ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Completely daft using a 7 game tournament inwhich players are thrown together and asked to work it out 'on the night' as a yardstick to a player's greatness. May as well use the Nike cage. That's one hilariously exaggerated characterisation of the World Cup you've just concocted to suit your argument Exaggeration or not, it's true. I've never understood why such a small sample is the ultimate litmus test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It's only the most significant sporting event in all of human civilization, of course it's an important part of judging a player's legacy. Big players rise for big occasions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Completely daft using a 7 game tournament inwhich players are thrown together and asked to work it out 'on the night' as a yardstick to a player's greatness. May as well use the Nike cage. That's one hilariously exaggerated characterisation of the World Cup you've just concocted to suit your argument Exaggeration or not, it's true. I've never understood why such a small sample is the ultimate litmus test. It's not the whole litmus test, otherwise we'd be talking about Miroslav Klose too. If we're spanning across decades, different dietary and training regimes, different rules, different fucking footballs and different leagues and levels of competition, then yeah... important tournaments do, oddly enough, have a bearing when splitting out people at the very top of the tree. It's one part of a very large test, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or dismiss it as a 7-game kickabout or not. [/iMO] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 no it isn't, it's often lopsided teams with some great players and some cack. i can't remember the last time i saw a truly balanced national team in the way the milan team of guillit was or the barce team of 2 year ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 France at Euro 2000? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 no it isn't, it's often lopsided teams with some great players and some cack. i can't remember the last time i saw a truly balanced national team in the way the milan team of guillit was or the barce team of 2 year ago. Exactly - which results in disjointed football and players struggling to maximise their ability. The last World Cup was largely rubbish with most of the big name players underperforming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. I don't agree. The biggest stage on club football absolutely pales in historical significance compared to the World Cup. The only reason we're even having this conversation at all is because we're hardcore football junkies. The general public doesn't give a shit about the Champions League, and small sample size as it might be, the World Cup is undeniably a key factor in determining a player's legacy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 France at Euro 2000? one of the better ones, granted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That was more like 2nd v bottom than 2nd v 3rd. Valencia are lucky everyone behind them is fucked financially too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. I don't agree. The biggest stage on club football absolutely pales in historical significance compared to the World Cup. The only reason we're even having this conversation at all is because we're hardcore football junkies. The general public doesn't give a shit about the Champions League, and small sample size as it might be, the World Cup is undeniably a key factor in determining a player's legacy. Then the general public is in no position to be judging the greatest players of all time. Fuck the general public. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. I don't agree. The biggest stage on club football absolutely pales in historical significance compared to the World Cup. The only reason we're even having this conversation at all is because we're hardcore football junkies. The general public doesn't give a shit about the Champions League, and small sample size as it might be, the World Cup is undeniably a key factor in determining a player's legacy. Then the general public is in no position to be judging the greatest players of all time. Fuck the general public. I like to think that the truly "great" players (the word itself is quite overused) have a historical and cultural significance that goes far beyond just football fans. Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Pele, that's the kind of iconic status I'm talking about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That was more like 2nd v bottom than 2nd v 3rd. Valencia are lucky everyone behind them is f***ed financially too. like us v spurs ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. I don't agree. The biggest stage on club football absolutely pales in historical significance compared to the World Cup. The only reason we're even having this conversation at all is because we're hardcore football junkies. The general public doesn't give a shit about the Champions League, and small sample size as it might be, the World Cup is undeniably a key factor in determining a player's legacy. Then the general public is in no position to be judging the greatest players of all time. Fuck the general public. I like to think that the truly "great" players (the word itself is quite overused) have a historical and cultural significance that goes far beyond just football fans. Pele stopped a civil war ffs. Maradona also kept the entire economy of Bolivia and Colombia afloat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 no it isn't, it's often lopsided teams with some great players and some cack. i can't remember the last time i saw a truly balanced national team in the way the milan team of guillit was or the barce team of 2 year ago. Exactly - which results in disjointed football and players struggling to maximise their ability. The last World Cup was largely rubbish with most of the big name players underperforming. You seem to be emphasising my point - we're not talking about top players of this generation. We're talking about the greatest of all time. Pele, Maradona, more recently Ronaldo. To be able to dominate/shine under such conditions is one part of the step into the category of Greatest Ever. It's underpinned by many other things obviously (and don't think I don't appreciate just how wide-ranging they are), but those are the margins we're talking about IMO. I feel this getting a little cyclical so I'll leave it there, anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. I don't agree. The biggest stage on club football absolutely pales in historical significance compared to the World Cup. The only reason we're even having this conversation at all is because we're hardcore football junkies. The general public doesn't give a shit about the Champions League, and small sample size as it might be, the World Cup is undeniably a key factor in determining a player's legacy. Then the general public is in no position to be judging the greatest players of all time. Fuck the general public. I like to think that the truly "great" players (the word itself is quite overused) have a historical and cultural significance that goes far beyond just football fans. Pele stopped a civil war ffs. Maradona also kept the entire economy of Bolivia and Colombia afloat. Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Gaining influence that goes far beyond the pitch through your skills and achievements. Ryan Giggs is a great player and probably has the most illustrious club career ever, but he's not going to be remembered for very long by people who don't follow football religiously. In about three decades he'll probably be a footnote for most people who aren't Manchester United fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Club football is a higher standard than international football and presents a much larger and definitive sample to a player's ability, especially today with the Champions League and all the best players being centralised in European competitions. Fact is World Cup today is players thrown together, often mismanaged in many ways and playing disjointed football because they've been playing for their clubs all year round. Expecting the cream to rise to the surface in that scenario is wishful thinking and using it as the main yardstick to judge players on is just daft. The WC is a great event that I look forward to every time but it's a month long shoot out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Club football is a higher standard than international football and presents a much larger and definitive sample to a player's ability, especially today with the Champions League and all the best players being centralised in European competitions. Fact is World Cup today is players thrown together, often mismanaged in many ways and playing disjointed football because they've been playing for their clubs all year round. Expecting the cream to rise to the surface in that scenario is wishful thinking and using it as the main yardstick to judge players on is just daft. The WC is a great event that I look forward to every time but it's a month long shoot out. If your standard of "great player" is based solely on demonstrating a high level of technical skill for a statistically significant period then I suppose that's fair. For me it's more about the player's legacy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Historical and cultural significance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Historical and cultural significance It matters man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That was more like 2nd v bottom than 2nd v 3rd. Valencia are lucky everyone behind them is f***ed financially too. like us v spurs ? No because we're 6th and overachieving. Valencia have been the definitive 3rd best team in Spain for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Messi's legacy at club level already far outstrips Maradona's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Messi's legacy at club level already far outstrips Maradona's. So does Ryan Giggs', but he's not the one who's going to be remembered for far beyond both our lifetimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Important part or not, it's still put on too much of a pedastal - especially today. Club football should take signicant presidence over it. I don't agree. The biggest stage on club football absolutely pales in historical significance compared to the World Cup. The only reason we're even having this conversation at all is because we're hardcore football junkies. The general public doesn't give a s*** about the Champions League, and small sample size as it might be, the World Cup is undeniably a key factor in determining a player's legacy. Then the general public is in no position to be judging the greatest players of all time. f*** the general public. I like to think that the truly "great" players (the word itself is quite overused) have a historical and cultural significance that goes far beyond just football fans. Pele stopped a civil war ffs. Maradona also kept the entire economy of Bolivia and Colombia afloat. Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Gaining influence that goes far beyond the pitch through your skills and achievements. Ryan Giggs is a great player and probably has the most illustrious club career ever, but he's not going to be remembered for very long by people who don't follow football religiously. In about three decades he'll probably be a footnote for most people who aren't Manchester United fans. Maldini? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Giggs has never been anywhere near as good as Messi or Maradona though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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