England: Burn and Gordon named in latest squad (Official)

[Guest]

Aye, he fluked 2 of England's 5 best ever major tournaments. Could call once a fluke but not twice like.

[JumpersForGoalposts]

3 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

Aye, he fluked 2 of England's 5 best ever major tournaments. Could call once a fluke but not twice like.

I'm going to go bold and say that you either didn't watch them, or have been seduced by his waistcoat. 

[Guest]

Nah I didn't watch a second. You're right, we should have went out in the last 16 in both.

[astraguy]

Don't give a fuck,i doubt England will see a talent like this we had in my lifetime Fergie ruined our goat 

[St. Maximin]

As far as the draws are concerned though, he was lucky surely? 
 

I know stats don’t lie and I also don’t want to compare his managerial ability to Steve Bruce, but surely we think his comfortable mid table finishes (in my view on paper high for our squad) didn’t paint a full picture?

 

Southgate’s victories in big tournaments are beating okay Colombia (on penalties, albeit a great moment for English football) and Sweden sides in 2018 and Germany, Ukraine and Denmark (on paper the hardest two of which were at Wembley) in ‘2020’. Hardly extraordinary achievements and failure to win any of those would have been seen as a major disappointment. 

[Guest]

We've had easy draws in the past and better squads in the past and only outdone Southgate once.

[AJ9]

54 minutes ago, JumpersForGoalposts said:

I'm going to go bold and say that you either didn't watch them, or have been seduced by his waistcoat. 

Come on man. It’s not really fair on him to say he spawned his way to a semi and a final due to the route they had. I have nephews who are old enough to have been born when we had easy routes and were dumped out regardless. We were a couple of penalties away from winning the euros. We didn’t, but that’s the closest we’ve ever been in my 36 years of living. He didn’t pick the teams we played against and others have played worse and failed massively. Criticise him all you like for his boring, turgid, soulless football, but his record so far is great, and compares much more favourably to other more high profile England managers (Sven, Keegan, Capello, McClaren…at the time)

[AJ9]

And of course the mad thing is that the teams we beat are always shit in hindsight, but I don’t remember anyone really saying Columbia, Denmark and Germany would be easy fixtures at the time. 

[AJ9]

1 hour ago, JumpersForGoalposts said:

Anyone else expecting Southgate to stay on after the WC? He's absolutely dogshit, but that hasn't led the FA to sack him previously. 

 

He's had two hyper-spawny tournaments already, and even if England are embarrassed this time around, I could see him staying on. Partially because the FA love him, and partially because any decent manager wouldn't touch that job with a bargepole.

 

 

 

 
You have a point on the next manager mind. It’s going to be someone that needs the role rather than the other way round. I expect the media to clamour for Dyche

[St. Maximin]

18 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

We've had easy draws in the past and better squads in the past and only outdone Southgate once.

My memory doesn’t stretch past 1998, but we definitely had a better squad in 2006 with a reasonable run to the quarters. We then lost to Portugal, who were definitely better than the Sweden and Ukraine teams Southgate had to beat. Then in 2010 we also had a fairly strong squad, but were dreadful and went out 2nd round. However, that was to an excellent young Germany side that would end up champions four years later. Sven and Capello rightly got stuck after losing these matches, even though more favourable draws wouldn’t have seen them play those teams. Regardless, their poor performances seem to make Southgate’s achievements look better seeing as his record is due to comparisons.  
 

I said before I wasn’t too annoyed about 2018 as that team was in transition and Croatia had a brilliant midfield, but 2020 we were virtually at home and had our easiest knockout match away. Being second best with one of the strongest squads there hire isn’t too impressive. 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by St. Maximin

[St. Maximin]

12 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

And of course the mad thing is that the teams we beat are always shit in hindsight, but I don’t remember anyone really saying Columbia, Denmark and Germany would be easy fixtures at the time. 

I don’t think anyone is saying they were ‘easy’ fixtures but (especially given home advantage) they were part of ‘easy’ draws because it’s all relative - you’ll never get to the final/semis without some challenging fixtures. Every win we had, however, we were definite favourites. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

My memory doesn’t stretch past 1998, but we definitely had a better squad in 2006 with a reasonable run to the quarters. We then lost to Portugal, who were definitely better than the Sweden and Ukraine teams Southgate had to beat. Then in 2010 we also had a fairly strong squad, but were dreadful and went out 2nd round. However, that was to an excellent young Germany side that would end up champions four years later. Sven and Capello rightly got stuck after losing these matches, even though more favourable draws wouldn’t have seen them play those teams. Regardless, their poor performances seem to make Southgate’s achievements look better seeing as his record is due to comparisons.  
 

I said before I wasn’t too annoyed about 2018 as that team was in transition and Croatia had a brilliant midfield, but 2020 we were virtually at home and had our easiest knockout match away. Being second best with one of the strongest squads there hire isn’t too impressive. 

 

 

 

 

We've still no devine right to beat someone like Italy. We were two penalties from winning it.

[AJ9]

4 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

I don’t think anyone is saying they were ‘easy’ fixtures but (especially given home advantage) they were part of ‘easy’ draws because it’s all relative - you’ll never get to the final/semis without some challenging fixtures. Every win we had, however, we were definite favourites. 

 

I get what you're saying, and yes of course the home advantage is a massive factor, but you can't get away from the fact that we were favourites because we were actually pretty good...

[St. Maximin]

3 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

We've still no devine right to beat someone like Italy. We were two penalties from winning it.

I completely agree. I do think his tactics were poor that game though and that’s only continued since. I also like the bloke a lot and thank him for a lot of positives I feel he’s had a direct influence in. I just also think he was very lucky with the draws and was exposed when he came across stronger teams/managers he was lucky not to play more of earlier on. 

[St. Maximin]

2 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

 

I get what you're saying, and yes of course the home advantage is a massive factor, but you can't get away from the fact that we were favourites because we were actually pretty good...

Yeah without doubt, though that has a lot to do with having great players and leads back to the arguments he’s not getting enough from them!

[AJ9]

14 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

My memory doesn’t stretch past 1998, but we definitely had a better squad in 2006 with a reasonable run to the quarters. We then lost to Portugal, who were definitely better than the Sweden and Ukraine teams Southgate had to beat. Then in 2010 we also had a fairly strong squad, but were dreadful and went out 2nd round. However, that was to an excellent young Germany side that would end up champions four years later. Sven and Capello rightly got stuck after losing these matches, even though more favourable draws wouldn’t have seen them play those teams. Regardless, their poor performances seem to make Southgate’s achievements look better seeing as his record is due to comparisons.  
 

I said before I wasn’t too annoyed about 2018 as that team was in transition and Croatia had a brilliant midfield, but 2020 we were virtually at home and had our easiest knockout match away. Being second best with one of the strongest squads there hire isn’t too impressive. 

 

 

 

 

And within that we had 2014 and 2016 which were two of the shittest tournaments ever...we also didn't qualify for 2008, stunk out the place in 2000, were pretty lacklustre in 2006. All I'm saying is that we aren't traditionally a nation that is really top tier, and Southgate is the guy who in my lifetime has taken us the closest. I personally hate the football he plays, and think he has taken this as far as he can, but he's done a better job than most before him.

[AJ9]

I think we're not actually disagreeing too much here to be honest - I think it was the poster before you who was saying he fluked it twice and was dogshit I was disagreeing with more.

[St. Maximin]

14 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

I think we're not actually disagreeing too much here to be honest - I think it was the poster before you who was saying he fluked it twice and was dogshit I was disagreeing with more.

Think I’m in complete agreement with what you said about Southgate . Think some of his biggest critics fail to acknowledge the state of the England team before he came in (that 2016 Iceland defeat still lives long in the memory…) and the complete disengagement from the fans. He deserves a lot of praise for his, but he also has his limitations and nowadays they’re what are having the main impact. 

[huss9]

1 hour ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

We've still no devine right to beat someone like Italy. We were two penalties from winning it.

we were a lot closer to winning it than that if he had grown a pair of balls and been more pro-active with his subs.

[Yorkie]

4 hours ago, JumpersForGoalposts said:

Anyone else expecting Southgate to stay on after the WC? He's absolutely dogshit, but that hasn't led the FA to sack him previously. 

 

He's had two hyper-spawny tournaments already, and even if England are embarrassed this time around, I could see him staying on. Partially because the FA love him, and partially because any decent manager wouldn't touch that job with a bargepole.

 

 

 

 

 Literally the second-most successful England manager in history. 

 

It beggars belief some of the stuff Southgate gets levelled at him. We'd have been stuck with fucking Allardyce (followed by God-knows-what by ~2019), had he not been waiting in the wings. 

[pinkeye]

I find it really hard to get excited by England football but, I do try to watch the games when I can.  More so when I knew that we should have some Newcastle interest with both Pope and Trippier in the squad.

 

I think what Southgate did very well when he was first appointed was to bring in a lot of younger talented players and allow them to play in a slightly more open and relaxed way.  With this fresh new team we had some glimmers of possible success culminating in a Euro Final but, he is reverting to the same way that all England managers do and that is to play the same team and tactics regardless.  It seems more important not to lose than it is to try to win.  Shoehorning players into unfamiliar positions (Walker for example on Saturday) just so they are part of the team.  Probably also done to death on here but, Harry Maguire was never an England standard player, he is barely a Man Utd player but, he is straight into the team....

 

Sadly it is the English media to blame for all of this, Southgate knew from day one that if the smallest thing goes wrong that he would be lambasted by the press and destroyed.  He took a couple of mild risks early days and they kind of payed off but, here we are again...  he is terrified of doing the wrong thing now and simply reverts to England manager standard by picking the same players regardless

[buzza]

I have very little interest in the England team tbh, but when the world cup starts and there is no NUFC footy on, then my interest will ramp up a fair bit.

At the moment, from what I have read (can´t get the games on TV over here), seems like southgate is going with his "favourites" and not giving other possible candidates a run out (Toney/trent A./maddison...etc), which seems strange given that this euro league has no importance whatsoever.

He knows what Kane, sterling, Kyle W, declan and the other favourites bring, why not give the "possible" players a run out and see how they fit into his system (looks like he´ll use five three two). If I have read right there are no more friendly games/time lined up before the world cup starts. Seems insane he hasn´t tried out the other "form" players and is sticking with his favs???

 

 

 

[McCormick]

I can understand him picking his favourites; there isn’t any time left now to throw in new names and see if they gel. What Southgate is seemingly good at is creating team spirit, and picking guys that have done well previously seems like the safest bet. He’s extremely risk-averse and there is probably some merit to that approach in competition play.

 

In saying this, Southgate was never the man to lead this generation of talent. He’s a gutless dinosaur and lacks any understanding of modern football tactics and imposing them on opponents. On managerial talent alone, I’m confident in saying he’d be the worst manager in the Premier League.

 

Difficult to argue with his success but there are major caveats to that, in much the same way we use caveats on Pardew’s 5th season.

[The College Dropout]

13 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

We've had easy draws in the past and better squads in the past and only outdone Southgate once.

Not true.

 

We've still yet to beat a team the quality of Portugal on neutral ground.

 

The biggest victory he's achieved is Germany at home. The rest - is the typical England international W. You can argue Colombia but even that was on penalties. 

 

Southgate has less big international scalps than France's Euro 2000 run (Spain, Portugal, Italy). Germany aside, when we've faced this level of competition, we've lost or drawn.

[The College Dropout]

5 minutes ago, McCormick said:

I can understand him picking his favourites; there isn’t any time left now to throw in new names and see if they gel. What Southgate is seemingly good at is creating team spirit, and picking guys that have done well previously seems like the safest bet. He’s extremely risk-averse and there is probably some merit to that approach in competition play.

 

In saying this, Southgate was never the man to lead this generation of talent. He’s a gutless dinosaur and lacks any understanding of modern football tactics and imposing them on opponents. On managerial talent alone, I’m confident in saying he’d be the worst manager in the Premier League.

 

Difficult to argue with his success but there are major caveats to that, in much the same way we use caveats on Pardew’s 5th season.

International managers are rarely on the cutting edge of modern football tactics. That doesn't mean they can't be good/great. Southgate's issues run much deeper than that.