Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The club being frugal = the club saving money. Unless he's constantly embezzling from the club. And AFAIK we have a £9m striker up front. Anyway. My point is, it hasn't all been 100% terrible and in some respects the club is in better nick than it was. Back on topic: what the fresh hell is going on with JFK. Big big big big big issue now for me is what does Carr do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loki679 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 You're a tugboat if you think his tenure has been anything other than shocking for us. He's done some good things but they're massively outweighed by the non stop stream of shite he serves up. Trimmed the wage bill vs hired JFK twice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Does it matter how much money they save as long as they continually throw grenades at the good work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I get corralled into sounding more pro-Ashley on here than I am because the general consensus is so unanimously and vociferously against him... I think the club's financial recovery is the number 1 important thing by a long way. I attach more weight to that than anything else because without that you're doomed (as we were, sooner or later, had Shepherd stuck around). So for me, financial recovery and stability vs lots and lots of other shitty things, makes things kind of even. That's probably the main reason I look at the overall picture and go 'meh, not doing too badly' and a lot of other people look at it and hate him. I think good transfer policy + getting richer = ending up doing pretty well, in the vast majority of cases, so I don't worry too much if we have a downturn or if Ashley does something weird that alienates the entire fanbase. That's also why I get exasperated when people get all carried away and revolt - because my reaction is always that if we just ignore his daftness, stay supportive and let him run the club like a profitable business for a bit, when he does eventually fuck off we'll probably be in a good position to move forward. This time is different because it threatens one of those two tenets I think is all-important, the level-headed transfer policy. It's not just an unpopular decision or a tasteless one or a weird one, it looks like bad business too. So I AM getting a bit carried away with it, whereas slapping some paint on the stadium roof I don't give a flying f**k about, as long as we're not throwing money down the drain and heading for oblivion. Does that not make some vague kind of sense to anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Financial recovery doesn't do any good, however, if we lurch from self-imposed crisis to crisis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I get corralled into sounding more pro-Ashley on here than I am because the general consensus is so unanimously and vociferously against him... I think the club's financial recovery is the number 1 important thing by a long way. I attach more weight to that than anything else because without that you're doomed (as we were, sooner or later, had Shepherd stuck around). So for me, financial recovery and stability vs lots and lots of other shitty things, makes things kind of even. That's probably the main reason I look at the overall picture and go 'meh, not doing too badly' and a lot of other people look at it and hate him. I think good transfer policy + getting richer = ending up doing pretty well, in the vast majority of cases, so I don't worry too much if we have a downturn or if Ashley does something weird that alienates the entire fanbase. That's also why I get exasperated when people get all carried away and revolt - because my reaction is always that if we just ignore his daftness, stay supportive and let him run the club like a profitable business for a bit, when he does eventually fuck off we'll probably be in a good position to move forward. This time is different because it threatens one of those two tenets I think is all-important, the level-headed transfer policy. So I AM getting a bit carried away with it, whereas slapping some paint on the stadium roof I don't give a flying f**k about, as long as we're not throwing money down the drain and heading for oblivion. Does that not make some vague kind of sense to anyone? It does. But apart from one good season, there has been a barrage of horrible decisions. They may not necessarily be aimed at riling us up, but at best, they show a great deal of contempt for the fanbase. This man needs to fuck off, for this shit will continue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Trimming the wage bill, coming straight back up, transforming the transfer policy, sorting out the club's finances, finishing 5th, signing a lot of bargains Think you've been a little selective there haven't you. Come on One of the reasons we came up is because we couldn't shift on the highest earners, ie Colo, Enrique , Barton, Nolan etc. Even Smith. And he was the bloke who gave all of those, save Barton I believe, the high wage contracts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loki679 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Trimming the wage bill, coming straight back up, transforming the transfer policy, sorting out the club's finances, finishing 5th, signing a lot of bargains Think you've been a little selective there haven't you. Come on One of the reasons we came up is because we couldn't shift on the highest earners, ie Colo, Enrique , Barton, Nolan etc. Even Smith. And he was the bloke who gave all of those, save Barton I believe, the high wage contracts. That's not true. They stayed because Mike farted unicorns and rainbows at them. Joe invented rainbows btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuy_O Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 He's an arsehole im sorry. He may have us on sound financial footing but it's hard to appreciate that when his ambition is none existent. Plus basically since he's took over, we have been a laughing stock in world football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I get corralled into sounding more pro-Ashley on here than I am because the general consensus is so unanimously and vociferously against him... I think the club's financial recovery is the number 1 important thing by a long way. I attach more weight to that than anything else because without that you're doomed (as we were, sooner or later, had Shepherd stuck around). So for me, financial recovery and stability vs lots and lots of other shitty things, makes things kind of even. That's probably the main reason I look at the overall picture and go 'meh, not doing too badly' and a lot of other people look at it and hate him. I think good transfer policy + getting richer = ending up doing pretty well, in the vast majority of cases, so I don't worry too much if we have a downturn or if Ashley does something weird that alienates the entire fanbase. That's also why I get exasperated when people get all carried away and revolt - because my reaction is always that if we just ignore his daftness, stay supportive and let him run the club like a profitable business for a bit, when he does eventually fuck off we'll probably be in a good position to move forward. This time is different because it threatens one of those two tenets I think is all-important, the level-headed transfer policy. So I AM getting a bit carried away with it, whereas slapping some paint on the stadium roof I don't give a flying f**k about, as long as we're not throwing money down the drain and heading for oblivion. Does that not make some vague kind of sense to anyone? It does. But apart from one good season, there has been a barrage of horrible decisions. They may not necessarily be aimed at riling us up, but at best, they show a great deal of contempt for the fanbase. This man needs to fuck off, for this shit will continue. Fully agree, he's been utterly terrible with the fans and seems to go out of his way to alienate everyone at times. I just don't care that much, as I say, as long as we're financially upwardly mobile and make sensible transfers for the next few years. On one level (and in a very small way) I kind of enjoy the fact that he clearly doesn't give a fuck as long as he thinks he's running the club right, because the last thing we'd want is a marquee-signing politician like Shepherd in charge. But yeah, Ashley should give more attention to cherishing his supporters and I'm always shocked at the extent to which he doesn't. It's not on. But if you say that the quality of the next owner we get is basically random (i.e; could be a terrible asset-stripping bastard, or could be an absolute legend who propels us to greatness) and then you offer me a chance between Ashley leaving now, and leaving in 5 years, I'd say yes please to the 5 years. Or I would definitely have said that prior to JFK coming back. Because 5 years of Carr transfers and frugal business will serve us very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I get corralled into sounding more pro-Ashley on here than I am because the general consensus is so unanimously and vociferously against him... I think the club's financial recovery is the number 1 important thing by a long way. I attach more weight to that than anything else because without that you're doomed (as we were, sooner or later, had Shepherd stuck around). So for me, financial recovery and stability vs lots and lots of other shitty things, makes things kind of even. That's probably the main reason I look at the overall picture and go 'meh, not doing too badly' and a lot of other people look at it and hate him. I think good transfer policy + getting richer = ending up doing pretty well, in the vast majority of cases, so I don't worry too much if we have a downturn or if Ashley does something weird that alienates the entire fanbase. That's also why I get exasperated when people get all carried away and revolt - because my reaction is always that if we just ignore his daftness, stay supportive and let him run the club like a profitable business for a bit, when he does eventually fuck off we'll probably be in a good position to move forward. This time is different because it threatens one of those two tenets I think is all-important, the level-headed transfer policy. So I AM getting a bit carried away with it, whereas slapping some paint on the stadium roof I don't give a flying f**k about, as long as we're not throwing money down the drain and heading for oblivion. Does that not make some vague kind of sense to anyone? It does. But apart from one good season, there has been a barrage of horrible decisions. They may not necessarily be aimed at riling us up, but at best, they show a great deal of contempt for the fanbase. This man needs to fuck off, for this shit will continue. Fully agree, he's been utterly terrible with the fans and seems to go out of his way to alienate everyone at times. I just don't care that much, as I say, as long as we're financially upwardly mobile and make sensible transfers for the next few years. On one level (and in a very small way) I kind of enjoy the fact that he clearly doesn't give a fuck as long as he thinks he's running the club right, because the last thing we'd want is a marquee-signing politician like Shepherd in charge. But yeah, Ashley should give more attention to cherishing his supporters and I'm always shocked at the extent to which he doesn't. It's not on. But if you say that the quality of the next owner we get is basically random (i.e; could be a terrible asset-stripping bastard, or could be an absolute legend who propels us to greatness) and then you offer me a chance between Ashley leaving now, and leaving in 5 years, I'd say yes please to the 5 years. Or I would definitely have said that prior to JFK coming back. Because 5 years of Carr transfers and frugal business will serve us very well. In what way , may I ask? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmk Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I don't understand how getting us relegated entirely through shambolic decisions of his own has made us 'financially upwardly mobile'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 You're getting at a lack of ambition right? I understand that and again, we have a difference in opinion here perhaps because I'd be quite happy with a slow, Everton-like ascent overall, building towards being in contention for CL spots on a regular basis. I think that's just the way football is now, and if you demand an all-out effort to win trophies you might as well be demanding that the owner flip a coin for the future of the club. For our average league position to improve by a few in the next few years would be a decent achievement. Sad but true. Why would I take the 5 years? Because I think we'd be likely to be in a better position financially after 5 years of Ashley, and that, in the end, translates directly to success on the pitch. It's not ideal to have an owner who alienates fans, does daft things and hires his mates but I get the impression he will stop at nothing to make the club a commercially successful organisation and right now, after the last 10 - 15 years, that is the best thing that could possibly happen. Let him keep being a twat, just make sure that over the next few years our bank balance improves, our squad gets deeper, we deal well in the market and so on and so on, and then he can go to hell if he wants. And for fuck's sake keep hold of Graham Carr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I don't understand how getting us relegated entirely through shambolic decisions of his own has made us 'financially upwardly mobile'. I don't think it was as you say. We had been in awful nick for years and it was going to come home to roost in the end. But clearly we're in better financial condition now than we were before we were relegated, and very much better than pre-Ashley when we were mortgaged to the jacksie. Look at the wage bill and the value of our squad for one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 not that I'm absolving Ashley of blame of course Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David28 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Great words by Shearer on bbc. Think he got it spot on there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 You're getting at a lack of ambition right? I understand that and again, we have a difference in opinion here perhaps because I'd be quite happy with a slow, Everton-like ascent overall, building towards being in contention for CL spots on a regular basis. I think that's just the way football is now, and if you demand an all-out effort to win trophies you might as well be demanding that the owner flip a coin for the future of the club. For our average league position to improve by a few in the next few years would be a decent achievement. Sad but true. Why would I take the 5 years? Because I think we'd be likely to be in a better position financially after 5 years of Ashley, and that, in the end, translates directly to success on the pitch. It's not ideal to have an owner who alienates fans, does daft things and hires his mates but I get the impression he will stop at nothing to make the club a commercially successful organisation and right now, after the last 10 - 15 years, that is the best thing that could possibly happen. Let him keep being a twat, just make sure that over the next few years our bank balance improves, our squad gets deeper, we deal well in the market and so on and so on, and then he can go to hell if he wants. And for fuck's sake keep hold of Graham Carr. Thanks for the answer, so eloquently put. But with all due respect I can't see the path you map out taking shape with Pardew and Kinnear in senior managerial positions at the club. Not just that, if you get a successful brand on the pitch, then the commercial aspect will always follow, but not so the case the other way round. I think we've got a fair squad and with a bit of depth added and a managerial upgrade, then there wouldn't be any reason why we couldn't be successful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 You're getting at a lack of ambition right? I understand that and again, we have a difference in opinion here perhaps because I'd be quite happy with a slow, Everton-like ascent overall, building towards being in contention for CL spots on a regular basis. I think that's just the way football is now, and if you demand an all-out effort to win trophies you might as well be demanding that the owner flip a coin for the future of the club. For our average league position to improve by a few in the next few years would be a decent achievement. Sad but true. Why would I take the 5 years? Because I think we'd be likely to be in a better position financially after 5 years of Ashley, and that, in the end, translates directly to success on the pitch. It's not ideal to have an owner who alienates fans, does daft things and hires his mates but I get the impression he will stop at nothing to make the club a commercially successful organisation and right now, after the last 10 - 15 years, that is the best thing that could possibly happen. Let him keep being a twat, just make sure that over the next few years our bank balance improves, our squad gets deeper, we deal well in the market and so on and so on, and then he can go to hell if he wants. And for fuck's sake keep hold of Graham Carr. Thanks for the answer, so eloquently put. But with all due respect I can't see the path you map out taking shape with Pardew and Kinnear in senior managerial positions at the club. Not just that, if you get a successful brand on the pitch, then the commercial aspect will always follow, but not so the case the other way round. I think we've got a fair squad and with a bit of depth added and a managerial upgrade, then there wouldn't be any reason why we couldn't be successful. Pardew... meh. Kinnear in and Carr out.... no. I agree the other appointments have been shaky, but I don't think any of them apart from maybe JFK will have a devastating long term impact. I was very nonplussed when Pardew became manager and his performance has been very average but I can still imagine that he might improve. The squad overperformed two seasons ago, underperformed last season... again, meh. It might perform averagely next year. I'm not indifferent to our form - I hate it when we play shit and lose, not least when I've just wasted a load of energy defending Ashley and co on here - but I accept that we'll have good seasons and bad seasons and I don't think that's all that relevant to the reasons I have for not necessarily wanting to get rid of Ashley. For me it really is 80% about, please can we have a club that has some money and a deep squad with some decent players in it, and not be a Freddie Shepherd nightmare. It's a shame Ashley is making such a tit of himself and everyone else but be careful what you wish for... I dunno. I'm very wary of coming over all pro-Ashley on here but to present a moderate point of view in the face of all the bile and hate towards him on here, you're always going to end up defending him. I wish we had a better chairman, a better manager and most certainly a better Director of Football, but I can at least see some of the positives with what we do have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 JFK will destroy all of the good work before the season starts. The cunt is the football equivalent of a fucking mass extinction event, which seems to fit perfectly with his Triassic views on football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 What has Ashley done well apart from employing a good scout and backing his judgement, and how do you explain him seemingly not seeing that as the main strength and thoroughly jeopardising it with an absolutely barking mad decision? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 there is being moderate and then there is a Neville Chamberlain level of apologism. Ashley's a cunt. He just hired a cunt to be his eyes and ears. Another cunt just walked, likely because the even bigger cunt just hired now looms over him. Under all of them is yet another useless cunt who is being completely undermined by all of these cunts above him. And in the end, we pay the fucking price for this Machiavellian cuntishness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 What has Ashley done well apart from employing a good scout and backing his judgement, and how do you explain him seemingly not seeing that as the main strength and thoroughly jeopardising it with an absolutely barking mad decision? It's not just about what he's done well - explore every possible revenue stream (albeit to a fault), employing a good scout and backing his judgment and refusing to bow to pressure to overspend, pay off the club debt (that's not a skill or anything, but not every chairman would've done it), it's the things he hasn't done badly like mortgage our future. He's prioritised making us into a viable business over just about everything else, which at this point in our history is good. How do I explain him not seeing Carr as the main strength etc etc etc....? I don't. As I've said a few times, I think it's a totally daft decision and the first move of Ashley's that I can't in any way defend. I agree, Carr is the crown jewel. I'm all about bank balance + transfer policy = you will do good, and Carr is key to that. I think it's barking mad to piss off Carr and I think it's completely insane to employ Kinnear. You seem to think I'm determined to defend Ashley no matter what, but I'm really not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 What has Ashley done well apart from employing a good scout and backing his judgement, and how do you explain him seemingly not seeing that as the main strength and thoroughly jeopardising it with an absolutely barking mad decision? It's not just about what he's done well - explore every possible revenue stream (albeit to a fault), employing a good scout and backing his judgment and refusing to bow to pressure to overspend, pay off the club debt (that's not a skill or anything, but not every chairman would've done it), it's the things he hasn't done badly like mortgage our future. He's prioritised making us into a viable business over just about everything else, which at this point in our history is good. How do I explain him not seeing Carr as the main strength etc etc etc....? I don't. As I've said a few times, I think it's a totally daft decision and the first move of Ashley's that I can't in any way defend. I agree, Carr is the crown jewel. I'm all about bank balance + transfer policy = you will do good, and Carr is key to that. I think it's barking mad to piss off Carr and I think it's completely insane to employ Kinnear. You seem to think I'm determined to defend Ashley no matter what, but it should be obvious that I'm not. Well it is just about what he's done well, since that's the question I asked. I'd argue that the only major thing he's done well is recognising he had a good scout and basing our transfer policy around that. That goes hand in hand with the financial stuff since we largely only spend what we bring in (at best) on good-value players from the Continent. There is no excuse for the steps backwards we've made in terms of other sources of revenue, such as commercial, matchday, etc. Regarding your first paragraph, it could well be argued that's all for his own benefit. He paid off the debt to begin with because he had the cash. He's started taking the money back, £11m last year. That will continue happening I'd imagine. I don't see what the obsession is with the financial stuff when it's seen us going backwards in many respects. There can be a happy medium you know, and I don't understand a football fan who wanks over spreadsheets or the idea that we could be as big as Everton. Regarding your last point, I do think you'll defend him (almost) no matter what, it doesn't matter if you're coming back on here with a more softly-softly, moderate tone, you're actually pretty much a militant Ashley supporter from everything I've read from you. I know not one person who's anywhere near as big a fan of his as you are. Top and bottom of it is that we haven't progressed as a football club and the last 5 years have been littered with humilation as an NUFC fan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Explored every possible revenue stream. He has vastly reduced our commercial revenue from the level Shepherd had it at (despite a colossal rise in overseas interest in the PL during the same period) and replaced 75% of the matchday advertising boards with free ads for his shitty company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Mags Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 So is this cunt dead yet, or what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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