A sad day

[Crayola Kid]

agree very much that the time period chosen above (1998) suits the argument given better than any other would.  how many years before or since have we topped barcelona, for example?

 

the stat that sticks in my mind, relative to this subject, concerns the matchday revenue for the first season back up in the prem, under hughton/pardew (used because that was the period disussed by the blogger who provided the figures). 

 

the swiss ramble gave the figures in a blog at the time for average attendance and matchday income, tickets/programmes/pies etc. 

 

with an almost identical crowd figure, we took over one-and-a-half times the amount in revenue that sunderland managed.  with a crowd ten thousand per game smaller than either, spurs took over one-and-a-half times what we did, week by week.

 

call it thinking big, or whatever, but even if we still got a big crowd, would anyone actually be happier paying more for a ticket and more for a pint if it meant the revenue figures stacked up better at the end of the season?  it wouldnt matter who owned us, the market for tickets and for corporate ents in london puts a decent premier league side in a different league to us, in these terms

[Interpolic]

It's not just matchday revenue though, is it?  That's not much more than a third of a club's revenue these days.  And I think most people would be willing to pay a touch more to watch football that isn't entirely joyless anyway.

[Guest neesy111]

My biggest issue at the moment, is that the whole club just feels cheap and all about breaking even no matter what.  Not about ambition or building the best squad for the club of our size.

[Interpolic]

A big part of it is we leave ourselves massively short in various positions every single transfer window, because we're always hanging about for value or whatever.

[Crayola Kid]

its not just matchday, no, but that small example across three clubs shows we arent comparing like with like.  safc crowds would be much smaller at our prices, and spurs would perhaps be much larger at our prices, given a suitable stadium.  each club operates in its own market.

 

i was responding to the long post above which referenced a year where nufc took more revenue than all but 4 clubs worldwide.  generally agree with the slightly empty feelings towards what football has become, but the figures given didnt tell much of the story.  man utd took twice what barcelona did that year, that doesnt mean they have failed since, or that they would have done any better under different ownership (turnover)

[Interpolic]

I have no doubt that we could fill our ground at significantly higher prices if we were playing the sort of football and getting the sort of results Spurs do year-on-year.

[Stuy_O]

The clubs revenue will continue to be poor if we're a whoring project for Sports Direct. From the outside looking in it's just shoddy and unattractive.

[Crayola Kid]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1bjqqBaC2MY/UYOtsABROpI/AAAAAAAAGq0/Qz9TykwQ1Gg/s640/Man+Utd+Money+League.jpg

[Crayola Kid]

i'm not sure we could get too much more in gate receipts, and location limits the corporate thing, the market just wont ever be as big.  not sure how much more revenue we need to pick ourselves up from 16th in the prem mind, looking at the table above

[Stu]

What a pile of misguided, heart-string-tugging codswallop.

 

By disagreeing you've just entirely validated his post.  Twat.

 

Go on then, what logic did you apply to arrive at that insightful conclusion?

[loki679]

What a pile of misguided, heart-string-tugging codswallop.

 

By disagreeing you've just entirely validated his post.  Twat.

 

Go on then, what logic did you apply to arrive at that insightful conclusion?

 

The logic of extremely cheap alcohol and an afternoon off work apparently.  I'm at a loss as to what I was getting at.

[Stu]

fair play

[Stu]

He's got a massively valid point about us standing still in revenue terms, which equates to going backwards since other teams have went forward in this respect.

 

Mock away though Stu, you seem to enjoy yourself doing it so knock yourself out.

 

Oh, I missed this his "massively valid point" isn't all that valid when you realise that we were simply ahead of the game in 1998 and that temporary commercial advantage has long since been eroded by the 'bigger' clubs simply realising the change in situation. SJH was one of the first to realise the direction football was heading in after the Premiership was created and he did a fantastic job of setting us up to ride the crest of that wave.

 

Where 'traditional' owners and chairman were reluctant to embrace the change (but not the increased revenues), we surged ahead of them in terms of identifying commercial revenue streams and exploiting them. Nowadays, this is all commonplace for any professional club, let alone a top flight club, across Europe.

 

We enjoyed a brief period in the 90s as "everyone's second team" and "the entertainers" which put a positive spin on the brand; however, years of mismanagement from the top saw that eroded (arguably starting with the sacking of Robson). The subsequent 'fall' of the club in recent years and the economic downturn has only helped to reduce our commercial revenue earnings potential. However, as it has been pointed out in other threads, an increase in turnover isn't necessarily a good sign for the club as a business.

 

Its "great stuff" for the likes of HTT and yourself because its what you want to hear and what you want to read about the club. It also supports your disdain towards the current regime and how the club is ran. It doesn't make it true.

 

EDIT: as Crayola Kid has so eloquently observed, picking the year after we'd finished 2nd and 2nd is somewhat fortunate.

[BottledDog]

Well, quite.

[merlin]

Anyone who is happy with the way that the club is being directed and run now is going to see NUFC decline steadily as a result - the days when 60,000 would cram into SJP to see 11 B & W shirts are long gone and will soon be the stuff of folklore. People are fighting a losing battle to maintain their income and will be more and more reluctant to hit the credit card in order to watch the anti-football dished up by Pardew's teams. As the PL becomes even more of a 4/5 team race, so-called provincial clubs will be the losers just as happened in Scotland and if the club is ever relegated again it will face a monumental struggle to get back into the PL.

 

The waiting list for STs is long gone - it was 20,000 strong when KK and SJH were running the club but started falling after SBR was sacked and Ashley/Llambias have completed the process.

Acceptance of the status quo will become less and less justifiable when money is tight(anyone who thinks a REAL recovery is happening in the UK is living in cuckoo land - 43,000 jobs were lost between last qtr of 2012 and end of first qtr 2013(DT Financial pages last week) and as crowds fall, so will the club because the fans are ALL it has in the positive column.

 

Once the habit of attending stops it will be hard to start again and I am not convinced that the majority of fans will keep accepting a struggling or mediocre PL side in the long term.

Despite what Shankly once famously said, football is NOT more important than life and death..

[Deuce]

What a pile of misguided, heart-string-tugging codswallop.

 

By disagreeing you've just entirely validated his post.  Twat.

 

[The Narcissist]

Things aren;t great right now and the toys are flying from all the prams but the people who say i'm done for ever or iv'e lost the love of the club will be straight back and passionate as most after a few decent wins or some progress, everyone was so down around Christmas but when the new lads came in and we beat Chelsea alot of us on here were absolutely buzzing, it's just the way things go especially at this club, not that it's acceptable but it's reality.

[Stu]

What a pile of misguided, heart-string-tugging codswallop.

 

By disagreeing you've just entirely validated his post.  Twat.

 

 

desperate Deunce, even for a fisherman such as yourself - thumbing up someone's drunken ramblings

[Stu]

The waiting list for STs is long gone - it was 20,000 strong when KK and SJH were running the club but started falling after SBR was sacked and Ashley/Llambias have completed the process.

 

1995 - 36,610 capacity

 

2005 - 52,327* capacity

 

I take your point about the demand to watch the team is dwindling, but a lot of the previous demand was met by the club's supply. Bit harsh to use that as an example of falling support.

 

*various minor additions through the seasons.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Anyone who is happy with the way that the club is being directed and run now is going to see NUFC decline steadily as a result - the days when 60,000 would cram into SJP to see 11 B & W shirts are long gone and will soon be the stuff of folklore. People are fighting a losing battle to maintain their income and will be more and more reluctant to hit the credit card in order to watch the anti-football dished up by Pardew's teams. As the PL becomes even more of a 4/5 team race, so-called provincial clubs will be the losers just as happened in Scotland and if the club is ever relegated again it will face a monumental struggle to get back into the PL.

 

The waiting list for STs is long gone - it was 20,000 strong when KK and SJH were running the club but started falling after SBR was sacked and Ashley/Llambias have completed the process.

Acceptance of the status quo will become less and less justifiable when money is tight(anyone who thinks a REAL recovery is happening in the UK is living in cuckoo land - 43,000 jobs were lost between last qtr of 2012 and end of first qtr 2013(DT Financial pages last week) and as crowds fall, so will the club because the fans are ALL it has in the positive column.

 

Once the habit of attending stops it will be hard to start again and I am not convinced that the majority of fans will keep accepting a struggling or mediocre PL side in the long term.

Despite what Shankly once famously said, football is NOT more important than life and death..

 

I take your point but it will only take one season anywhere near the 5th place finish to get things back on a positive note and stop people giving up their tickets. We've done amazingly well to maintain the levels of support even through bad times, haven't we? We're already in the worst recession in a generation and we're still selling out nearly every week.

 

If we finish in the bottom 6 for another couple of seasons then, obviously, some people will stop going. But if we do well then people will stay and new fans arrive. I think that's just the life of a football club... nobody has 60,000 fans who will go no matter what, it's virtually impossible.

[Guest neesy111]

Anyone who is happy with the way that the club is being directed and run now is going to see NUFC decline steadily as a result - the days when 60,000 would cram into SJP to see 11 B & W shirts are long gone and will soon be the stuff of folklore. People are fighting a losing battle to maintain their income and will be more and more reluctant to hit the credit card in order to watch the anti-football dished up by Pardew's teams. As the PL becomes even more of a 4/5 team race, so-called provincial clubs will be the losers just as happened in Scotland and if the club is ever relegated again it will face a monumental struggle to get back into the PL.

 

The waiting list for STs is long gone - it was 20,000 strong when KK and SJH were running the club but started falling after SBR was sacked and Ashley/Llambias have completed the process.

Acceptance of the status quo will become less and less justifiable when money is tight(anyone who thinks a REAL recovery is happening in the UK is living in cuckoo land - 43,000 jobs were lost between last qtr of 2012 and end of first qtr 2013(DT Financial pages last week) and as crowds fall, so will the club because the fans are ALL it has in the positive column.

 

Once the habit of attending stops it will be hard to start again and I am not convinced that the majority of fans will keep accepting a struggling or mediocre PL side in the long term.

Despite what Shankly once famously said, football is NOT more important than life and death..

 

I take your point but it will only take one season anywhere near the 5th place finish to get things back on a positive note and stop people giving up their tickets. We've done amazingly well to maintain the levels of support even through bad times, haven't we? We're already in the worst recession in a generation and we're still selling out nearly every week.

 

If we finish in the bottom 6 for another couple of seasons then, obviously, some people will stop going. But if we do well then people will stay and new fans arrive. I think that's just the life of a football club... nobody has 60,000 fans who will go no matter what, it's virtually impossible.

 

We are selling out because we have nearly 10,000 discounted family tickets in the stadium now.  If we had a family enclosure the same size as we did 6 years ago, our attendances would be far lower and the club knows it.

[Stu]

Should the club not be encouraged for trying to make football more accessible to families and younger fans?

 

I thought the big problem with football was that it was becoming more "middle class" and pricing out it's traditional working class families. Why is this now a point to discredit the club's attendances?

[Guest neesy111]

Should the club not be encouraged for trying to make football more accessible to families and younger fans?

 

I thought the big problem with football was that it was becoming more "middle class" and pricing out it's traditional working class families. Why is this now a point to discredit the club's attendances?

 

I'm saying it's masking how many people have deserted the club in recent years especially under Ashley.  It's good but there's a reason why the club is doing it and I don't believe under this regime it's got to do with encouraging families into the stadium.

[merlin]

Anyone who is happy with the way that the club is being directed and run now is going to see NUFC decline steadily as a result - the days when 60,000 would cram into SJP to see 11 B & W shirts are long gone and will soon be the stuff of folklore. People are fighting a losing battle to maintain their income and will be more and more reluctant to hit the credit card in order to watch the anti-football dished up by Pardew's teams. As the PL becomes even more of a 4/5 team race, so-called provincial clubs will be the losers just as happened in Scotland and if the club is ever relegated again it will face a monumental struggle to get back into the PL.

 

The waiting list for STs is long gone - it was 20,000 strong when KK and SJH were running the club but started falling after SBR was sacked and Ashley/Llambias have completed the process.

Acceptance of the status quo will become less and less justifiable when money is tight(anyone who thinks a REAL recovery is happening in the UK is living in cuckoo land - 43,000 jobs were lost between last qtr of 2012 and end of first qtr 2013(DT Financial pages last week) and as crowds fall, so will the club because the fans are ALL it has in the positive column.

 

Once the habit of attending stops it will be hard to start again and I am not convinced that the majority of fans will keep accepting a struggling or mediocre PL side in the long term.

Despite what Shankly once famously said, football is NOT more important than life and death..

 

I take your point but it will only take one season anywhere near the 5th place finish to get things back on a positive note and stop people giving up their tickets. We've done amazingly well to maintain the levels of support even through bad times, haven't we? We're already in the worst recession in a generation and we're still selling out nearly every week.

 

If we finish in the bottom 6 for another couple of seasons then, obviously, some people will stop going. But if we do well then people will stay and new fans arrive. I think that's just the life of a football club... nobody has 60,000 fans who will go no matter what, it's virtually impossible.

 

Firstly, you have a great deal more confidence in Ashley/Llambias/Pardew if you think we are going to reach 5th place any time soon, than I(and I suspect, many more fans)have.

 

Secondly, I recall meeting a store manager in my youth as a sales rep in SBR's home town of Langley Park just after we had won the Fairs Cup in 69. He had been to Wembley 3 times in the 50s and to him, the club had gone backwards since then and he had stopped going. He thought the style of play and standard of players at the club was far worse than 15 years earlier....now that sounds familiar...!

 

Don't ever think that the club can take it for granted that the fans will always turn up - this is a far more demanding world than that of the 50s/60s and people have far more to spend their hard-earned cash on...many have had to move from the NE to find work and won't travel every 2 weeks, esp if they are watching dire football.

 

We have virtually NO chance of ever being among the trophies as things stand and even Top 5 seems a huge ask. Ashley will be satisfied with Top 10 and that is where the club is just likely to scrape into most seasons now unless there is a major change of managment or the signing of players ; both things look very unlikely and if there is another Cup surrender a' la Brighton next season, you will find some very angry fellow fans indeed.....the club has been stupid enough to fall out with the local DT sports reporter and his editor is sticking with the guy so apart from the local media - who very few believe - we are going to get very jaundiced press coverage over the coming season. All of this is likely to affect attendances if we get off to a poor start and as neesy says, the club are doing a Mackem and selling tickets cheap under the guise of being family friendly( Yeah, right!)....

[AyeDubbleYoo]

A lot of that is fair enough, but we haven't had a chance of a trophy for years and the recession has also been going on for ages. Granted we are letting some youngsters in cheap but we have managed to maintain good crowds so far.

 

I don't agree we need a major change of signing of players, that is one thing we're pretty much getting right. Falling out with Luke Edwards also means absolutely nothing.

 

I just think it will take a sustained period of poor football to get people to stop going. I'm not saying we'll finish 5th again, but a decent season is all we need to keep most people happy.