England

[Disco]

Is there a country that has punched above their weight population-wise more than Uruguay historically? Crazy there's only 3.5m live there.

 

No, although they’ve had their shite times too. Saying that economics will always mean they’re in the upper half of South American teams.

 

Massively helps in countries like Uruguay there’s no other past times aside from drinking hot drinks.

[ponsaelius]

I don’t entirely buy the population thing. Suriname is a nation of half a million with a wider diaspora. For 20 years straight Surinamese (is that right?) descendants have been good footballers as a disproportionate rate.  Now it’s stopped.  The a mean was the previous output imo. This is a slump not a return to the mean.

 

Netherlands overall were a top nation for 30-40 straight years more or less. They can’t be compared to Belgium.  Netherlands have been good for too many generations.

 

Belgium have been to more World Cups than the Dutch. 12 vs 10.

 

It's just their peaks haven't been so great when they've had fantastic generations. They were still runners up at the Euros in 1980 and 4th place at the World Cup in 1986. This generation hasn't finished its run yet.

[ponsaelius]

Is there a country that has punched above their weight population-wise more than Uruguay historically? Crazy there's only 3.5m live there.

 

No Uruguay is clearly #1 on that front.

 

On a smaller level Iceland's current generation is pretty remarkable. It can't be overstated how impressive it is that a country of 300k is qualifying for major tournaments. They're making a mockery of how pundits view qualifying games against minnows like Malta and Luxembourg which are actually bigger countries in terms of critical mass. It can be done no matter how small.

[ponsaelius]

The thing with the Dutch is they've always had starting XI players who you think - hmm not quite top level. I mean look at 2010 - Heitinga and (I think) Matthijsen at centre back. But they've been carried by a handful of world class players and in knock-out football that can be enough especially if you have a great way of playing and can ride the wave of a short format tournament. It can also blow up in your face, as it has with the Dutch many times before with even their good sides.

 

With this current generation, the 3 or 4 stars aren't there now, and you're just left with the mediocrity. That's the reality of it and that's the reality of coming to the end of a great generation with a medium sized nation. It's really not too different to the Czechs falling off a cliff after 2004. It's from a greater high, and to a higher trough, but it's by and large the same thing.

[The College Dropout]

Netherlands didn't enter the WC in 1950, 1954 and didn't qualify for the World Cup in 1958, 1962, 1966, 1970, 1982, 1986, 2002 and now 2018.

 

That's a lot of missed World Cup's for a footballing powerhouse. No they're a smaller country that has massively punched above its weight, and has now regressed slightly after some great success. It's just they have achieved so much, and produced so many fantastic players, that expectations are above and beyond.

Claiming Netherlands have not been an international powerhouse is absolutely absurd.

 

I'm talking quality of player. WC appearances doesn't tell the whole story.

 

2002 team would've had Reizeger, Stam, Seedorf, Zenden, Kluivert, Davids & Makaay all in their 20's. Would've had RVN and Robben in the ranks too. They didn't miss out due to a lack of quality. The following Euros they got to the semi's - that team was excellent on paper.

 

They won the Euros in 88. 1986 was before my time but again, I can only assume the reason for not making the previous World Cup - again - was not down to a lack of quality.

 

This past 4-6 years they haven't developed any quality. This is the first time that's happened - in my lifetime and maybe can only be compared to the early 80's rut.

 

From 1974ish to 2014 - the Netherlands was seemingly never more than 1 tournament away from challenging. Apart from maybe a 3-4 year spell in the early 80's.

 

35-40 years of consistently producing top quality footballers is a result of some systemic phenomena. That's not an outlier, a purple patch or punching above your weight. 40 years - that was their level. This isn't a regress to a mean or where they should be. They've fallen off and unless they start to produce players again soon, we might be seeing a historic shift.

 

What your saying might apply to Croatia, Greece, Uruguay or Belgium. For periods they have punched above their weight and have gone long periods of time being pretty poor (maybe Croatia have always been pretty handy actually).

[ponsaelius]

You're arguing for the sake of it now, and listing off excellent players that have played for the Netherlands doesn't change the overarching point.

 

The Netherlands are not Belgium, Croatia or the Czech Republic. They are however also not Germany or Spain. In truth they are probably somewhere in between in terms of quality and depth of player production. They have simply missed far too many World Cup tournaments to be classed as an elite country, even post-1974. That is no slight on them, and it reflects their position as a medium-sized nation that has had excellent generations and put in some brilliant tournaments.

[The College Dropout]

Since 1974

 

The Netherlands have been to:

 

3 WC final

3 WC semi

3 Euro semi

Won Euro 88

 

Thats 10 semi-final appearances in 30 years. But not a powerhouse. That's certainly more SF appearances than Spain. More than any European nation outside of Germany and Italy I would guess.

[Disco]

Way to enforce you missing the point Pardsfan.

 

Smaller populace’s can’t maintain consistency in their national football abilities.

[ponsaelius]

Since 1974

 

The Netherlands have been to:

 

3 WC final

3 WC semi

3 Euro semi

Won Euro 88

 

Thats 10 semi-final appearances in 30 years. But not a powerhouse. That's certainly more SF appearances than Spain. More than any European nation outside of Germany and Italy I would guess.

 

They've also missed 6 tournaments in that time, and in the previous years their record was barren. They are a country that has produced great players and great teams but in respect to their overall history and the size of the country it is always likely to be more sporadic than similar nations with larger raw resources (Germany).

 

Arguing that 30 years of good (but inconsistent) performances and players proves this is the Netherlands' natural mean is flimsy at best. It's like saying Hungary having a great team between 1930 and 1966 is their mean and everything else since is gross underperformance.

 

Every European nation outside of the very sizeable ones is liable to weak generations and the lack of depth is always more exaggerated when it happens because of this fact.

[ponsaelius]

Way to enforce you missing the point Pardsfan.

 

Smaller populace’s can’t maintain consistency in their national football abilities.

 

This is clearly and exactly it. In reality I shouldn't have made the comparison to Belgium and Czechia because obviously he's gone and took it as a direct comparison rather than a relative one.

[Twinport53]

Love a good old TCD lecture. With the inclusion of random stats, teams or players to back up his pointless patter.

[The College Dropout]

You're talking bollocks. Since the1970's there are only 2 more European nations that have been so consistently competitive. Their competitiveness is not natural, it has been systemic. We all know the philosophies and system that has helped foster this production line of talent. They have a small population but the system they created meant they were still able to consistently produce quality players.

 

They have now missed 2 tournaments in a row because they are plain old bobbins. That hasn't happened since the 80's. If this continues for another 4 years, it will have been the system that has stopped working - not some fluctuation in quality due to a low populace.

 

 

And saying the Netherlands have not been a footballing powerhouse is up there with the most rubbish i've ever read on this forum.

[Disco]

Way to enforce you missing the point Pardsfan.

 

Smaller populace’s can’t maintain consistency in their national football abilities.

 

This is clearly and exactly it. In reality I shouldn't have made the comparison to Belgium and Czechia because obviously he's gone and took it as a direct comparison rather than a relative one.

 

Was a fair comparison although there’s no like for like as per any comparison in football. Obviously there are outliers and other factors such as economies but generally aye if you’re well populated country that isn’t a basket case and has an established football culture chances are you’ll be decent more times most of time the time and work that down through countries with lesser populations and obviously the peaks and troughs are accentuated.

 

It’s just sad from a nostalgia POV that Netherlands have had this huge dip now when international football is so weak comparatively to past generations.

 

Although as someone who is a CL fanboy its little suprise he is shocked by change and can’t understand it.

[ponsaelius]

Since the inception of the international game they are not a consistent qualifier at the same level as Germany, Italy, France, Spain, and England. This is an indisputed fact based on the number of World Cup tournaments they have missed that I have already listed for you. They are also a nation that is roughly 1/4 the size of those countries, which goes a long way to explaining the fact that they are not as consistent a nation historically as the others.

 

They had a system that produced players that allowed them to punch above their weight for 30 years, and now they have regressed to a lower level akin to pre-1974. This is not too dissimilar to Hungary who were a footballing powerhouse in the early part of the century but reduced to much weaker level.

 

Ignoring the relevance of population in terms of Central/Western Europe where interest in football and infrastructure is broadly at a similar level makes you an idiot and the one who is talking bollocks.

[Nobody]

Holland are like England as it stands; a footballing nation not to be taken seriously. They were appalling last night and looking at their pool of players to choose from there is nothing to brag about. Dutch are living off old greats at this stage.

The Dutch are in a much bigger mess than England like. While we got knocked out of the euros by Iceland, Holland failed to qualify for a tournament where everyone was there.

They failed to even get to the play offs in this qualification as well.

[xLiaaamx]

I mean, they aren't great right now, but I still look at them and think with some of the shite that makes it to the Euro's/Worlds they should still have a chance

[mrmojorisin75]

I had one eye on that game the other day, first England game I've seen for ages. What strikes me is we've got a youthful team full of athletes with varying degrees of technical ability playing an attacking premier league style game, or at least they did the other night. They'll trample over average opposition but will come unstuck against teams with superior technical/tactical ability every time imo.

[Incognito]

The Dutch had almost a decade of being shite after losing to Argentina in 78. They seem to produce great times in cycles but cycles that take longer than most transitional periods.

 

That 88 side is in the upper echelons of International sides I've seen yet, as Sewelly said, there were players in that side that wouldn't get anywhere near the England side they beat easily. Van Tiggelen, Van Aerle even had Hans van Breukelen in goal ffs.

 

 

[54]

[SEMTEX]

?s=19 indeed

[joeyt]

Buzzing for the Italian national anthem

[hakka]

?s=19 indeed

 

what is that, seeing it more and more on the forum.

[54]

Lee Dixon and Wright are be right twats towards Bilic right now.

[Big Geordie]

Locals are well supporting London United, tonight. :: Wembley barely half full?

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Our national anthem following theirs Terrible.

 

Love their anthem like. And Buffon.