Ba and Cissé

[AlanSkÃrare]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

 

I think he prefers 4-4-2 and whacking long balls to the front man. If he was really a 4-3-3 man there's no way he'd have spent so long last season and tried to start this season playing that type of football. He wouldn't be much of a manager if he changed his formation and entire football philosophy to keep one player happy.

 

First time I recall us going 433 was in January v QPR, midway through the 1st half, when he surprised everyone by putting Ben Arfa on for the injured Cabaye.  It had been an abysmal performance up to that point. It picked up slightly and we won the game. Don't think 433 had ever been mentioned as a possibility on here up until that game, it was entirely his own doing, and I reckon it was the best way of fitting Ben Arfa into the team at that stage of his development. Alot of posters on here at that time actually wanted him to get back to the tactics that got us unbeaten in 11 games.

 

He then tried it in a few other games that month, but it didn't look great with Best out wide and Jonas sometimes used as an attacking central midfielder.

 

So I wouldn't say hes opposed to it particularly. I just think that at the moment he wants to get 2 quality strikers near the goal as much as possible, but is finding it very difficult to make it work.

 

Personally I was very impressed with the way he evolved the team last season: Started with a 442 with a front 4 of Jonas-Ba-Best-Obertan, and Simpson and Taylor at fullback, (that went 11 unbeaten).

 

By the end of March he had successfully got Ben Arfa and Cisse into the side, both playing incredibly effectively (I thought HBA was quite poor this time last year) and he'd started to get Santon going as well. Got 7 wins in 8 with some decent football at times, sometimes in a 442 and sometimes a 433.

 

So I'd say hes been extremely impressive as far as tactics go. We are struggling a little bit at the moment, but theres more than enough evidence from last season to suggest he will take steps to sort it out.

 

Very good post.

[sugoinufc]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

 

I think he prefers 4-4-2 and whacking long balls to the front man. If he was really a 4-3-3 man there's no way he'd have spent so long last season and tried to start this season playing that type of football. He wouldn't be much of a manager if he changed his formation and entire football philosophy to keep one player happy.

 

First time I recall us going 433 was in January v QPR, midway through the 1st half, when he surprised everyone by putting Ben Arfa on for the injured Cabaye.  It had been an abysmal performance up to that point. It picked up slightly and we won the game. Don't think 433 had ever been mentioned as a possibility on here up until that game, it was entirely his own doing, and I reckon it was the best way of fitting Ben Arfa into the team at that stage of his development. Alot of posters on here at that time actually wanted him to get back to the tactics that got us unbeaten in 11 games.

 

He then tried it in a few other games that month, but it didn't look great with Best out wide and Jonas sometimes used as an attacking central midfielder.

 

So I wouldn't say hes opposed to it particularly. I just think that at the moment he wants to get 2 quality strikers near the goal as much as possible, but is finding it very difficult to make it work.

 

Personally I was very impressed with the way he evolved the team last season: Started with a 442 with a front 4 of Jonas-Ba-Best-Obertan, and Simpson and Taylor at fullback, (that went 11 unbeaten).

 

By the end of March he had successfully got Ben Arfa and Cisse into the side, both playing incredibly effectively (I thought HBA was quite poor this time last year) and he'd started to get Santon going as well. Got 7 wins in 8 with some decent football at times, sometimes in a 442 and sometimes a 433.

 

So I'd say hes been extremely impressive as far as tactics go. We are struggling a little bit at the moment, but theres more than enough evidence from last season to suggest he will take steps to sort it out.

 

Very good post.

 

not sure if convinced still think we should go for 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 as our main formation and accept that ba and cisse does not work that great together. We can always swap during matches (to 4-4-2 for example) and play both cisse and ba together if needed. Just think cisse is wasted in every position other than central striker. he just has to focus on his hold up play, be in box and his finishing.

 

think we have the players to play more attractive football...and ba, cisse and especially arfa have shown how deadly we are on the counter.

[Guest hydeous]

The problem is Ba and Cisse are two of our best eleven players and we need both of them or our attacking threat is pretty easy to nullify.

It's easy to say a formation with one of them up top will work, but do we have the players for that formation? Who's our other wide forward? Sammy? Marveux? Obertan?

[sugoinufc]

The problem is Ba and Cisse are two of our best eleven players and we need both of them or our attacking threat is pretty easy to nullify.

It's easy to say a formation with one of them up top will work, but do we have the players for that formation? Who's our other wide forward? Sammy? Marveux? Obertan?

 

no matter formation i hope we will buy a attacking LW. maybe that will be harsh on sammy, marveaux, amalfitano, obertan, ferguson, jonas (who should play central anyway).

[Dr Venkman]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

 

I think he prefers 4-4-2 and whacking long balls to the front man. If he was really a 4-3-3 man there's no way he'd have spent so long last season and tried to start this season playing that type of football. He wouldn't be much of a manager if he changed his formation and entire football philosophy to keep one player happy.

Don't think 433 had ever been mentioned as a possibility on here up until that game

 

That's bollocks

[Spudil]

Nah man I don't think anyone on here had ever mentioned a 4-3-3 as a possibility up until Pards invented it in the QPR match

This forum at times man 

[Jayson]

Perhaps read the entirety of his post?

[Dr Venkman]

I did, the part i quoted was bollocks.

[Jayson]

Aye it was already called into question, rest of his post is solid.

 

Anyway there were quite a few ideas going around at the time, in regards to Barfa. People also wanted him played off a front man (where hed been quiet), behind a front 2, on the left. Pretty much anywhere aslong as he was playing.

[Tiresias]

I think they can form a good relationship but Ba needs to be better at bringing Cisse into the game imo as they thrive on different balls. Ba liks to receive the ball, make some room and then shoot, or flick the ball on into the goal from a cross (can't think of many forwards better than him at this) whereas Cisse wants to score from off the ball clever runs to get beyond the defence. As such Ba draws draws defences deep which makes things harder for Cisse.

 

Ba needs to pull defences towards him more and then lay the ball off to Cisse making runs in behind more imo.

[tmonkey]

As a partnership, I think it's doomed. Both are p*ss poor at challenging defenders effectively with their backs to goal, their flick ons or knockdowns rarely go to a teammate (hence why we wanted Carroll). Their linkup play is a tad s*** with other midfielders and practically non-existent between each other. Both are inconsistent or unreliable when it comes to basics like first touches, first time passes, crosses, flicks, etc (not to say they can't produce good touches etc, it's that they're inconsistent at them and liable to produce e.g. an overly heavy touch or pass for no good reason) - I've seen other posters mention partnerships like Yorke-Cole or Shearer-Ferdinand, but from what I remember Shearer and Yorke especially were light years ahead of Ba/Cisse when it comes to consistency in their basic and linkup play, so each partnership had at least one player who was deadly consistent at the basics. So imo we have a situation where we have two quality goalscorers in the team but it's Shola who often comes off the bench and traps a ball, dribbles with it, or wins a knockdown far more convincingly than Ba/Cisse will have done in the previous 60-70 minutes they spent on the pitch.

 

Both strikers excel at sticking the ball in the back of the net, so more often than not one of them will bag a goal and it'll paper over the cracks. But ultimately their "partnership" only serves to make things harder for the team as a whole - it's bad enough that we have defenders lumping it forward because they're not comfortable on the ball, or wide players who struggle to put in a good cross, but then on top of that we have strikers providing very little for the team to work with. I'd love to be wrong about this, but there does need to be a point when we have to accept that you can't always throw two good goalscorers together and expect it to work. E.g. Torres and Drogba. Maybe that point would be after giving them an entire season to "hit it off", but the price of that might be a mid table finish for the club just because of this hope that they'll start gelling at some point.

[captainhaircut]

As a partnership, I think it's doomed. Both are p*ss poor at challenging defenders effectively with their backs to goal, their flick ons or knockdowns rarely go to a teammate (hence why we wanted Carroll). Their linkup play is a tad s*** with other midfielders and practically non-existent between each other. Both are inconsistent or unreliable when it comes to basics like first touches, first time passes, crosses, flicks, etc (not to say they can't produce good touches etc, it's that they're inconsistent at them and liable to produce e.g. an overly heavy touch or pass for no good reason) - I've seen other posters mention partnerships like Yorke-Cole or Shearer-Ferdinand, but from what I remember Shearer and Yorke especially were light years ahead of Ba/Cisse when it comes to consistency in their basic and linkup play, so each partnership had at least one player who was deadly consistent at the basics. So imo we have a situation where we have two quality goalscorers in the team but it's Shola who often comes off the bench and traps a ball, dribbles with it, or wins a knockdown far more convincingly than Ba/Cisse will have done in the previous 60-70 minutes they spent on the pitch.

 

Both strikers excel at sticking the ball in the back of the net, so more often than not one of them will bag a goal and it'll paper over the cracks. But ultimately their "partnership" only serves to make things harder for the team as a whole - it's bad enough that we have defenders lumping it forward because they're not comfortable on the ball, or wide players who struggle to put in a good cross, but then on top of that we have strikers providing very little for the team to work with. I'd love to be wrong about this, but there does need to be a point when we have to accept that you can't always throw two good goalscorers together and expect it to work. E.g. Torres and Drogba. Maybe that point would be after giving them an entire season to "hit it off", but the price of that might be a mid table finish for the club just because of this hope that they'll start gelling at some point.

 

Great post. Agree completely.

 

While you mention the 'basics', I would add that their match intellgence is very poor. Both often make poor decisions outside of the box and they really operate as instinctive players.

[Tiresias]

I think Cisse needs to be alone up front but think Ba has enough about him to operate on the left or in the hole if Pardew is really desperate, I don't think Ba is as bad at linkup play as you say but he also wants to be upfront all the time meaning he's not available too often.

[Mole_Toonfan]

I think Cisse needs to be alone up front but think Ba has enough about him to operate on the left or in the hole if Pardew is really desperate, I don't think Ba is as bad at linkup play as you say but he also wants to be upfront all the time meaning he's not available too often.

 

Ba has the ability to play on the left for the good of the team but he doesn't like doing it the question isn't really is Ba capable of it it's whether Ba will actually do it.

 

I get the feeling that sooner or later one of them will make way the question is who.

 

[Ronaldo]

There's no reason we can't play both and alternate them in a 4-3-3.

[Sifu]

There's no reason we can't play both and alternate them in a 4-3-3.

 

Especially when we actually did do something like that last season. Pretty sure there were some games where Cisse moved to the left and Ba went central.

[Kanji]

There's no reason we can't play both and alternate them in a 4-3-3.

 

Yep. Exactly.

[Guest BooBoo]

Yey! More 433 talk.

[Guest neesy111]

This 433 talk is becoming annoying.

[Pilko]

Yey! More 433 talk.

 

The 442/433 stuff is like one of the old Crystal Maze games where the contestant would be doing completely the wrong thing, all the teammates outside would be shouting "No! Alan! 4-3-3!" and he carries on doing the 4-4-2 to no avail.

[alexthegreat]

I think Cisse needs to be alone up front but think Ba has enough about him to operate on the left or in the hole if Pardew is really desperate, I don't think Ba is as bad at linkup play as you say but he also wants to be upfront all the time meaning he's not available too often.

 

Ba has the ability to play on the left for the good of the team but he doesn't like doing it the question isn't really is Ba capable of it it's whether Ba will actually do it.

 

I get the feeling that sooner or later one of them will make way the question is who.

 

 

The one with the dodgy knee

[Guest BooBoo]

Yey! More 433 talk.

 

The 442/433 stuff is like one of the old Crystal Maze games where the contestant would be doing completely the wrong thing, all the teammates outside would be shouting "No! Alan! 4-3-3!" and he carries on doing the 4-4-2 to no avail.

 

Good analogy.

 

Nothing more annoying than watching some clip panicking in the room, whilst all his team mates knew exactly what to do but unable to help. The contestant meanwhile starts flapping while squealing "WHERE'S THE CRYSTAL!?!"

[Guest BooBoo]

This 433 talk is becoming annoying.

 

It's ruining the board.

 

Tbh there's nothing else to say. Everyone pretty much agrees we should be using it. There's absolutely nothing else worth saying on the increasingly tiresome subject.

[Fugazi]

[Guest BooBoo]

 

The failure of someone just tossing the towel in never failed to tickle.

 

"Nah, that's it. Let me out. LET ME OUT!"