The Managerial Merry Go Round™ - Ivan Juric to Southampton

[Froggy]

It's Bob Bradley all over again

 

It's an objective fact that he did extremely well in Norway, sadly he couldn't replicate that elsewhere. I am stating exactly that point as well, as even though OGS did well here it does in no way equate he has to do well in a bigger league, just that it's a shit argument to say he's done nothing in the past. He'd done more than Pep when Pep got the Barca gig, for instance. I don't necessarily think he's done enough at all to warrant getting the Man Utd gig bar being a former player. But when Shearer was here, people wanted Shearer to stay on, and all Shearer had done at that stage was being a pundit - so I'm just annoyed at our own double standards when it's obvious why Man Utd fans want OGS to stay and it's fair-ish that he got the chance at the job.

 

I'm in no way saying he's a great manager for Man Utd (or for anyone else other than Molde) or the right answer for them, just that I understand why he has the job and that I understand why Man Utd fans aren't up in arms as he's done a lot to change the entire toxic atmosphere at the club. I fully understand why a Man Utd fan at this stage would prefer to stick with OGS rather than switch to Poch, even though I personally would choose Poch.

 

This is a fantastic post.

[Ben]

But did he not do the steadying of the ship as a caretaker? The board should have made the change to an elite manager to move them forward and not pick a bloke on sentiment and because Rio Ferdinand waved a contract about on BT sport, the football world is full of failed caretaker managers.

[Kaizero]

But did he not do the steadying of the ship as a caretaker? The board should have made the change to an elite manager to move them forward and not pick a bloke on sentiment and because Rio Ferdinand waved a contract about on BT sport, the football world is full of failed caretaker managers.

 

Again, it's a flawed argument as Pep Guardiola only had a promotion to his name when he was appointed Barcelona manager. Klopp got the Mainz gig after playing for them for 11 years. Pochettino got the Espanyol gig without the UEFA coaching license after having been the manager of their women's side. You have to start somewhere, and OGS actually had honors to his name - albeit in a lesser league, so what makes his appointment more shocking than those, for instance?

[joeyt]

Because OGS failed miserably at Cardiff?

[Kaizero]

Because OGS failed miserably at Cardiff?

 

And went on to do good things again at Molde, and let's not forget he started his managerial career with a great spell as Man Utd Reserves coach - where key players such as underperforming Pogba loved playing for him. Sir Bobby was sacked from Fulham with a 16.67% win rate. Where's the rule saying you can't get another chance because you failed one time during a completely different set of circumstances? OGS has the third highest win percentage in Man Utd history, nothing about him failing miserably at Cardiff changes that fact. The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

[Ben]

Because OGS failed miserably at Cardiff?

 

And went on to do good things again at Molde, and let's not forget he started his managerial career with a great spell as Man Utd Reserves coach - where key players such as underperforming Pogba loved playing for him. Sir Bobby was sacked from Fulham with a 16.67% win rate. Where's the rule saying you can't get another chance because you failed one time during a completely different set of circumstances? OGS has the third highest win percentage in Man Utd history, nothing about him failing miserably at Cardiff changes that fact. The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

I don't necessarily think the arguments against him are idiotic, however you make your point very well.

[joeyt]

I'm probably not factoring in the huge effect of no crowds at Old Trafford

[Collage]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

[Kaizero]

How are the arguments made purely on emotion? Because you don’t agree? That’s nonsense. Same as comparing him to SBR. Just because people think he’s not very good doesn’t mean it’s because they are purely acting out of emotion lol

 

Third highest win rate in Man Utd managerial history = not very good

Changing the toxic nature at Man Utd (as told by fans and players) = not very good

Having toppled an essentially changed the nature of a one-team league with much lesser budgets = no experience and no playing style

 

He's started badly in the league this season, so none of the above matters. Not sayin he hasn't started badly in the league this season, he has, but he still has the third highest win ratio of any Man Utd manager in their history and has had them on some of their best winning streaks in their history. He clearly works much on his tactics and aren't working on "throwing eleven players on the pitch hoping their quality make the team win". He's failed at tactics many times, but he's doing different things to counter the opponents. Over the course of one week he played three different tactics and won three matches, two against opponents perceived to be better than them at this stage in time.

 

The SBR comparison was due to joeyt saying he shouldn't get a shot at Man Utd because he failed at Cardiff. That equivalence means SBR shouldn't have gotten another chance at a club because he failed at Fulham.

 

Other arguments are saying he shouldn't have been given the job, and then using examples of managers that should be better fits for Man Utd when said examples started their own careers with less top level managerial experience than OGS.

 

It's just dumb arguments when you look at objective facts, just look at joeyts rebuttal of my arguments by jumping on a stupid thing Froggy said rather than the actual arguments. Hence why I believe they're emotional opinions. I'm not saying they 100% are, but I legit dislike OGS, I support Rosenborg in Norway and I would love for OGS to fail. But as I said, I dislike stupid arguments more than any one person. Discussing OGS at Man Utd with anyone that doesn't follow Man Utd is like discussing the downsides of Donald Trump with someone that only watches Fox News, they've made up their mind and no objective fact can alter that even when it counters their own arguments.

 

I'm fully open to being proven wrong, in fact, I'd welcome it. It would be a much better feeling looking at OGS and seeing failure than what I am currently seeing. I don't even need much convincing, as I've tried myself already.

[Kaizero]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

 

Absolutely comparable. As much as it disgusts me to say it, Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not their attachment to any one club. Shearer wasn't even a manager at the time, what would your opinion be if Gary Lineker was the one appointed and not Shearer? Would you have wanted Lineker to get the job, or stay? Jaime Redknapp?

 

Pochettino is essentially just as qualified on paper for the Man Utd job as Moyes was. It's a bit of a double standard if you say Moyes shouldn't have gotten the job, yet you think Pochettino should get it when you look at their managerial history up until the point Moyes took over Man Utd, or Pochettino now if he took over tomorrow. Neither have major honors, and their biggest achievements have been building a club that didn't compete much into a team that could compete.

 

The Barcelona job is perhaps the biggest job in football, that went to a reserve team manager.

 

In the end, the manager needs to be a proper fit for a club.

[Collage]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

 

Absolutely comparable. Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not attachment to any one club.

 

You have to be fucking joking, seriously.

 

[Kaizero]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

 

Absolutely comparable. Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not attachment to any one club.

 

You have to be fucking joking, seriously.

 

 

See edit:

 

Absolutely comparable. As much as it disgusts me to say it, Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not their attachment to any one club. Shearer wasn't even a manager at the time, what would your opinion be if Gary Lineker was the one appointed and not Shearer? Would you have wanted Lineker to get the job, or stay? Jaime Redknapp?

 

Pochettino is essentially just as qualified on paper for the Man Utd job as Moyes was. It's a bit of a double standard if you say Moyes shouldn't have gotten the job, yet you think Pochettino should get it when you look at their managerial history up until the point Moyes took over Man Utd, or Pochettino now if he took over tomorrow. Neither have major honors, and their biggest achievements have been building a club that didn't compete much into a team that could compete.

 

The Barcelona job is perhaps the biggest job in football, that went to a reserve team manager.

 

In the end, the manager needs to be a proper fit for a club.

[Froggy]

The most important part that Kaiz has touched on is the atmosphere around the club. The club felt rotten and had done for years until Ole took over. I don't think he's going to take us to league glory, but he has laid foundations that other managers would have struggled to. He is who we needed, and still need right now.

[Manxst]

The most important part that Kaiz has touched on is the atmosphere around the club. The club felt rotten and had done for years until Ole took over. I don't think he's going to take us to league glory, but he has laid foundations that other managers would have struggled to. He is who we needed, and still need right now.

 

Nah. If you’d have got Pep, Klopp, Bielsa or Bruce, you would be scoffing at the thought of Solskjaer.

[Robster]

The most important part that Kaiz has touched on is the atmosphere around the club. The club felt rotten and had done for years until Ole took over. I don't think he's going to take us to league glory, but he has laid foundations that other managers would have struggled to. He is who we needed, and still need right now.

Is that because of him specifically would you say or more that he's simply not LVG/Mourinho?

I think the main part of Roeder's good run here was simply because he wasn't Souness.

[Kaizero]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

 

Absolutely comparable. As much as it disgusts me to say it, Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not their attachment to any one club. Shearer wasn't even a manager at the time, what would your opinion be if Gary Lineker was the one appointed and not Shearer? Would you have wanted Lineker to get the job, or stay? Jaime Redknapp?

 

Pochettino is essentially just as qualified on paper for the Man Utd job as Moyes was. It's a bit of a double standard if you say Moyes shouldn't have gotten the job, yet you think Pochettino should get it when you look at their managerial history up until the point Moyes took over Man Utd, or Pochettino now if he took over tomorrow. Neither have major honors, and their biggest achievements have been building a club that didn't compete much into a team that could compete.

 

The Barcelona job is perhaps the biggest job in football, that went to a reserve team manager.

 

In the end, the manager needs to be a proper fit for a club.

 

Those two things arent comparable at all lol, we were about to go into the championship?

 

Yes? So you wouldn't have wanted us to have appointed an experienced manager to save us at the time rather than a pundit without any coaching badges?

 

The comparison was anyway, as mentioned, with regards to OGS not deserving a second chance at a top job because he failed at Cardiff, which I challenged joeyt on with regards to SBR failing at Fulham - did he deserve a second chance?

 

The Shearer comparison was NUFC fans wanting Shearer to stay on, yet not understanding why Man Utd fans would want OGS to stay on. OGS has, again, the third highest win ratio in Man Utd managerial history and has done well a steadying the ship. He was sentenced to fail before his first match and the appointment ridiculed by anyone not associated with Man Utd, that tells me the opinion is emotionally based. Him delivering results doesn't silence critics either, which means objective facts are being put aside due to a pre-existing opinion and narrative about OGS that won't change.

 

He's doing objectively bad in the league now, but he's four points behind Man City. Why isn't Pep being shouted at due to his horrible league start?

[Froggy]

The most important part that Kaiz has touched on is the atmosphere around the club. The club felt rotten and had done for years until Ole took over. I don't think he's going to take us to league glory, but he has laid foundations that other managers would have struggled to. He is who we needed, and still need right now.

Is that because of him specifically would you say or more that he's simply not LVG/Mourinho?

I think the main part of Roeder's good run here was simply because he wasn't Souness.

 

I can't answer that with any certainty. It could well be the case. Helps that he's a club legend who knows the club inside out and has a positive attitude towards everything. One of the first things he said as boss was, "I'm going to be successful here, and there are players who won't be part of that." He proceeded to start getting rid of deadwood. Fans loved that.

 

As a whole Ole has done very well for reasons myself and Kaiz have mentioned. The league start has been horrible. But it's been the same for City, Arsenal etc. He has time to sort it. Obviously if we're sitting here in December and the league form has continued he's in big trouble such is the nature of the game now. But the majority of Manchester United fans remain behind him. They, unlike others, can see the effect he's had on the club not just with results.

[Manxst]

But SBR ‘failed’ Fulham and then got a job at Ipswich. OGS failed at Cardiff (and possibly did ok at a second rate league with Molde) but then walked into the ‘biggest’ job in the world bar none, allegedly.

[joeyt]

Exactly, I thought it was pretty obvious and goes without saying that going from Norway to Man Utd is a lot different to SBR situation

[Kaizero]

But SBR ‘failed’ Fulham and then got a job at Ipswich. OGS failed at Cardiff (and possibly did ok at a second rate league with Molde) but then walked into the ‘biggest’ job in the world bar none, allegedly.

 

He didn't walk into it, he played for the club long enough to get a testimonial and did well with their reserves in his first managerial role. He's got honors to his name in a league where the team he managed never had won before and it's been notoriously hard to topple a thirty year winning juggernaut and got a team into Europe that had no right to be there, and won the group stage ahead of Ajax, Celtic and Fenerbache. He knows the club, culture and players and the owners clearly wanted to stop a rot.

 

He had tons more rights to that job than Shearer ever has to the manager job with us, and we're the historically eight biggest club in England. Shearer had no coaching badges and was appointed to save us from relegation. Why is it understandable and defendable for us to appoint Shearer, but not for Man Utd to appoint OGS when their club and club culture had been rotting from the inside out after the departure of Ferguson?

 

Keegan and SBR have been our best and most appreciated managers, I believe a lot stems from them actually knowing NUFC and the club and fan culture. As an NUFC fan that lived through SBR and Keegan II, I can't in no way say I don't understand why Man Utd fans support OGS and his appointment. I long for a manager that lives and breathes NUFC.

 

I'm not saying I believe he should have gotten the job over perhaps more qualified managers, but someone saying it's not understandable why he got it or why Man Utd supporters back him is hard for me to grasp.

[Kaizero]

Exactly, I thought it was pretty obvious and goes without saying that going from Norway to Man Utd is a lot different to SBR situation

 

It does not, please do actually counter my points rather than state opinion as fact. I am open to changing my mind. At this point there's been no actual counter-arguments.

[triggs]

Managers get jobs they aren't qualified for all the time tbf

[Collage]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

 

Absolutely comparable. As much as it disgusts me to say it, Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not their attachment to any one club. Shearer wasn't even a manager at the time, what would your opinion be if Gary Lineker was the one appointed and not Shearer? Would you have wanted Lineker to get the job, or stay? Jaime Redknapp?

 

Pochettino is essentially just as qualified on paper for the Man Utd job as Moyes was. It's a bit of a double standard if you say Moyes shouldn't have gotten the job, yet you think Pochettino should get it when you look at their managerial history up until the point Moyes took over Man Utd, or Pochettino now if he took over tomorrow. Neither have major honors, and their biggest achievements have been building a club that didn't compete much into a team that could compete.

 

The Barcelona job is perhaps the biggest job in football, that went to a reserve team manager.

 

In the end, the manager needs to be a proper fit for a club.

 

Look, if you think Mourinho to OGS and Kinnear to Shearer is a good comparison, there’s nothing more I can say really. It’s just ridiculous.

 

I’d take Lineker or Redknapp over Kinnear, yes. I’d take pretty much anybody over him. How is this relevant?

 

I haven’t mentioned Pochettino.

[Kaizero]

Exactly, I thought it was pretty obvious and goes without saying that going from Norway to Man Utd is a lot different to SBR situation

 

It does not, please do actually counter my points rather than state opinion as fact. I am open to changing my mind. At this point there's been no actual counter-arguments.

 

Fine I'll counter it. Jobs at clubs like Manchester United are usually reserved for elite pedigree managers, thats how big clubs stay big, they appoint the best. You're talking about a club that has expectations to win the PL, season in, season out. Yes they havent been near it for a while but thats not the point. Clubs going into relegtaion (Us) don't appoint elite managers, as evidenced by JFK, so having Shearer come in is not really a big stretch or out of the norm. So it is pretty different in almost every way you look at it. If say Fulham had appointed OGS it wouldn't seem weird at all.

 

Explain appointments such as Arsene Wenger (Arsenal), Pep Guardiola (Barcelona), Tito Villanueva (Barcelona), Frank Lampard (Chelsea), Roberto di Matteo (Chelsea), Zinedine Zidane (Real Madrid), Bernd Schuster (Real Madrid), Juande Ramos (Real Madrid), David Moyes (Manchester United), Andre Villas-Boas (Chelsea), Antonio Conte (Juventus)... I can go on, what makes OGS to Man Utd different? Some of these have less honors and experience to their name than OGS did? Why didn't Barca or Real fans throw their toys out of the pram when they appointed Pep or Zidane since top clubs only appoint already established top managers and attachment to club or experience in their reserves or youth levels have nothing to say? Obviously it would be extremely weird if Man City appointed Pep directly from Barcas B-Team before he got the Barca job, he has no attachment to the club and no honors as a manager that should equate him being given that job. When he was given the Barca job, it was not weird, due to his actual attachment to the club. Same goes for Zidane coming in from the Castilla job.

 

Would it be out of the norm if we at the time we appointed Shearer, appointed Lineker instead? Attachment to the club is my argument, of course we should understand why Man Utd want OGS as their manager.

[Kaizero]

The arguments against him are idiotic and fueled by dislike/emotion rather than objective stats and facts, which I dislike more than I dislike OGS.

 

No. The Man U job is one of the top 3-5 in football. David Moyes shouldn’t have gotten it, he wasn’t qualified. The same goes for Solskjaer.

 

Shearer took over from Joe Kinnear And we knew that was the road we were heading down again. Of course we wanted Shearer to stay. Not comparable.

 

Absolutely comparable. As much as it disgusts me to say it, Joe Kinnear was on paper much more qualified than Alan Shearer to manage Newcastle United if you look at their managerial history and not their attachment to any one club. Shearer wasn't even a manager at the time, what would your opinion be if Gary Lineker was the one appointed and not Shearer? Would you have wanted Lineker to get the job, or stay? Jaime Redknapp?

 

Pochettino is essentially just as qualified on paper for the Man Utd job as Moyes was. It's a bit of a double standard if you say Moyes shouldn't have gotten the job, yet you think Pochettino should get it when you look at their managerial history up until the point Moyes took over Man Utd, or Pochettino now if he took over tomorrow. Neither have major honors, and their biggest achievements have been building a club that didn't compete much into a team that could compete.

 

The Barcelona job is perhaps the biggest job in football, that went to a reserve team manager.

 

In the end, the manager needs to be a proper fit for a club.

 

Look, if you think Mourinho to OGS and Kinnear to Shearer is a good comparison, there’s nothing more I can say really. It’s just ridiculous.

 

I’d take Lineker or Redknapp over Kinnear, yes. I’d take pretty much anybody over him. How is this relevant?

 

I haven’t mentioned Pochettino.

 

You're (I assume) intentionally misinterpreting my comparisons. Zidane following Benitez then? Why is that different to OGS following Mourinho? We as NUFC fans inherently dislike OGS due to his horrid behavior against us. We don't have that dislike for Zidane, for instance.

 

It's not over Kinnear, it's how you'd react if they were appointed following Kinnear (and not Shearer). You'd naturally would have wanted us to appoint a manager with experience, not a pundit. Yet, due to us loving Shearer, we welcomed him as a savior, when he did not even have any coaching badges and supported him - yet say OGS shouldn't be at Man Utd when he's more qualified for the Man Utd job than Shearer was for the NUFC job. We'd be absolutely livid if they'd appointed Lineker or Jaime Redknapp, yet om paper they're just as qualified as Shearer with their main jobs since they retired being pundits.

 

I brought up Pochettino to make a new point and comparison to back my original point in our discussion.