manchester united

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, The Prophet said:

Capology is nonsense.

 

Both Stefan Borson and Kieran Maguire have Tweeted about it recently. The annual accounts pretty much debunk it alone.

 

Capology doesn't claim to know the wages exactly though. In their words it uses "a network of insiders directly involved in contract negotiations as well as news publications around the world." 

 

It also uses reports from the likes of Ornstein, Whitwell etc. to make educated guesses on what the salary is.

 

It's as strong a resource as any when trying to figure out what players are paid.

[Froggy]

Once again, people use it in their arguments when it suits them. I've just been consistent with it is all.

[Froggy]

3 minutes ago, PRL said:

But they’ll want 5 year contracts on similar wages wherever they go, certainly sounds that way with Sancho turning down Chelsea and Rashford having 3 years left and sending out similar msging. That’s either close to or in excess of £100m total packages for each player. I just cannot see any club outside Saudi (or maybe MLS with a heavy weighting to commercial / image variables) being willing to offer that. If Sancho goes back to Dortmund for example it’ll need heavy subsidies or basically a free transfer with a write off of what you still owe them. 
 

Suppose we have the summer to see what happens, but I think £60m with clubs taking them onto balance sheet with no subsidy or pay off on the manc side would represent incredible business for you and doesn’t feel likely. 

 

You may be right and you may be wrong. Like you said, we'll need to wait and see.

 

I would be fairly confident in saying that we'll have enough outgoings this summer from free agents and transfers to cover or come close to covering the amortisation of new signings.

[Kid Icarus]

It was used for you because you love it. It wouldn't have been used otherwise, because it's clearly wrong.

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

It was used for you because you love it. It wouldn't have been used otherwise, because it's clearly wrong.

 

I found out about Capology on this forum.  So you're wrong again.

 

The only time people started talking negatively about Capology was when it said Kelly was getting £150,000, because it didn't suit the narrative.

[The Prophet]

To be fair, Froggy is right. I wish I'd been paid everytime someone has peddled Matt Targett's Capology wage.

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, Froggy said:

 

I found out about Capology on this forum.  So you're wrong again.

 

The only time people started talking negatively about Capology was when it said Kelly was getting £150,000, because it didn't suit the narrative.

 

Didn't realise that means you don't love it. And I'm rarely wrong, you know that.

 

I think it was when it had Targett on something daft and obviously wrong, but I've genuinely only ever seen you and possibly TCD use it as something worth citing, to me it looks about as reliable as transfermarkt's player value estimate.

[The Prophet]

Pet hates are that and using FBRef as a means of assessing how good a player is. Kill iz.

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

Didn't realise that means you don't love it. And I'm rarely wrong, you know that.

 

I think it was when it had Targett on something daft and obviously wrong, but I've genuinely only ever seen you and possibly TCD use it as something worth citing, to me it looks about as reliable as transfermarkt's player value estimate.

 

 Love that.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think it's a crystal clear view into financials or anything. It simply uses insiders/journalists/reporters etc. to formulate an estimate of what the salary is. I don't love it, but I think it's a reasonable resource. 

 

Lumping me in with TCD has me considering my life choices now though.

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, The Prophet said:

Pet hates are that and using FBRef as a means of assessing how good a player is. Kill iz.

Comparisons on players in the same league I think it's decent. Being in whatever centile in the Premier League vs someone in the Eridivisie though and it's pretty worthless.

[Checko]

Personally I think there's a lot of useful info on FB Ref, but it's certainly not as simple as 'look at the bars'

 

Like, you could have two players & one scores highly for pass completion % and gets a nice big green bar and the other fairly low and gets a red bar. So green bar man is the better passer. Right? But what if green bar man is always playing super safe obvious high % passes and the other guy's the playmaker playing lots of lower % through balls etc. Actually red bar man could be the better passer.

 

That's when you can look into the stats a bit further - see how many short/medium/long passes they play, how many are through balls etc. You can get some useful info from that. 

 

Lots of stuff on it can be skewed by a team's playing style/general quality as well, particularly volume stats like how many passes someone makes etc. So yeah, I think there's a lot of useful stuff but you need to weed through the figures a little bit.

[lovejoy]

4 hours ago, Froggy said:

 

Lucky enough.  Big wage all the same. More than most of our squad.

 

There's a suggestion that Newcastle are out here working with pennies when you're paying £100,000 a week for backup keepers.

 

I'm not sure there is a suggestion we're 'working with pennies', but we definitely pay less than most clubs in our position (i'd guess our top earner is less than Arsenal's, Man City's, Chelsea's, Spurs and even Villa's). I'd guess our overall wage bill is less than all of theirs too. But thats a combination of a legacy issue on our part plus the way the rules are.

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:21 by lovejoy

[lovejoy]

4 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

Well @Froggy keeps telling us their owners are worse than Mike Ashley.

 

So who the hell goes there expecting any sort of turnaround anytime soon.

 

They are a mess on and off the pitch at the minute and their project is very much up in the air.

 

I'm not buying this "opportunity to turn things around, biggest club" nonsense man.

 

It's ridiculous.

 

 

 

 It really isn't ridiculous though.

Man Utd are probably 3 players away (2 if they get Mbuemo) from sorting their shit out.

 

And even 'their shit' is 9 finals in 10 years, and god knows how many cups from those finals.

It's ridiculous for anyone to suggest that players choose Man Utd over us for money alone, they're one of the biggest clubs in the world ffs, and still win more than most in their worst time in decades.

 

[KaKa]

6 minutes ago, lovejoy said:

 It really isn't ridiculous though.

Man Utd are probably 3 players away (2 if they get Mbuemo) from sorting their shit out.

 

And even 'their shit' is 9 finals in 10 years, and god knows how many cups from those finals.

It's ridiculous for anyone to suggest that players choose Man Utd over us for money alone, they're one of the biggest clubs in the world ffs, and still win more than most in their worst time in decades.

 

 

Some of you lot are as bad as the media and the refs.

 

You keep telling me what they have done historically.

 

They have fallen far off of that in the last decade, and you think because in that time they picked up a couple of cups it justifies signing for them all things being equal.

 

I think it's nonsense. If they had to offer the same terms as a Newcastle or Villa, players will not go there. The higher wages is the advantage they have right now despite the state they've been in.

 

We keep hearing how players aren't pulling their weight, the atmosphere is toxic, stuff is being leaked to the press, managers are getting thrown under the bus, but "they're a big club, and won so many trophies!"

 

Who the hell signs up to deal with that crap just because. 

 

The inferiority complex is really quite astonishing.

[KaKa]

In fact, you know what ... if Man City are announced as having won their case tomorrow and every financial restrictions is thrown out going forward, meaning we can spend as we please, you really think we are losing out to these players, while Man Utd are in their current state? Give me a break!

[lovejoy]

23 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Some of you lot are as bad as the media and the refs.

 

You keep telling me what they have done historically.

 

They have fallen far off of that in the last decade, and you think because in that time they picked up a couple of cups it justifies signing for them all things being equal.

 

I think it's nonsense. If they had to offer the same terms as a Newcastle or Villa, players will not go there. The higher wages is the advantage they have right now despite the state they've been in.

 

We keep hearing how players aren't pulling their weight, the atmosphere is toxic, stuff is being leaked to the press, managers are getting thrown under the bus, but "they're a big club, and won so many trophies!"

 

Who the hell signs up to deal with that crap just because. 

 

The inferiority complex is really quite astonishing.

 

 

I don't disagree with most of that, but players will always be attracted to Man Utd because it's Man Utd. That's just a fact. There's more to it than money IMO.

[lovejoy]

19 minutes ago, KaKa said:

In fact, you know what ... if Man City are announced as having won their case tomorrow and every financial restrictions is thrown out going forward, meaning we can spend as we please, you really think we are losing out to these players, while Man Utd are in their current state? Give me a break!

 

Well hopefully we'll get to find out, and you're proved right. That would be wonderful.

 

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

6 minutes ago, lovejoy said:

 

 

I don't disagree with most of that, but players will always be attracted to Man Utd because it's Man Utd. That's just a fact. There's more to it than money IMO.

I don't think Kaka or others are saying it's just simply down to money but the fact they offer or are prepared to offer considerably more speaks volumes

 

Man U in the past could offer parity, maybe even less and they get the player, whereas now I think the money is a big factor (absolutely not the only factor btw)

[lovejoy]

Just now, Geordie Ahmed said:

I don't think Kaka or others are saying it's just simply down to money but the fact they offer or are prepared to offer considerably more speaks volumes

 

Man U in the past could offer parity, maybe even less and they get the player, whereas now I think the money is a big factor (absolutely not the only factor btw)

 

Yeah, thats fair.

 

 

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, lovejoy said:

 

 

I don't disagree with most of that, but players will always be attracted to Man Utd because it's Man Utd. That's just a fact. There's more to it than money IMO.

 

Yes, and I don't disagree with this completely either, you'll be surprised to hear!

 

I'll explain. If both ourselves and Man Utd had done just as well as each other this season and went for a player, and offered similar terms, in those circumstances, then I'd imagine their history etc comes into play and has some more pull and sway for players.

 

However, with all other things being equal in what is offered to players,  I do not agree that such sway exists regardless of how bad their state is as a club.

 

They have a huge financial advantage currently, which they are taking advantage of, particularly when it comes to the wages they can offer. 

 

Why they feel the need to claim it's not that big a factor I have no idea.

 

If these "bigger clubs" truly felt this was the case, they wouldn't be so worried about our ability to spend more, since their "heritage" would still win out most of the time anyway.

 

[KingArthur]

3 hours ago, Froggy said:

Once again, people use it in their arguments when it suits them. I've just been consistent with it is all.

Naah, you said that Capology didn't factor in the "well documented UCL-clause" when, actually, you aren't even sure how that clause works man.

[Froggy]

Just now, KingArthur said:

Naah, you said that Capology didn't factor in the "well documented UCL-clause" when, actually, you aren't even sure how that clause works man.

 

I'm not 100% sure on how it works, no. I just know that it exists, and it's always been reported that it's a 25% increase or decrease on base salary determined by Champions League qualification.

 

I'm sure there are finer details.

[Geogaddi]

4 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

Let me make this as clear as possible, so you fully understand what I'm saying.

 

IMO if Newcastle, Spurs, Villa offer the package you did, and a spot in their first team, I highly doubt they join you instead.

 

You are out of Europe, you finished 15th, your PR off the pitch is terrible, your owners are "worse than Mike Ashley", there's holes in your roof, the stadium is rat infested, the staff are only allowed soup and bread on the premises, Rashford, Antony, Sancho and Garnacho are still moping around the place and killing the vibe, Onana is still clowning about in goal and no one is sure about your manager still.

 

This is not a sound career move. Unless the financial compensation is extremely attractive over the others.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand why he is arguing against any of this . Yes we all know Man United are a far bigger club than we are but they are a total mess at the minute and not in the champions league next season. They are blowing us out the water with wages on Mbeumo and that's the only reason he is signing for them, as aside from wages unless he is totally daft in the head their is literally no other reason why he would pick them at this moment in time . 99% of footballers will always go where the money is and we are being told Mbeumo isn't doing that.

[Froggy]

13 minutes ago, Geogaddi said:

I don't understand why he is arguing against any of this . Yes we all know Man United are a far bigger club than we are but they are a total mess at the minute and not in the champions league next season. They are blowing us out the water with wages on Mbeumo and that's the only reason he is signing for them, as aside from wages unless he is totally daft in the head their is literally no other reason why he would pick them at this moment in time . 99% of footballers will always go where the money is and we are being told Mbeumo isn't doing that.

 

You're not being told that, but you're creating a narrative before we've even finalised anything with the player. We don't even have a verbal agreement with Mbeumo yet, but apparently we're blowing you out of the water. You have no idea what we'll offer him.

 

The fact that you believe that the only reason a player could possibly choose Manchester United over Newcastle United is wages is pretty incredible.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:36 by Froggy

[Checko]

10 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

I'm not 100% sure on how it works, no. I just know that it exists, and it's always been reported that it's a 25% increase or decrease on base salary determined by Champions League qualification.

 

I'm sure there are finer details.

I imagine lots of teams have something like that. Obvioiusly you'll know better than me, but my guess is it would just be something like: here's your salary. If we're don't get CL it goes down by 25% for that year. Or maybe, here's your salary, if we're in CL it goes up by 25% or something.

 

Set 25% of salary decreases or increases could be weird cause, say you have someone on 100k. Miss out on CL so goes down 25% to 75k. Get CL again so it goes up by 25% of salary - 25% of 75 is 18.75 so they'd now be up to £93.75k pw, worse off than before. Would be sneaky mind, but probably annoying for a player and seems a lot simpler to just have a set reduction.