Alan Pardew

[merlin]

Pace of our passing is uncomparable , Bobby's team not only had pacey players but he instructed them to play at a much higher tempo.

Pardew's team passes the ball weak and too often gets crowded out when under pressure.

 

Agreed - under both KK and SBR we had a far faster tempo of play...I remember the season we got promoted and the game against Luton at SJP in early Sept ; it was perhaps the first time we REALLY got the pass and move style going at speed and they couldn't live with us, even though we only won 2-0. After that, it all started to gel and some of those games in that season were awesome...beating Barnsley 6-0 in March 93, Brentford 5-1 in the same month(when Rob Lee had a goal from the half-way line ruled out) and of course, Leicester 7-1 at our finale at SJP when we were presented with the Trophy.

We carried this form and style into the PL the following year and in subsequent years we hammered quite a number of decent sides including a 7-1 thrashing of Spurs just before KK resigned.

 

Pardew's team is far too slow in  breaking from defence and the players tend to bunch too tightly together to be effective - the whole squad needs to do more pass and move training instead of concentrating on defence. I saw that someone was quoting BBC stats that claimed we only had 2% less possession than Spurs on Saturday...that proves nothing because passing the ball backwards and sideways between the defence, m/f and keeper is still possession but it doesn't even begin to worry the opposition.....

[merlin]

This might be a bit contentious, but when I look at the players we have in this squad, aside from being thin up front, I don't remember us ever having anything like the depth and quality we have now throughout the Premiership era, even under Sir Bobby or Keegan. To list what we currently have:

 

One of the best keepers in the league.

Three decent-to-good Premiership centrebacks, two of whom are internationals for the bigger footballing nations.

Two very decent attacking fullbacks.

A ridiculous amount of quality in midfield (Cabaye, Tiote, Sissoko, Marveaux, Anita, and squad players like Bigirimana, Jonas, Perch, Obertan).

One of the most gifted players this club has had in Ben Arfa, up there with Beardo and Gazza.

Two good strikers in Cisse and Gouffran.

 

In all honesty, I reckon we're one world class striker away from having a better squad than both Keegan and Sir Bobby's teams - Colo alone is better than any of the defenders we had under Keegan whilst we had s*** defenders in Sir Bobby's peak side (prior to Woodgate's arrival, and even then he was a crock so that doesn't change things), I'd argue Cabaye is on a par, if not better than, Rob Lee, and definitely better than Speed, Ben Arfa is comfortably better than Ginola and Robert, Sissoko and Tiote have no equivalents in both teams, and beyond the first eleven we just have much more depth (in all honesty, Perch > Stevie Watson as a utility player). The only area, again, where both Keegan and Sir Bobby had it better was up front (Beardo + Cole/Ferdinand/Shearer, Bellamy + Shearer).

 

Even if anyone wants to disagree and point to players who were good and not bettered in this squad (Gillespie and Dyer at the peak of their powers maybe), can it really be argued that it isn't very close between the 3 squads? Putting performances aside of course. 

 

Point being that whilst it's fair enough that this squad has only been "completed" a few weeks ago, if between now and the end of the season we don't start to see a gradual improvement on our teamplay, passing, movement, the types of chances created, the lesser players phased out and a system found that works (and incorporate as many of our best players as possible), and more importantly, at least half a a couple of games where we absolutely dominate a team from start to finish (not just thrash them in terms of a scoreline where we finish off a bunch of scrappy chances whilst they miss their changes, but rather we rape them in terms of possession + pegging them back in their own half + good chances creativited), if we don't improvement in those areas then I want Pardew gone, as the guy will only be wasting what on paper is a squad I'm sure most managers outside of the CL clubs would dream of having.

 

I'm convinced you weren't around for Keegan's side after reading that. Cabaye doesn't come close to how effective Rob Lee was for Keegan, nor does Ben Arfa match Robert's effectiveness for Bobby. And Perch better than Steve Watson as a utility man? I admire the optimism but do me a favour. Revisionist tripe.

 

My thoughts exactly...

[Cajun]

What about playing turgid football like we have this season and battling relegation?

 

 

 

Pardew now needs to get us performing well until the end of the season then I would be happy for him to prove himself next.

 

[Flip]

Agree with the Martinez is overrated comments.

 

As others have said he has been in this league long enough and has had similar resource to others who have managed to do a lot better than his usual just missing relegation every season.

 

I think he will be one of those managers who looks good with a team expected to struggle but if he moved to a better resourced side would be shown up. He probably realises this himself which is why he has turned down offers from bigger clubs.

 

Pardew now needs to get us performing well until the end of the season then I would be happy for him to prove himself next. If he can't then we will have to start looking elsewhere. I would rather play efficient football like last season and have something good to play for (CL) than play 'nice' football and battle to stay up every season though.

 

I do agree to a certain extent that Martinez is overrated, but not because of the reasons you suggested. Martinez while having some resources has not had the stability to build a foundation of a club. He is trying to implement a type of football which he has proven to have become a successful doing at Swansea.

 

Martinez came into the club having sold Valencia and Cattermole who were integral parts of the Steve Bruce team that finished midtable during his season. He brought in Moses, McCarthy, and Diame all young players at the time and all who have gone on to become good players. He obviously spent quite a lot on couple of players, but a club like Wigan cannot attract the best and he has to try and implement his style of football by buying pretty average players at a higher sum to convince them to join his club.

 

It's not easy to build a team when you every season have to sell your best performer. You then have to go and spend to try and make your team better which isn't always easy. We sold Carroll but got lucky to sign Ba, is that because Pardew is a great manager? Or is it because Carr is a good scout? Or was it because West Ham were dumb enough to give him that contract which let him go for free and we were willing to pay his agents an amazing fee?

 

In other words, I'm somewhere in the middle between this Martinez yes or no question. I just don't find calling him overrated based on evidence of his time at Wigan or the squad he has built good enough. If you don't have a good organizational structure at the club and a great city and fans to support it you will never be the best. Keeping Wigan as a PL team for three seasons now has been a very good achievement. If he would succeed at our club I don't know. What I do know though, is that his team plays one of the more fun styles of football in the league and that is with players such as Caldwell, Beausejour (which he signed after a very good World Cup but has been unable to settle) etc.

 

He is setting a foundation at Wigan, but Wigan as a club can have Mourinho as a manager or Sir Alex for all I care. They will never establish as a top half team in the league. It's hard enough for a club like Newcastle who can attract a lot of good players.

[Cajun]

Since Pardew has been here we have lost;

 

Carroll - Our number 9 at the time and main goalscorer, leaving us with an unfancied Best.

Nolan - Captain and responsible for a lot of our goals.

Barton - After his best season at the club by a long way.

Enrique - One of the best left backs we have ever had.

Best - A very capable back up striker who despite being unfancied did fantastically to fill in for Carroll.

Guthrie - Squad player on the whole but the season he left he played a key role and some were even suggesting he was playing better than Cabaye.

Ba - The most prolific striker we have had since Shearer.

 

That's a lot of key players to leave, okay Pardew is lucky to have Carr here to make sure they are replaced but that is still quite a large turn over of many key players in a short space of time.

 

You mention how attractive Wigan are but as others have mentioned there are teams around their level in this league who have performed much better. They have spent around £9.5m per season on transfers too which isn't the lowest spend either.

[Tooj]

Who around Wigan's level have performed much better as you describe?

 

Also where did you get their net spend figures from?

 

Plus as we are testament, the amount you spend isn't necessarily relative to the quality of player you buy.

[Flip]

The key issue there is we have replaced them with far more talented players and we have the ability to attract better players. Also you have to take wages into consideration. There is no way Wigan can throw about the same salaries as we can.

 

Also until a week ago we were behind Wigan, but like I said I think he is trying to implement a style of football that just doesn't work, but which will set a foundation for the club in the future if the next hiring sees the way he does. He never promoted Swansea, but he is still credited for the way they play. I think he's done a very good job at Wigan, if he's good enough to take a team like us to the next level I'll leave unsaid. I just find peoples opinion of him respectable for what he has achieved at Wigan.

[Cajun]

The likes of West Brom, Fulham, Swansea.

 

Their net spend is 16th in the league. I was talking about how much they spent. It's unfair to compare net spend when you are talking about the likes of Reading, Swansea, Norwich etc.. because with Wigan being in this league a lot longer than those clubs will have likely had players go for bigger sums (Valencia, Palacious, Moses etc..).

 

Part of the argument for Martinez is his lack of resources so is it not fair to mention how much he has actually spent?

[Flip]

The likes of West Brom, Fulham, Swansea.

 

Their net spend is 16th in the league. I was talking about how much they spent. It's unfair to compare net spend when you are talking about the likes of Reading, Swansea, Norwich etc.. because with Wigan being in this league a lot longer than those clubs will have likely had players go for bigger sums (Valencia, Palacious, Moses etc..).

 

Part of the argument for Martinez is his lack of resources so is it not fair to mention how much he has actually spent?

 

I never said a lack resources, I said a lack of attractiveness. As for Swansea he made them what they are, as for Reading they have spent pretty good lately and for Norwich they have had a good run of games which saw them climb the table, but there's no doubt in my mind that they'll be finishing around the bottom of the table along with the likes of Wigan, Reading, QPR and so on.

 

 

[merlin]

Since Pardew has been here we have lost;

 

Carroll - Our number 9 at the time and main goalscorer, leaving us with an unfancied Best.

Nolan - Captain and responsible for a lot of our goals.

Barton - After his best season at the club by a long way.

Enrique - One of the best left backs we have ever had.

Best - A very capable back up striker who despite being unfancied did fantastically to fill in for Carroll.

Guthrie - Squad player on the whole but the season he left he played a key role and some were even suggesting he was playing better than Cabaye.

Ba - The most prolific striker we have had since Shearer.

 

That's a lot of key players to leave, okay Pardew is lucky to have Carr here to make sure they are replaced but that is still quite a large turn over of many key players in a short space of time.

 

You mention how attractive Wigan are but as others have mentioned there are teams around their level in this league who have performed much better. They have spent around £9.5m per season on transfers too which isn't the lowest spend either.

 

Carroll - we were offered a ridiculous fee and rightly accepted it ...look at the replacements.

Nolan - did a good job but had too much influence over Hughton and dressing room..reputedly.

Past his best .

Barton - had a good season but was often involved in controversy. We could, and did, do better.

Best - the lad was the biggest loss of all in my view but he was never going to be first choice.. a bit like David Kelly when we got promoted, and I was a big Kelly fan but could see why he went..

Guthrie - only missed because we didn't strengthen enough after his departure.Not a 90 min player..

Enrique - thought the club was going in the wrong direction and refused another contract - his choice.

Ba - did a good job for us but was never going to stay...same as at W.Ham.

 

Pardew has had these players - with the exception of Ba  - replaced by far better players ; Sissoko, Gouffran, Yanga-Mbiwa, Anita and Haidara(jury still out but young and with potential)....Martinez has NO chance of having replacements fo his players who meet these standards so Pardew has less excuse for producing a decent side...

[Mole_Toonfan]

“You’d like to think with him(Gouffran) on one side, Ben Arfa on the other side and Sissoko and Cissé – blimey, that’s mouthwatering for us,” he said.

 

Seems to imply when Ben Arfa comes back that Jonas will be dropped 

 

[Tooj]

The likes of West Brom, Fulham, Swansea.

 

Their net spend is 16th in the league. I was talking about how much they spent. It's unfair to compare net spend when you are talking about the likes of Reading, Swansea, Norwich etc.. because with Wigan being in this league a lot longer than those clubs will have likely had players go for bigger sums (Valencia, Palacious, Moses etc..).

 

Part of the argument for Martinez is his lack of resources so is it not fair to mention how much he has actually spent?

Of course it's not unfair to compare net spend. As without player sales then Martinez wouldn't be able to spend that money.

 

Fulham aren't doing that well this season yet easily have more resources available to them and can attract a higher calibre of player to them than Wigan.

 

West Brom also have more resources available to them than Wigan and have quite a bit of history behind them too.

 

Martinez started off everything at Swansea and in Michael Laurup they have one of the league's best managers. Plus due to his reputation in Spain he was able to attract the likes of Michu, De Guzman and Pablo Hernandez.

[Cajun]

The likes of West Brom, Fulham, Swansea.

 

Their net spend is 16th in the league. I was talking about how much they spent. It's unfair to compare net spend when you are talking about the likes of Reading, Swansea, Norwich etc.. because with Wigan being in this league a lot longer than those clubs will have likely had players go for bigger sums (Valencia, Palacious, Moses etc..).

 

Part of the argument for Martinez is his lack of resources so is it not fair to mention how much he has actually spent?

Of course it's not unfair to compare net spend. As without player sales then Martinez wouldn't be able to spend that money.

 

Fulham aren't doing that well this season yet easily have more resources available to them and can attract a higher calibre of player to them than Wigan.

 

West Brom also have more resources available to them than Wigan and have quite a bit of history behind them too.

 

Martinez started off everything at Swansea and in Michael Laurup they have one of the league's best managers. Plus due to his reputation in Spain he was able to attract the likes of Michu, De Guzman and Pablo Hernandez.

 

But he has had a head start on those clubs by being in the Premier League so being able to attract that quality of player in the first place? Also weren't these players bought by Bruce?

 

He seems to be getting a lot of credit what others have done too

[Flip]

No they were brought in by Martinez (at least Diame, McCarthy, McArthur, Moses, Di Santo) were.

[mozy]

I don't think Martinez is particularly good in the transfer market, signed a few poor players, Boselli comes to mind as an example.

[Tooj]

The likes of West Brom, Fulham, Swansea.

 

Their net spend is 16th in the league. I was talking about how much they spent. It's unfair to compare net spend when you are talking about the likes of Reading, Swansea, Norwich etc.. because with Wigan being in this league a lot longer than those clubs will have likely had players go for bigger sums (Valencia, Palacious, Moses etc..).

 

Part of the argument for Martinez is his lack of resources so is it not fair to mention how much he has actually spent?

Of course it's not unfair to compare net spend. As without player sales then Martinez wouldn't be able to spend that money.

 

Fulham aren't doing that well this season yet easily have more resources available to them and can attract a higher calibre of player to them than Wigan.

 

West Brom also have more resources available to them than Wigan and have quite a bit of history behind them too.

 

Martinez started off everything at Swansea and in Michael Laurup they have one of the league's best managers. Plus due to his reputation in Spain he was able to attract the likes of Michu, De Guzman and Pablo Hernandez.

 

But he has had a head start on those clubs by being in the Premier League so being able to attract that quality of player in the first place? Also weren't these players bought by Bruce?

 

He seems to be getting a lot of credit what others have done too

 

I think you're making too much of this head start than others tbh.

 

Look at some of the players signed by Southampton this summer. It doesn't generally mean a thing.

[The College Dropout]

Think our squad is over-rated.

[Guest tollemache]

Pace of our passing is uncomparable , Bobby's team not only had pacey players but he instructed them to play at a much higher tempo.

Pardew's team passes the ball weak and too often gets crowded out when under pressure.

 

Agreed - under both KK and SBR we had a far faster tempo of play...I remember the season we got promoted and the game against Luton at SJP in early Sept ; it was perhaps the first time we REALLY got the pass and move style going at speed and they couldn't live with us, even though we only won 2-0. After that, it all started to gel and some of those games in that season were awesome...beating Barnsley 6-0 in March 93, Brentford 5-1 in the same month(when Rob Lee had a goal from the half-way line ruled out) and of course, Leicester 7-1 at our finale at SJP when we were presented with the Trophy.

We carried this form and style into the PL the following year and in subsequent years we hammered quite a number of decent sides including a 7-1 thrashing of Spurs just before KK resigned.

 

Pardew's team is far too slow in  breaking from defence and the players tend to bunch too tightly together to be effective - the whole squad needs to do more pass and move training instead of concentrating on defence. I saw that someone was quoting BBC stats that claimed we only had 2% less possession than Spurs on Saturday...that proves nothing because passing the ball backwards and sideways between the defence, m/f and keeper is still possession but it doesn't even begin to worry the opposition.....

 

Weird, I kind of thought the opposite at times...

 

In fairness I was really impressed with Spurs' closing down. They make it bloody hard to build up and will smother better teams than us. My main gripe about our movement of the ball on Saturday was that we were too easily discouraged by a dead end. We'd win the ball, fail to find a good option going forward and within 3 passes we'd either lose it by trying to force the issue or pass it back to Krul to be pumped towards Sissoko. On a fair few occasions I found myself wishing we'd just slowed it down for a second, made them drop off a bit, and looked for a way to give Cabaye or Sissoko a little more time on the ball. But we'd tend to make two passes under pressure, not shift it far enough or sharply enough to get away from their pressing, and be forced into a hopeful ball forward.

 

As I say though, with the pressure Spurs put on the ball there is no shame in finding it hard to get a foothold

[Cajun]

Which shows he can attract decent players. The real money makers were brought in by Bruce though.

 

At the end of the day he took over a side that finished 14th then 11th and got them to 16th, 16th, 15th and they are currently 19th.

 

He has made absolutely zero progress in that time, in fact they have gone backwards, he plays nice football but he doesn't seem to have it in him to kick them on. As said earlier, I think he is at the perfect club for him. Absolutely no desire to do anything more than stay up which he seems capable of, so far.

[AlanSkÃrare]

Since Pardew has been here we have lost;

 

Carroll - Our number 9 at the time and main goalscorer, leaving us with an unfancied Best.

Nolan - Captain and responsible for a lot of our goals.

Barton - After his best season at the club by a long way.

Enrique - One of the best left backs we have ever had.

Best - A very capable back up striker who despite being unfancied did fantastically to fill in for Carroll.

Guthrie - Squad player on the whole but the season he left he played a key role and some were even suggesting he was playing better than Cabaye.

Ba - The most prolific striker we have had since Shearer.

 

That's a lot of key players to leave, okay Pardew is lucky to have Carr here to make sure they are replaced but that is still quite a large turn over of many key players in a short space of time.

 

You mention how attractive Wigan are but as others have mentioned there are teams around their level in this league who have performed much better. They have spent around £9.5m per season on transfers too which isn't the lowest spend either.

 

Carroll - we were offered a ridiculous fee and rightly accepted it ...look at the replacements.

Nolan - did a good job but had too much influence over Hughton and dressing room..reputedly.

Past his best .

Barton - had a good season but was often involved in controversy. We could, and did, do better.

Best - the lad was the biggest loss of all in my view but he was never going to be first choice.. a bit like David Kelly when we got promoted, and I was a big Kelly fan but could see why he went..

Guthrie - only missed because we didn't strengthen enough after his departure.Not a 90 min player..

Enrique - thought the club was going in the wrong direction and refused another contract - his choice.

Ba - did a good job for us but was never going to stay...same as at W.Ham.

 

Pardew has had these players - with the exception of Ba  - replaced by far better players ; Sissoko, Gouffran, Yanga-Mbiwa, Anita and Haidara(jury still out but young and with potential)....Martinez has NO chance of having replacements fo his players who meet these standards so Pardew has less excuse for producing a decent side...

 

Nolan past his best? He was at his best. I think it was how much he was limiting us playing wise that was the main reason. Replacing him with Cabaye made us look a completley different team when we don't hoof.

 

As for Martinez, his teams have never been able to defend. He's never had an eye for good defenders by the looks of it. Still persisting with Gary Caldwell and Emmerson Boyce after all these years.

 

Funds is one thing, but he's in charge of a pretty shit team playing nice football. They concede loads and don't score enough. It's always been the same.

[mozy]

Which shows he can attract decent players. The real money makers were brought in by Bruce though.

 

At the end of the day he took over a side that finished 14th then 11th and got them to 16th, 16th, 15th and they are currently 19th.

 

He has made absolutely zero progress in that time, in fact they have gone backwards, he plays nice football but he doesn't seem to have it in him to kick them on. As said earlier, I think he is at the perfect club for him. Absolutely no desire to do anything more than stay up which he seems capable of, so far.

 

He really needs to leave to progress, should take his chance while the media perception of him still seems to have him as a good manager.

[Dave]

“You’d like to think with him(Gouffran) on one side, Ben Arfa on the other side and Sissoko and Cissé – blimey, that’s mouthwatering for us,” he said.

 

[Tooj]

Wigan don't have it in themselves to kick on in all honesty. They can't attract quality players and their finances are poor due to the pitiful home attendances they get every week.

 

I think he is a better manager to Pardew and if he had the same opportunities as him then he would prove it. What I really like about him is not just he seems to be able to get more out of the attacking talent at his disposal. I really like the positive attitude he has too, doesn't hide behind refereeing decisions or tries to blame the fans for results. He'll admit if he's made a mistake.

[Tooj]

I'm also happy to give my backing to Pardew as after last season he deserves our support and he has that from me.

 

I'm still not convinced he's the man for us long-term but he works well under our system at the moment and I know it's an overused word but stability for us actually is a massive thing.

 

I've no doubt though with the calibre of players that we are bringing in if our board went out there and tried to find a replacement for him they'd have no problem in finding an upgrade on him.

[Shearergol]

Guthrie - Squad player on the whole but the season he left he played a key role and some were even suggesting he was playing better than Cabaye.

 

Hang on, what?? I assume these people have since been banned?