Guest firetotheworks Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 What are you on about man? Well, no surprise you haven't a clue what the subjects are about. I do, you've been shown to be wrong and you're just going for the petty angle. I have no interest in personal stuff. I just completely disagree with your views. You think we should be mocking Sunderland for having a fascist manager. I'm saying that that's an oxymoron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 'cause if so he's technically correct Correct, and what a can of worms that opens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenBartonCentrePartin Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 bit of a side note here but did anyone here do History at the Poly? If so, did you do Avram Taylor's module on Italian Fascism? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 'cause if so he's technically correct I imagine it would be possible to be a fascist without being a racist. Certainly wouldn't be easy though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 By deeply divided I don't mean they're internally conflicted, I mean that half of them think he's a legend and half of them think he's a Nazi c***. But thats just fans views on ALL players isn't it ? Remember some of the attitudes to Shearer in his last couple of seasons on N/cle forums ? Some were furious that others adopted a "What have you done for me lately" approach to him - some even slagged him off when we went down, forgetting what he'd done for years. DiCanio at Sunderland has already roused more interest in an already white hot game against them up here.... The difference being that those people were mildly upset over Shearer's hand rarely used for celebrating a goal in a sport and this is about people being upset over Di Canio's hand being used as 'sieg heil' Colossal difference. I thought the salute pre dated the Nazi's though......an Italian facist thing. Maybe so, but it's the whole connotation thing again, I think. The evolution of meaning and interpretation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 'cause if so he's technically correct I imagine it would be possible to be a fascist without being a racist. Certainly wouldn't be easy though. the origins of fascism were not based on race whatsoever Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesPaul Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Putting a statement out about his politic beliefs etc today apparently. Doesn't he have Il Duce tat on his back? Il Deuce. Is it not Dux? Which is Latin for The Leader (no definite article in Latin so the "the" is implied as Dux is nominative). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Woo this has took a turn into my complete ignorance. I'll get my coat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it. what does? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Im not in your petty little argument...dont drag me into it. I was just f***ing about. Absolutely it's petty. Which is the point Ive been TRYING to make And you dragged yourself into it ! I made a cheeky quip and you bit. Well, I see it the other way actually. But never mind. No big deal. You took it the wrong way. You have jumped on your high horse and began lecturing other people. Lecturing ? Hardly. And what happened to "Not getting involved with...blah blah blah" ? I said I couldn't understand the OTT response, and said we should take the p*ss, not get on high horses over his political views You're not Icarus agreeing with himself are you ? (a common thing on some forums !!!) ;D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Putting a statement out about his politic beliefs etc today apparently. Doesn't he have Il Duce tat on his back? Il Deuce. Is it not Dux? Which is Latin for The Leader (no definite article in Latin so the "the" is implied as Dux is nominative). I was joking about our Deuce tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesPaul Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Putting a statement out about his politic beliefs etc today apparently. Doesn't he have Il Duce tat on his back? Il Deuce. Is it not Dux? Which is Latin for The Leader (no definite article in Latin so the "the" is implied as Dux is nominative). I was joking about our Deuce tbh. missed that but that tat is the Latin not the Italian iirc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it. what does? If you equate fascism with racism. Of course there are lots of aspects of fascism that have nothing to do with race which people take issue with anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godot Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Don't worry lads, their class remains intact despite this: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=770673 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 'cause if so he's technically correct I imagine it would be possible to be a fascist without being a racist. Certainly wouldn't be easy though. the origins of fascism were not based on race whatsoever Let's say we are to define fascism as a political ideology glorifying and concentrating power into the state and its authority figures. To mobilize people to accept that sort of model en masse is generally impossible without aggressive nationalism. It's very difficult to have people buy into that sort of aggressive nationalism without notions of racial supremacy, or at the very least a strong dose of xenophobia. Therefore, while racism might be an integral part of fascism, it's usually part of the model as a means to an end and it's pretty hard to separate the two completely. Of course, we're talking about political ideology on an individual level here and not recipes for regime formation. In that case, I'm assuming you'd be skipping line one and going straight to line two, which makes it even harder to divorce fascism from racism on an individual level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it. True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here. Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word." Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 'cause if so he's technically correct I imagine it would be possible to be a fascist without being a racist. Certainly wouldn't be easy though. the origins of fascism were not based on race whatsoever Let's say we are to define fascism as a political ideology glorifying and concentrating power into the state and its authority figures. To mobilize people to accept that sort of model en masse is generally impossible without aggressive nationalism. It's very difficult to have people buy into that sort of aggressive nationalism without notions of racial supremacy, or at the very least a strong dose of xenophobia. Therefore, while racism might be an integral part of fascism, it's usually part of the model as a means to an end and it's pretty hard to separate the two completely. agreed, that's why i said technically correct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It's xenophobia more than racism isn't it? When the Facsist ideal is about an insular state, then it probably just becomes semantics really. Countries, races, sex and so on. No wrong making a right and everything. Reminds me of that sketch on Jam 'No, I wasn't cheating on you, I was only bloody raping her!' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I'm with PhilK on this one tbh. I don't think he's belittling the history of fascism or condoning Di Canio's views. For all I care he's an attention whore (Di Canio that is), and gave the salute to Lazio fans because he played for them. A lot of people declare themselves one thing or another when in the spotlight to generate PR. The "confession" could well just have been a stupid way to save face (better of two evils so to speak). What matters to me is that he's the mackem pied piper now and I want him to fail purely on that basis alone. Having said that, as long as we get 3 pts against them I don't care if they stay up or go down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It's xenophobia more than racism isn't it? When the Facsist ideal is about an insular state, then it probably just becomes semantics really. Countries, races, sex and so on. No wrong making a right and everything. Reminds me of that sketch on Jam 'No, I wasn't cheating on you, I was only bloody raping her!' Well, how do you justify shutting your country up from other countries and peoples though? It's generally not easy without some sort of idea of racial purity/superiority. It's even more difficult to imagine how on an individual level you could be ideologically "fascist" without being racist. Does Di Canio just somebody who thinks 'This has nothing to do with any other country, but our government is so awesome, so fuck our individual rights and lets give it undisputed authority?' That's probably even more screwed up than Racism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I'm with PhilK on this one tbh. I don't think he's belittling the history of fascism or condoning Di Canio's views. For all I care he's an attention whore (Di Canio that is), and gave the salute to Lazio fans because he played for them. A lot of people declare themselves one thing or another when in the spotlight to generate PR. The "confession" could well just have been a stupid way to save face (better of two evils so to speak). What matters to me is that he's the mackem pied piper now and I want him to fail purely on that basis alone. Having said that, as long as we get 3 pts against them I don't care if they stay up or go down. THANK YOU FINALLY someone who can see the WORDS and actually see the meaning by the words instead of what they WANT them to mean. Like a certain couple of types who I am beginning to think are one and the same ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Bailey Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it. True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here. Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word." Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left Ignorance.Pure ignorance. NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it. True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here. Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word." Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left Okay, so you mean Totalitarianism. I took you to mean Fascism in the way that history and the primary meaning of the word has me interpreting it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 He was doing a Nazi salute - what kind of fascism do people think he's referring to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts