Alan Pardew

[Mick]

 

 

So now league position is a "meaningless stat" the same as long balls hit and shots from outside the box?

 

See this thread i started over on TT...

 

http://www.toontastic.net/board/topic/31769-whos-had-the-easiest-start/

 

That was October 2011.  It was clear to me our position was not representative of the quality of our football.  We'd had an incredibly easy start and were remarkably injury free.  In the face of much opposition I argued that pardew's brand of football was not going to sustain us.

 

But as the season went on and on and we maintained that position you had to accept that irrespective of performances, we were consistently winning points enough to stay up there.  The league is not a meaningless stat. It's the measure of how we compare with other teams.  As bad as you think you are, the league will tell you if other teams are worse.

 

It was no shock to me that we dropped down the league.  What was a shock was the outrage it caused amongst people had been watching us play all that time. I am no Pardew fan.  I wasn't then.  Perhaps my consistently low expectations, irrespective of league position is what stops me going apoplectic when we drop to 16th.

 

Targets are set to stretch us.  If they say they want top 8, top half would be fine.  If they say top half, just below would be fine.  In reality, we all know that the ONLY expectation is that we survive.  The entire club, transfer policy, executive & management structure is set up for it. There is no ambition to push on and claim a few extra places for relatively little reward, compared to the TV money.

 

Why do you spend so much time defending him if the bit in bold is true?  Don't reply because of targets the club set him because that's bollocks.  Any target set for him by the club is simply that and has nothing to do with what we as fans want.

[Guest firetotheworks]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

[Guest icemanblue]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

The fucking cheek of it.

[BottledDog]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

Nar man, he's happy for you to dislike the Pardster. Just do it for the right reasons.

[Guest firetotheworks]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

The f***ing cheek of it.

 

"shut up"

[mrmojorisin75]

can you not boil HF's chelp into "he's shit but he's not quite as shit as you lot all make out, and here's why" ?

[Happy Face]

 

 

So now league position is a "meaningless stat" the same as long balls hit and shots from outside the box?

 

See this thread i started over on TT...

 

http://www.toontastic.net/board/topic/31769-whos-had-the-easiest-start/

 

That was October 2011.  It was clear to me our position was not representative of the quality of our football.  We'd had an incredibly easy start and were remarkably injury free.  In the face of much opposition I argued that pardew's brand of football was not going to sustain us.

 

But as the season went on and on and we maintained that position you had to accept that irrespective of performances, we were consistently winning points enough to stay up there.  The league is not a meaningless stat. It's the measure of how we compare with other teams.  As bad as you think you are, the league will tell you if other teams are worse.

 

It was no shock to me that we dropped down the league.  What was a shock was the outrage it caused amongst people had been watching us play all that time. I am no Pardew fan.  I wasn't then.  Perhaps my consistently low expectations, irrespective of league position is what stops me going apoplectic when we drop to 16th.

 

Targets are set to stretch us.  If they say they want top 8, top half would be fine.  If they say top half, just below would be fine.  In reality, we all know that the ONLY expectation is that we survive.  The entire club, transfer policy, executive & management structure is set up for it. There is no ambition to push on and claim a few extra places for relatively little reward, compared to the TV money.

 

Why do you spend so much time defending him if the bit in bold is true?  Don't reply because of targets the club set him because that's bollocks.  Any target set for him by the club is simply that and has nothing to do with what we as fans want.

 

I have only defended what I see as the good things he's done.  It's not black and white.  It would be childish to say "I don't like Pardew so I can't appreciate anything he does".  He isn't pure evil.  He's a mediocre manager and will make many mistakes.  When he takes action to correct it, then it should be applauded.  If you criticise EVERYTHING then you have no critical faculties worthy of the name.

 

I am more inclined to defend than criticise though, as a supporter of the club. I recognise Ashley will do as little as he possibly can to make the job easier, and is incapable of appointing a manager worthy of the club, so I don't see any good for the club coming from negativity.

 

I'm also inclined to defend players and manager the lower we go,  because that's when supporters help their club the most.  Rather than piling on and adding fuel to the fire.  Ring the wagons I say.

[Mick]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

I've noticed a few claiming that they don't defend him, while defending him.

[Happy Face]

can you not boil HF's chelp into "he's shit but he's not quite as shit as you lot all make out, and here's why" ?

 

That's about right tbf. 

 

If people slag him off for something I don't see, then I'm likely to question that criticism.  I think it's important to be fair if you're going to criticise someone.

 

The 13 game run with 2 wins last season was where our season went to shit.  I think saying our season was utter shit from start to finish lacks nuance and fails to highlight the pure unadulterated shit of that period in comparison to the adequate form of the 25 games either side of it.

[Happy Face]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

I've noticed a few claiming that they don't defend him, while defending him.

 

Are you saying Pardew doesn't have one redeemable feature?  He's learned nothing?  Corrected no mistakes?

 

You expose yourself as an unthinking dimwit if so.

 

There was a bloke sat behind me last night, spent the whole game laying into our players, calling them maggots, bellends, pricks and cocks.  Marveaux and Sammy got it in the neck most.  He was droning on and on constantly about our lack of width.  I am no fan of Sammy or Marveaux, but I would defy anyone to argue that this man was not a fucking cunt, unable to judge a performance as it plays out in front of him.  To appreciate the good and criticise the bad.  Strike a balance.

[TRon]

can you not boil HF's chelp into "he's shit but he's not quite as shit as you lot all make out, and here's why" ?

 

That's about right tbf. 

 

If people slag him off for something I don't see, then I'm likely to question that criticism.  I think it's important to be fair if you're going to criticise someone.

 

The 13 game run with 2 wins last season was where our season went to shit.  I think saying our season was utter shit from start to finish lacks nuance and fails to highlight the pure unadulterated shit of that period in comparison to the adequate form of the 25 games either side of it.

 

Pardew's remit as I see it is to get the results that he should considering the players available to him. So if we get beat off Man City I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it, but when we lose to teams like Hull then I am going to feel something's wrong (although obviously every team will have some surprise defeats). You can argue that Ashley hasn't backed him, but he's still got a better squad of players available to him than all the rest bar the top 6/7 clubs. So the criticism he gets here is usually justified IMO.

[Happy Face]

can you not boil HF's chelp into "he's shit but he's not quite as shit as you lot all make out, and here's why" ?

 

That's about right tbf. 

 

If people slag him off for something I don't see, then I'm likely to question that criticism.  I think it's important to be fair if you're going to criticise someone.

 

The 13 game run with 2 wins last season was where our season went to shit.  I think saying our season was utter shit from start to finish lacks nuance and fails to highlight the pure unadulterated shit of that period in comparison to the adequate form of the 25 games either side of it.

 

Pardew's remit as I see it is to get the results that he should considering the players available to him. So if we get beat off Man City I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it, but when we lose to teams like Hull then I am going to feel something's wrong. You can argue that Ashley hasn't backed him, but he's still got a better squad of players available to him than all the rest bar the top 6/7 clubs. So the criticism he gets here is usually justified IMO.

 

I criticised him in this thread after the Hull game too.  Deservedly.

[Mick]

 

I have only defended what I see as the good things he's done.  It's not black and white.  It would be childish to say "I don't like Pardew so I can't appreciate anything he does".  He isn't pure evil.  He's a mediocre manager and will make many mistakes.  When he takes action to correct it, then it should be applauded.  If you criticise EVERYTHING then you have no critical faculties worthy of the name.

 

I am more inclined to defend than criticise though, as a supporter of the club. I recognise Ashley will do as little as he possibly can to make the job easier, and is incapable of appointing a manager worthy of the club, so I don't see any good for the club coming from negativity.

 

I'm also inclined to defend players and manager the lower we go,  because that's when supporters help their club the most.  Rather than piling on and adding fuel to the fire.  Ring the wagons I say.

 

I think everybody has praised him at some point, I've done it and I can't stand him.  I'll not defend him because he works for Ashley, that's his choice and in making that choice he's accepted what he gets or doesn't get.

 

Defending Pardew doesn't help the club if he's still here because of those defending him, not that it will make any difference doing so on here.  If the crowd turns against him and he goes we could end up with a better manager as easily as we could end up with a worse one, even if only because of the law of averages being on our side.  I'm not convinced that Kinnear is the king in waiting and I do think that Kinnear will recognise a better manager than Llambias or Ashley, getting one will not be as easy but that would be a start.

 

What I do know is that for much of the time Pardew has been here we've played shite, even when finishing 5th and we're almost into his 3rd year at the club.  This season has been indifferent and can't be seen as being any better than last because we've seen nothing to suggest so yet, at least nothing that we didn't see last season at some point.

[Guest firetotheworks]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

I've noticed a few claiming that they don't defend him, while defending him.

 

Are you saying Pardew doesn't have one redeemable feature?  He's learned nothing?  Corrected no mistakes?

 

You expose yourself as an unthinking dimwit if so.

 

There was a bloke sat behind me last night, spent the whole game laying into our players, calling them maggots, bellends, pricks and cocks.  Marveaux and Sammy got it in the neck most.  He was droning on and on constantly about our lack of width.  I am no fan of Sammy or Marveaux, but I would defy anyone to argue that this man was not a f***ing c***, unable to judge a performance as it plays out in front of him.  To appreciate the good and criticise the bad.  Strike a balance.

 

What has that bloke got to do with ANYTHING? There's a difference between striking a balance and levelling the playing field.

 

If I looked hard enough, I'd be able to find some redeeming qualities in some of the worst managers in the PL history, there are always ways to look at things in order to make people seem better. It's like getting 'punctual' in your report card, it means nothing. It's just there, taking up unnecessary space, making things look balanced in quantity and not quality.

 

As far as I can see, that's exactly what you're doing. Putting a positive spin on things that to the majority are viewed as either negative, or a given. You could say that that's the product of a pessimistic outlook, but I would argue that a lot of people, myself included have gone through the same way of thinking as you for varying periods of time, until they've come to the conclusion that, actually, it was all evidence upon evidence of Pardew being shit.

 

Going back to your way of thinking now, when I've already drawn a patient and defined conclusion that Pardew isn't good enough makes no sense. I wasn't striking a balance when I thought those things, I was entirely kidding myself that things would get better, when all of the signs pointed towards them getting worse, and all of the outcomes proved that they had.

[Mick]

 

 

Are you saying Pardew doesn't have one redeemable feature?  He's learned nothing?  Corrected no mistakes?

 

You expose yourself as an unthinking dimwit if so.

 

 

To be honest I think somebody who defends something he doesn't seem to like is odd.

 

Now to your questions, I don't think he has many redeemable features, he's handled Cabaye and Coloccini wanting away quite well but I would expect most managers to have handled both the same way.

 

As for learning, he probably has but he's just as likely to repeat mistakes as he's done so many times.

[Happy Face]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

I've noticed a few claiming that they don't defend him, while defending him.

 

Are you saying Pardew doesn't have one redeemable feature?  He's learned nothing?  Corrected no mistakes?

 

You expose yourself as an unthinking dimwit if so.

 

There was a bloke sat behind me last night, spent the whole game laying into our players, calling them maggots, bellends, pricks and cocks.  Marveaux and Sammy got it in the neck most.  He was droning on and on constantly about our lack of width.  I am no fan of Sammy or Marveaux, but I would defy anyone to argue that this man was not a f***ing c***, unable to judge a performance as it plays out in front of him.  To appreciate the good and criticise the bad.  Strike a balance.

 

What has that bloke got to do with ANYTHING? There's a difference between striking a balance and levelling the playing field.

 

If I looked hard enough, I'd be able to find some redeeming qualities in some of the worst managers in the PL history, there are always ways to look at things in order to make people seem better. It's like getting 'punctual' in your report card, it means nothing. It's just there, taking up unnecessary space, making things look balanced in quantity and not quality.

 

As far as I can see, that's exactly what you're doing. Putting a positive spin on things that to the majority are viewed as either negative, or a given. You could say that that's the product of a pessimistic outlook, but I would argue that a lot of people, myself included have gone through the same way of thinking as you for varying periods of time, until they've come to the conclusion that, actually, it was all evidence upon evidence of Pardew being shit.

 

Going back to your way of thinking now, when I've already drawn a patient and defined conclusion that Pardew isn't good enough makes no sense. I wasn't striking a balance when I thought those things, I was entirely kidding myself that things would get better, when all of the signs pointed towards them getting worse, and all of the outcomes proved that they had.

 

That bloke was criticising the Sammy based on his preconceived notions of shitness based on previous performances (and those of his brother) not on what was actually a top quality performance.  He wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt.  No point giving him the benefit of the doubt cos he's been shit whenever he's played before.  I'd call that unfair.

 

It's not about looking hard enough for something to spin positively.  There are tens of thousands of words written on here about what he does wrong.  What's the harm in saying "well actually...." when there's an opposite view to be given.

[JH]

I don't defend Pardew, but he's not to blame at all for anything.

[Happy Face]

 

 

Are you saying Pardew doesn't have one redeemable feature?  He's learned nothing?  Corrected no mistakes?

 

You expose yourself as an unthinking dimwit if so.

 

 

To be honest I think somebody who defends something he doesn't seem to like is odd.

 

Now to your questions, I don't think he has many redeemable features, he's handled Cabaye and Coloccini wanting away quite well but I would expect most managers to have handled both the same way.

 

As for learning, he probably has but he's just as likely to repeat mistakes as he's done so many times.

 

That was what was especially disappointing in the Hull game.  Just about everything I've praised about us improving since January was thrown out of the window as we fell apart completely.

 

I was glad to see him at least say he was as angry about it as i was, it suggests he'll keep pushing us to play on the ground with real support for Cisse (or whichever striker plays up top.)

[Mick]

 

That bloke was criticising the Sammy based on his preconceived notions of shitness based on previous performances (and those of his brother) not on what was actually a top quality performance.  He wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt.  No point giving him the benefit of the doubt cos he's been s*** whenever he's played before.  I'd call that unfair.

 

It's not about looking hard enough for something to spin positively.  There are tens of thousands of words written on here about what he does wrong.  What's the harm in saying "well actually...." when there's an opposite view to be given.

 

A bloke unfairly having a go at our players last night has nothing to do with Pardew being fairly pulled apart.

[Mick]

 

 

That was what was especially disappointing in the Hull game.  Just about everything I've praised about us improving since January was thrown out of the window as we fell apart completely.

 

I was glad to see him at least say he was as angry about it as i was, it suggests he'll keep pushing us to play on the ground with real support for Cisse (or whichever striker plays up top.)

 

The Hull game and the Man City game were both typical of last season, so far we're no different.  I'm glad he was angry but I don't think that will make a difference because he's part of the problem.  The only way his anger will help is if it's with himself rather than with others because he needs to look inwardly to recognise what we do wrong.

 

We're far too negative and we've seen that all before.  You blame the players for that but not when we do things wrong as a team.

 

We were positive last night and hopefully that's a sign of things to come, it is just as likely to be a one off against a team from a lower division, we'll see.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We were improved against Hull at the start, I thought we were going to murder them. Then we started making errors, they got the momentum and Pardew made some mistakes with subs.

[Guest firetotheworks]

He doesn't defend him, he's just cleverer than all of us because he can see that if we get rid of Pardew we'll just get someone worse. So even though he's no Pardew fan, he'll tell you why you should be.

 

I've noticed a few claiming that they don't defend him, while defending him.

 

Are you saying Pardew doesn't have one redeemable feature?  He's learned nothing?  Corrected no mistakes?

 

You expose yourself as an unthinking dimwit if so.

 

There was a bloke sat behind me last night, spent the whole game laying into our players, calling them maggots, bellends, pricks and cocks.  Marveaux and Sammy got it in the neck most.  He was droning on and on constantly about our lack of width.  I am no fan of Sammy or Marveaux, but I would defy anyone to argue that this man was not a f***ing c***, unable to judge a performance as it plays out in front of him.  To appreciate the good and criticise the bad.  Strike a balance.

 

What has that bloke got to do with ANYTHING? There's a difference between striking a balance and levelling the playing field.

 

If I looked hard enough, I'd be able to find some redeeming qualities in some of the worst managers in the PL history, there are always ways to look at things in order to make people seem better. It's like getting 'punctual' in your report card, it means nothing. It's just there, taking up unnecessary space, making things look balanced in quantity and not quality.

 

As far as I can see, that's exactly what you're doing. Putting a positive spin on things that to the majority are viewed as either negative, or a given. You could say that that's the product of a pessimistic outlook, but I would argue that a lot of people, myself included have gone through the same way of thinking as you for varying periods of time, until they've come to the conclusion that, actually, it was all evidence upon evidence of Pardew being s***.

 

Going back to your way of thinking now, when I've already drawn a patient and defined conclusion that Pardew isn't good enough makes no sense. I wasn't striking a balance when I thought those things, I was entirely kidding myself that things would get better, when all of the signs pointed towards them getting worse, and all of the outcomes proved that they had.

 

That bloke was criticising the Sammy based on his preconceived notions of shitness based on previous performances (and those of his brother) not on what was actually a top quality performance.  He wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt.  No point giving him the benefit of the doubt cos he's been s*** whenever he's played before.  I'd call that unfair.

 

It's not about looking hard enough for something to spin positively.  There are tens of thousands of words written on here about what he does wrong.  What's the harm in saying "well actually...." when there's an opposite view to be given.

 

Aye, but that's neither about Pardew, nor by anyone on here. That's irrelevant to this.

[Happy Face]

 

That bloke was criticising the Sammy based on his preconceived notions of shitness based on previous performances (and those of his brother) not on what was actually a top quality performance.  He wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt.  No point giving him the benefit of the doubt cos he's been s*** whenever he's played before.  I'd call that unfair.

 

It's not about looking hard enough for something to spin positively.  There are tens of thousands of words written on here about what he does wrong.  What's the harm in saying "well actually...." when there's an opposite view to be given.

 

A bloke unfairly having a go at our players last night has nothing to do with Pardew being fairly pulled apart.

 

I don't think it's fair to say Pardew is still plugging away at the same Plan a he was trying at christmas, that his vision is hoofball, that the first 10 games last year were unacceptable, or 10 or so after the new year, or that advancing to Europa QF should not impact on the league performance or that he should necessarily succeed despite whatever injury troubles he's had, or that we're regularly embarrassed at home etc.

 

It's comments like that which I have responded to.

[Guest firetotheworks]

 

That bloke was criticising the Sammy based on his preconceived notions of shitness based on previous performances (and those of his brother) not on what was actually a top quality performance.  He wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt.  No point giving him the benefit of the doubt cos he's been s*** whenever he's played before.  I'd call that unfair.

 

It's not about looking hard enough for something to spin positively.  There are tens of thousands of words written on here about what he does wrong.  What's the harm in saying "well actually...." when there's an opposite view to be given.

 

A bloke unfairly having a go at our players last night has nothing to do with Pardew being fairly pulled apart.

 

I don't think it's fair to say Pardew is still plugging away at the same Plan a he was trying at christmas, that his vision is hoofball, that the first 10 games last year were unacceptable, or 10 or so after the new year, or that advancing to Europa QF should not impact on the league performance or that he should necessarily succeed despite whatever injury troubles he's had, or that we're regularly embarrassed at home etc.

 

It's comments like that which I have responded to.

 

That's quite a lot of smoke without fire that you're trying to deny for someone that isn't Pardew's biggest fan. I'd be surprised to meet someone that defends him more than you. You're surely in the top 10% of Pardew fans by default.

[Mick]

We were improved against Hull at the start, I thought we were going to murder them. Then we started making errors, they got the momentum and Pardew made some mistakes with subs.

 

We did the same at times last season when we were able to look decent for short periods of games.