Fixing Football

[ponsaelius]

One thing that hasn't been touched on is the way the TV boom of the Premier League and CL era has absolutely obliterated the smaller leagues in Europe. Basically if you're unfortunate to be a big club that plays in a small country (Ajax, Benfica, Celtic, Eastern European sides etc) you are absolutely fucked now. The collective brand power of the major 4 or 5 leagues just gives them a significant advantage to the point where a club like us can walk up and take Ajax's star players off them. It's ridiculous imo, as much as I like Anita. The power structure has been completely distorted for the worse.

[Toondave]

Talks about salary caps, transfer caps and sort of limiting on expenditure is nonsense.We need more billionaires not less, preferably of the Mansour mould not the Ashley one. There's a reason we're the most watched league in the world. If we start telling owners what they can and cant do they'll just bugger off to France and Spain and I'd rather watch the likes of Aguero, Ozil and Suarez every week even if not for Newcastle thank you very much. I bet there are thousands who plod along to shitty leagues in god knows where to watch the local butcher trip himself up who wish they had some filthy oil money destroying their beautiful game. Lot of it seems to boil down to jealousy, I wonder how many City/Chelsea fans complain about foreign money buying their trophies, I know I'd take an arab or russian here tomorrow.

 

If we are to abolish the loan system we need a serious overhaul of the reserve system. Something like Spains is good imo. I don't know how the reserve system works inside out and obviously people aren't going to turn up in their thousands to watch them but making it a bit more competitive would reduce the need to loan out players.

 

Agree completely about EL/CL. Get rid of the europa league and make the Champions League bigger. In conjunction with banning loans would spread out the top players to more clubs.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

You have some interesting views except for capping wages to a ratio of turnover. That is the worst way to promote competition, mate. You need to make it so that the commercial and sponsorship income that those clubs currently enjoy are accessible to a wider range of clubs. Why do those clubs enjoy those incomes? Because they are exposed to consumers and audiences around the world through the Champions League and through becoming competitive in their domestic league. So now you try to expose other clubs, too. How? Increase qualifiers into the Champions League. That will increase exposure, increase commercial income and increase access for newer clubs. How do you make clubs more competitive in their leagues? Protect them from the clubs that have more money, so that they're able to keep their best players longer. How do you do that? Ban loans because loans promote inequality. Banning loans will lead to lesser permanent transfers to the clubs with money and it would also lead to transfers that are far more expensive (because the players will be more mature). That will lead to greater income to the smaller clubs, and if it is wisely spent, will lead to them being more competitive vis-a-vis the clubs with money.

 

You want to promote competition without making it easy to compete. A salary cap which essentially guarantees profits reduces the incentive to compete and grow because owners will be satisfied with making profits each year. A transfer cap would make it harder for promoted teams to compete because they won't be able to overhaul their squads in preparation of a tougher league, and it would also make it harder for newly qualifiers of the Champions League to be able to compete with the teams already in there, too. You need to promote good, sustainable risk-taking because good off-the-pitch management needs to be well-rewarded.

 

I've obviously not thought it through as much as yourself, again interesting reading and some excellent points.

 

For me football is badly broken at all levels and as a fan I have lost so much love for the game and indeed interest to the point if I were to remove Newcastle United from the equation my interest would be zero. I barely watch any football on TV or have any real knowledge of the game outside of the Premier League these days.

 

I haven't attended SJP in over a year and even then I think I've only been to about 10 games in 3 years or something. Ironically I went to loads in the Championship season, home and away. That was a very enjoyable season, probably only bettered by the KK years and when we were flying high under Sir Bobby.

 

Football sickens me these days, none more so than my own club and those who run it.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

For me, football is interesting because every individual 90 minutes is still interesting. If I think too much about the wider picture, it's very depressing.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

For me, football is interesting because every individual 90 minutes is still interesting. If I think too much about the wider picture, it's very depressing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love a good game of football but where NUFC is concerned I can't get too excited about anything. We could trash the mackems 10-0 and I'd love it, but while Ashley owns us, our DOF is Kinnear, our manager Pardew and we are unable to keep our star players and compete for honours, its all pointless really. In many ways we have to saviour moments like the 5-1 and players like Cabaye while we can because this is as good as it gets for the likes of us. Especially under MA and Co.

[ponsaelius]

Talks about salary caps, transfer caps and sort of limiting on expenditure is nonsense.We need more billionaires not less, preferably of the Mansour mould not the Ashley one. There's a reason we're the most watched league in the world. If we start telling owners what they can and cant do they'll just bugger off to France and Spain and I'd rather watch the likes of Aguero, Ozil and Suarez every week even if not for Newcastle thank you very much. I bet there are thousands who plod along to shitty leagues in god knows where to watch the local butcher trip himself up who wish they had some filthy oil money destroying their beautiful game. Lot of it seems to boil down to jealousy, I wonder how many City/Chelsea fans complain about foreign money buying their trophies, I know I'd take an arab or russian here tomorrow.

 

If we are to abolish the loan system we need a serious overhaul of the reserve system. Something like Spains is good imo. I don't know how the reserve system works inside out and obviously people aren't going to turn up in their thousands to watch them but making it a bit more competitive would reduce the need to loan out players.

 

Agree completely about EL/CL. Get rid of the europa league and make the Champions League bigger. In conjunction with banning loans would spread out the top players to more clubs.

 

More billionaires then, so the success of teams is dependant almost entirely on lottery? Whichever team happens to be available when some criminal Russian gangster or Oil tycoon decides on a whim to buy a club is the team that will be successful for the next 10 years. That's not a good or fair system whichever way you try to slice it or however much you like watching Luis Suarez on MOTD. People are talking about restrictions on a European or Global scale, obviously not just in the UK so the point about players going to different leagues is a moot one in this utopia.

 

The reserve system in Spain is an utter joke and anybody who sees its implementation over here as a good idea is quite frankly out of touch with the football culture in this country. The lower leagues in Spain are a JOKE. The entire country is a nation of glory hunters rendering the lower divisions an almost pointless exercise, adding in reserve teams and devaluing it further barely matters when nobody supports the lower league sides anyway. Doing the same thing in the UK is utterly disrespectful to every lower league club in the country that are the hubs of their entire communities and have rich histories that are over 100 years old. Teams in the 5th tier bring in thousands of supporters and take 10s of thousands to cup finals FFS. The fans of these clubs don't want to go and watch fucking B teams from Premier League clubs who's line-ups and levels of competitiveness will vary wildly over the course of a season, bringing the entire idea of competition into question. Does every team in the Premier League have a B team they get to put into the league system? What about C teams? What about Championship clubs do they get a B team as well? Within 10 years it would destroy the lower leagues in this country, a lower league system that is the betterment of anything else in the world and the one thing we should be striving to protect in terms of English Football.

 

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Talks about salary caps, transfer caps and sort of limiting on expenditure is nonsense.We need more billionaires not less, preferably of the Mansour mould not the Ashley one. There's a reason we're the most watched league in the world. If we start telling owners what they can and cant do they'll just bugger off to France and Spain and I'd rather watch the likes of Aguero, Ozil and Suarez every week even if not for Newcastle thank you very much. I bet there are thousands who plod along to shitty leagues in god knows where to watch the local butcher trip himself up who wish they had some filthy oil money destroying their beautiful game. Lot of it seems to boil down to jealousy, I wonder how many City/Chelsea fans complain about foreign money buying their trophies, I know I'd take an arab or russian here tomorrow.

 

If we are to abolish the loan system we need a serious overhaul of the reserve system. Something like Spains is good imo. I don't know how the reserve system works inside out and obviously people aren't going to turn up in their thousands to watch them but making it a bit more competitive would reduce the need to loan out players.

 

Agree completely about EL/CL. Get rid of the europa league and make the Champions League bigger. In conjunction with banning loans would spread out the top players to more clubs.

 

More billionaires then, so the success of teams is dependant almost entirely on lottery? Whichever team happens to be available when some criminal Russian gangster or Oil tycoon decides on a whim to buy a club is the team that will be successful for the next 10 years. That's not a good or fair system whichever way you try to slice it or however much you like watching Luis Suarez on MOTD. People are talking about restrictions on a European or Global scale, obviously not just in the UK so the point about players going to different leagues is a moot one in this utopia.

 

The reserve system in Spain is an utter joke and anybody who sees its implementation over here as a good idea is quite frankly out of touch with the football culture in this country. The lower leagues in Spain are a JOKE. The entire country is a nation of glory hunters rendering the lower divisions an almost pointless exercise, adding in reserve teams and devaluing it further barely matters when nobody supports the lower league sides anyway. Doing the same thing in the UK is utterly disrespectful to every lower league club in the country that are the hubs of their entire communities and have rich histories that are over 100 years old. Teams in the 5th tier bring in thousands of supporters and take 10s of thousands to cup finals FFS. The fans of these clubs don't want to go and watch f***ing B teams from Premier League clubs who's line-ups and levels of competitiveness will vary wildly over the course of a season, bringing the entire idea of competition into question. Does every team in the Premier League have a B team they get to put into the league system? What about C teams? What about Championship clubs do they get a B team as well? Within 10 years it would destroy the lower leagues in this country, a lower league system that is the betterment of anything else in the world and the one thing we should be striving to protect in terms of English Football.

 

 

 

Amen!

[Toondave]

Like I say I don't watch reserve football so I'll take your word on the Spanish system. But if we are getting rid of the loan system in its entirety then we need to do something with youth/reserve teams, otherwise these clubs who you champion will invariably become B teams to the larger teams under a different name.

[ponsaelius]

Like I say I don't watch reserve football so I'll take your word on the Spanish system. But if we are getting rid of the loan system in its entirety then we need to do something with youth/reserve teams, otherwise these clubs who you champion will invariably become B teams to the larger teams under a different name.

 

How? It will do exactly the opposite. Proper restrictions on not just loans, but squad sizes and the size of the youth squads will stop players being hoarded and then lent out to be improved as assets by smaller clubs. Proper restrictions, no cop outs and if clubs go over the limits they're forced to sell at an agreed undervalue price to somebody else instead of being able to loan them. Players are being spread out then instead of monpolised and ruined because there's small chance they might one day be backup left back for Chelsea.

 

Also stops clubs that overspend like QPR being able to take the copout of loaning out all the players they can't sell or afford to keep on the wagebill to save money and 'cheat death' in the sense of avoiding the repercussions of their financial carelessness. Remy, Park, Granero, Taarabt, Mbia etc.

 

The loan system is to the power of the wealthy and the get out clause for the wreckless. Its an invention that has unsurprisingly turned up and prospered over the last 20 years. Football survived 100 years without it and there's nothing to stop it doing so again, it just means harder restrictions have to be made in its place.

[George Bailey]

Excellent posts Sewelly.

 

The effect on the likes of Portugueses, Dutch sides etc was one thing I hadn't even considered tbh, which makes me feel rather insular looking...

 

 

 

[ponsaelius]

Excellent posts Sewelly.

 

The effect on the likes of Portugueses, Dutch sides etc was one thing I hadn't even considered tbh, which makes me feel rather insular looking...

 

The only thing keeping the Portuguese clubs remotely competitive is work permit laws, good scouting and the fact that South American clubs are even more screwed than themselves.

 

If Benfica get another Eusebio there's no chance he spends his career there and wins them a European Cup, a damn shame.

[Interpolic]

Everyone seemed to hate the Cup Winners Cup when it existed FWIW.

[Toondave]

Like I say I don't watch reserve football so I'll take your word on the Spanish system. But if we are getting rid of the loan system in its entirety then we need to do something with youth/reserve teams, otherwise these clubs who you champion will invariably become B teams to the larger teams under a different name.

 

How? It will do exactly the opposite. Proper restrictions on not just loans, but squad sizes and the size of the youth squads will stop players being hoarded and then lent out to be improved as assets by smaller clubs. Proper restrictions, no cop outs and if clubs go over the limits they're forced to sell at an agreed undervalue price to somebody else instead of being able to loan them. Players are being spread out then instead of monpolised and ruined because there's small chance they might one day be backup left back for Chelsea.

 

Also stops clubs that overspend like QPR being able to take the copout of loaning out all the players they can't sell or afford to keep on the wagebill to save money and 'cheat death' in the sense of avoiding the repercussions of their financial carelessness. Remy, Park, Granero, Taarabt, Mbia etc.

 

The loan system is to the power of the wealthy and the get out clause for the wreckless. Its an invention that has unsurprisingly turned up and prospered over the last 20 years. Football survived 100 years without it and there's nothing to stop it doing so again, it just means harder restrictions have to be made in its place.

 

Of course it will. Clubs will just turn into feeder clubs in everything but technicality. For example we'd just sell our young kid who may or may not make it to Gateshead with a pre agreed buy back clause. It'd essentially be a loan. Unless you want to ban the players right to make contractual agreements. In fact if anything it would become more prevalent if the loan limit is effectively lifted.

[George Bailey]

Everyone seemed to hate the Cup Winners Cup when it existed FWIW.

 

I liked it

 

[ponsaelius]

Like I say I don't watch reserve football so I'll take your word on the Spanish system. But if we are getting rid of the loan system in its entirety then we need to do something with youth/reserve teams, otherwise these clubs who you champion will invariably become B teams to the larger teams under a different name.

 

How? It will do exactly the opposite. Proper restrictions on not just loans, but squad sizes and the size of the youth squads will stop players being hoarded and then lent out to be improved as assets by smaller clubs. Proper restrictions, no cop outs and if clubs go over the limits they're forced to sell at an agreed undervalue price to somebody else instead of being able to loan them. Players are being spread out then instead of monpolised and ruined because there's small chance they might one day be backup left back for Chelsea.

 

Also stops clubs that overspend like QPR being able to take the copout of loaning out all the players they can't sell or afford to keep on the wagebill to save money and 'cheat death' in the sense of avoiding the repercussions of their financial carelessness. Remy, Park, Granero, Taarabt, Mbia etc.

 

The loan system is to the power of the wealthy and the get out clause for the wreckless. Its an invention that has unsurprisingly turned up and prospered over the last 20 years. Football survived 100 years without it and there's nothing to stop it doing so again, it just means harder restrictions have to be made in its place.

 

Of course it will. Clubs will just turn into feeder clubs in everything but technicality. For example we'd just sell our young kid who may or may not make it to Gateshead with a pre agreed buy back clause. It'd essentially be a loan. Unless you want to ban the players right to make contractual agreements. In fact if anything it would become more prevalent if the loan limit is effectively lifted.

 

How is that worse? At least then the smaller club can get a financial stake in a player and benefit from it and it stops them wasting their time hanging around at a club where they won't make it.

[Toondave]

Like I say I don't watch reserve football so I'll take your word on the Spanish system. But if we are getting rid of the loan system in its entirety then we need to do something with youth/reserve teams, otherwise these clubs who you champion will invariably become B teams to the larger teams under a different name.

 

How? It will do exactly the opposite. Proper restrictions on not just loans, but squad sizes and the size of the youth squads will stop players being hoarded and then lent out to be improved as assets by smaller clubs. Proper restrictions, no cop outs and if clubs go over the limits they're forced to sell at an agreed undervalue price to somebody else instead of being able to loan them. Players are being spread out then instead of monpolised and ruined because there's small chance they might one day be backup left back for Chelsea.

 

Also stops clubs that overspend like QPR being able to take the copout of loaning out all the players they can't sell or afford to keep on the wagebill to save money and 'cheat death' in the sense of avoiding the repercussions of their financial carelessness. Remy, Park, Granero, Taarabt, Mbia etc.

 

The loan system is to the power of the wealthy and the get out clause for the wreckless. Its an invention that has unsurprisingly turned up and prospered over the last 20 years. Football survived 100 years without it and there's nothing to stop it doing so again, it just means harder restrictions have to be made in its place.

 

Of course it will. Clubs will just turn into feeder clubs in everything but technicality. For example we'd just sell our young kid who may or may not make it to Gateshead with a pre agreed buy back clause. It'd essentially be a loan. Unless you want to ban the players right to make contractual agreements. In fact if anything it would become more prevalent if the loan limit is effectively lifted.

 

How is that worse? At least then the smaller club can get a financial stake in a player and benefit from it and it stops them wasting their time hanging around at a club where they won't make it.

 

But they'd become more dependent on talent from bigger clubs and I thought that was the issue here.

 

If it's about remuneration then why don't we televise more lower league games. Alas people don't like television coverage either 

[Hanshithispantz]

Agree with point A completely. The loan system helps to perpetuate the wealth of the few and maintain the status quo, its a cop out from making proper restrictions on squads.

 

Point B + C I disagree with, the CL needs knocking down and the UEFA Cup reinstated with the same status it used to have and financial incentives to match it. We still need a second competition that teams have a chance of winning, putting everybody in the CL and getting rid of the second tier competition is one less competition that teams like ourselves have to aspire for.

 

Football needs a massive dose of socialism across the board. Wage caps, squad restrictions, financial fair play whatever - anything that can be done to narrow the gap between the haves and the have nots needs to be done before the sport becomes a farce for everybody but a handful of clubs.

sexy Sewelly

[ponsaelius]

[Taylor Swift]

I'm okay with promoting the Europa by increasing revenues and decreasing revenues in the CL but it's a subsidy, which will never fly. It's also harder to negotiate TV deals for the Europa. Eliminate it, have the CL, collectively bargain for better rights and spread the money. You will enable smaller teams to qualify and to build squads that are capable of winning domestic leagues and cups. In the end, that is the bread and butter.

 

In general, I feel my proposals are realistic because none of the teams/leagues lose out financially. It's a win-win and can realistically be implemented. I feel any wage or transfer cap would never be able to be implemented for various reasons, laws being the most important. The EU have a history of over regulation that other institutions don't. Even if you got pass the EU, Chinese and other Asian leagues would never agree to cut themselves at the knees today because realistically the future is huge for them. In 20 years time, the Chinese league will be one of the best paying, and with that comes the highest quality players. It's the same reason players go to England these days.

[Hughesy]

A global salary cap is a complete non-starter.  It just wouldn't work.

[themanupstairs]

As long as live television is around, football will never again be fixed. The masses are far too addicted to the damn thing. It isn't about the sport anymore. It's about "glory" and celebrity. Entertainment for the sake of entertainment. Football has followed Big production Hollywood. Not much need for a real "storyline" so long as it buzzes and beeps big effects and colours.

[colinmk]

Even getting the bloody UEFA cup back with more financial rewards and less towards the Champions League would be something and enforce the FFP rules much better. Can't ever see wage caps or transfer caps working like yous say, just too many variables out there.

 

I didn't mind the Cup Winners cup, it was still pretty exciting even though it was a bit shit.

[leffe186]

We've crossed the Rubicon tbh.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Yep, I definitely think things have gone too far to ever be fixed. And nobody in a position of power has much of an interest in doing so. The top leagues and the big clubs are in charge of everything.

[colinmk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25856557

 

Football fans should be given the first right to buy their clubs, according to the Scottish Green Party.

 

It wants the principles of rural land reform laws, which help communities buy land, to be extended to supporters of football clubs.

 

The Scottish government is consulting on a bill which sets out plans to expand the community right-to-buy to public sector land and buildings.

 

The Greens want the bill to be extended to include clubs' membership shares.

 

Green MSP Alison Johnstone will bring amendments to the Scottish government's Community Empowerment (Scotland) Bill, which ministers are consulting on until Friday.

Continue reading the main story

“Start Quote

 

    I believe fans' trusts are most likely to be the most responsible and successful owners ”

 

Alison Johnstone Green MSP

 

She said too many Scottish football fans had gone through "painful cycles of boom and bust" at their clubs.

Urban communities

 

The Lothian MSP said: "Hearts, Rangers and Dunfermline supporters are just the most recent to have been put through the wringer.

 

"I believe fans' trusts are most likely to be the most responsible and successful owners for their clubs in the long term.

 

"Giving communities across Scotland greater control over the assets they rely on is essential."

 

When the consultation was launched in November, Local Government Minister Derek Mackay said the bill was "about people and communities taking their own decisions about their future".

 

He said at the time: "'The bill will help community groups to take over public land and buildings where they think they can make better use of them than their current public sector owners.

 

"This bill will also reform the community right to buy, giving urban communities in Scotland same rights as rural communities, where it is in the public interest."

 

Will probably be ignored unfortunately because it is the greens(who actually have lots of great policies) but sounds like perfect sense to me.