone without goalkeeper and everything, terrible miss as he stepped on the ball and hit it out with his shin.

 

And now Ganso almost scored.

 

Neymar got a weak penalty in his favour and Elano tried to chip it down the middle. What an idiot! And now Flamengo equalizes 3-3.

 

2nd match of the day and seen 15 goals already and still a whole half to go.

 

Neymar makes it 4-3 with a very cool finish over the goalkeeper. Getting more impressed for every game I watch him, has all the talent in the world.

 

Ronaldinho makes it 4-4 with a clever free-kick under a jumping wall. And then makes it 5-4 after Ganso loses the ball stupidly in the middle of the park.

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