oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think it's very naive to believe that the players are playing it long against the manager's instructions and simply because they're incompetent. Cabaye and Colo both play significantly more long balls than Williamson and Simpson for a start, which I have been saying for months and months. It's clearly the way the manager wants to play, with the intention that the ball gets to our dangerous players as soon as possible and no-one's in any danger of being caught out of position. Where is this from btw? http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/23/Show/England-Newcastle-United via Opta. I admittedly haven't done the math, but you'd assume that Cabaye plays significantly more long passes because he plays significantly more passes period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think it's very naive to believe that the players are playing it long against the manager's instructions and simply because they're incompetent. Cabaye and Colo both play significantly more long balls than Williamson and Simpson for a start, which I have been saying for months and months. It's clearly the way the manager wants to play, with the intention that the ball gets to our dangerous players as soon as possible and no-one's in any danger of being caught out of position. Where is this from btw? http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/23/Show/England-Newcastle-United via Opta. I admittedly haven't done the math, but you'd assume that Cabaye plays significantly more long passes because he plays significantly more passes period. It's average per game, although it's actually "accurate long passes per game" which may skew the figures somewhat in favour of Cabaye playing more as he's more likely to find his man. They show we play a fair amount more than anyone else, both as a percentage of our total passes and in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think it's very naive to believe that the players are playing it long against the manager's instructions and simply because they're incompetent. Cabaye and Colo both play significantly more long balls than Williamson and Simpson for a start, which I have been saying for months and months. It's clearly the way the manager wants to play, with the intention that the ball gets to our dangerous players as soon as possible and no-one's in any danger of being caught out of position. Where is this from btw? http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/23/Show/England-Newcastle-United via Opta. I admittedly haven't done the math, but you'd assume that Cabaye plays significantly more long passes because he plays significantly more passes period. It's average per game, although it's actually "accurate long passes per game" which may skew the figures somewhat in favour of Cabaye playing more as he's more likely to find his man. They show we play a fair amount more than anyone else, both as a percentage of our total passes and in general. What I mean is Cabaye plays 45.9 passes per game while say... Williamson only plays 32.5, so obviously Cabaye's long passes would be higher than Williamson for that reason, regardless of whether we're going by total or per game. Just briefly doing the math, Cabaye comes out as about 20.47% long passes as a proportion of total passes. Williamson is 19.61%, Colo 21.5%, Simpson 20.54%. I doubt any of those differences are statistically significant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Long passes also aren't necessarily hoofs either. Cabaye switching it wide would be classed in the same bracket as Williamson aimlessly toe punting the ball the width of the east stand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Long passes also aren't necessarily hoofs either. Cabaye switching it wide would be classed in the same bracket as Williamson aimlessly toe punting the ball the width of the east stand. Also, a short pass for Williamson could be passing it back meaninglessly to Krul, while most of Cabaye's short passes would probably be contested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 DEATH TO PROZONE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 It's really hard to make any sort of meaningful statistical argument about football. Too many moving parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I've said previously that we lack a coherent identity. Pardew must now define us; we are either a fluid passing side in a 4-3-3 or a direct, aggressive team in a 4-4-2. Pursuing both Carroll and Anita over the summer was somewhat baffling - and it is this inner conflict that continues to hinder us. A conflict that is represented by Pardew's stubborn determination in pursuing a strike pairing that will never function. We are a team selected through fear of both the opposition and upsetting our most valuable assets, which leaves us lost and a bit rubbish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 It's really hard to make any sort of meaningful statistical argument about football. Too many moving parts. Indeed. It might be a myth but apparently Schmeichel once spent 90 mins running back and forward during a game just to prove how pointless it all is. Though the geeky stats talk makes me think of this http://i.imgur.com/D6uUr.jpg so it's not all bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 It's really hard to make any sort of meaningful statistical argument about football. Too many moving parts. Indeed. It might be a myth but apparently Schmeichel once spent 90 mins running back and forward during a game just to prove how pointless it all is. Though the geeky stats talk makes me think of this http://i.imgur.com/D6uUr.jpg so it's not all bad. I don't think it's pointless, it's just hard and needs to be detailed. I would hope the pros wouldn't rely on short v long passes, they would sort them into better categories first (progressive, defensive, under pressure etc). Dunno like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 It's really hard to make any sort of meaningful statistical argument about football. Too many moving parts. Pardew is a manager that use's statistics though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gleebals Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 If thats the case, he would not be spouting so much shit. Statistically we have been shit, end of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhaircut Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Re this long passes thing against Cabaye. Surely his pass to Ba against the Mackems would be counted as a 'long pass' by a machine? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. Pretty sure it was Curbishley who benched Tevez no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
binnsy Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. No he didn't have to play like Maradona, Hatem had to get match fit after missing a year of football after a broken leg and also learn that if he wanted to be in the team he would have to fit into the "team work ethic". Pardew handled HBA brilliantly last season and has probably made him a better player if you've listened or heard any of Hatems interviews he says the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Totally agree. We got a result too many times last year just holding on and playing percentage football. In this league that will only get you so far. One or two key players start to underperform and poof it's all over. Think also the players are beginning to wonder what's going on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. Pretty sure it was Curbishley who benched Tevez no? http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/14/article-0-013EAD82000004B0-24_468x298.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. No he didn't have to play like Maradona, Hatem had to get match fit after missing a year of football after a broken leg and also learn that if he wanted to be in the team he would have to fit into the "team work ethic". Pardew handled HBA brilliantly last season and has probably made him a better player if you've listened or heard any of Hatems interviews he says the same. This is the myth Pards spread and was swallowed hook line and sinker. As is clear from the above. I remember him bigging up Obertan performance after performace when we could all see he was timid on the ball and had no heart. Played 15 games in a row didn't he?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. Pretty sure it was Curbishley who benched Tevez no? http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/14/article-0-013EAD82000004B0-24_468x298.jpg Curbishley left the 23-year-old on the bench for his first game in charge, a 1-0 win over Manchester United in December, and it was a month before he named Tevez in a starting line-up in the Premiership. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Also at West Ham i may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure towards the end of his tenure that the owner was getting involved with first team affairs and undermining Pardew. None the less it's way to early to be taking about this, does he need to up his game? without a doubt he doesn't have a clue tactically at the moment but he's obviously earned some time to sort it out. The supporters at West Ham hated his style. The long balls to the likes of Cole and Harewood. Tevez and Masch benched cause he had a huff with them. THOSE are FACTS. Reminded me of those games where he preferred Obertan to Hatem (Obertan is the only player he had a hand in recruiting btw). If you remember Hatem had to play miracle football when he got his chance to stay in the side. I mean he had to perform like Maradona and then the supporters started calling for him every game. Honestly it felt like touch and go if he'd every get into Pards good books or be discarded. I remember it well. Pretty sure it was Curbishley who benched Tevez no? http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/14/article-0-013EAD82000004B0-24_468x298.jpg The row is well documented. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 My brother is a Wham fan and he says Pardew was harshly treated and didn't deserve the sack. And the football wasn't long ball at all. Fwiw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 "Some of the best football seen at upton park? Bollocks did he. You mean the man who preferred Hayden Mullins over Javier Mascherano and wouldn't play Tevez and nearly had us relegated. Yeah what a legacy he left us." WHAM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henke Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 This will all be forgotton about in 12 games time when we're flying at home and in europe, pushing for a champions league place and Pardew is Jesus in a suit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 My brother is a Wham fan and he says Pardew was harshly treated and didn't deserve the sack. And the football wasn't long ball at all. Fwiw. They used to kick it up the park mate to Carlton Cole and Harewood (A Pards signing). Not all the time granted. If he had he'd have been lynched. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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