"You're Just a Town Full of Pakis!"

[BlueStar]

Is cunt offensive?  Who decides?  If I say cunt to someone's five year old without knowing it's offensive, is it wrong?  How can you make a sweeping judgement about it?  Why is it offensive?  Just because of what people think?  Is 'damn' offensive?  Why not?  it used to be, didn't it?  How come it isn't as offensive any more?  Is it because of what people think?

 

The meaning of words is completely governed by what people think, and if you're going to argue about sematics then that's what it's going to come down to.  What people think.  And in this case, the people using it know it's a racial slur anyway because that's why they're using it so I'm not sure why the thread has gone in this direction anyway.  Black isn't a racist term but if someone says "What do you think of london" and someone replies "It's full of blacks" then you sound pretty racist without using a 'racist word' at all.

[Kitman]

Yes your a whinge if you do nowt about it, grow some balls and tackle the problem, if not (unfortunately) expect to hear it again and again.

Don't be so bloody daft.

How the hell can the lad tackle a problem like this BY HIMSELF ?

He's done the right thing in bringing it up.

I dont agree with him 100% but I'm bang on behind him in bringing it up.

Censuring those concerned, yes. But not banning.

Would the lad complaining for instance make a stand against someone gloating about 7/7 at his mosque ?

I doubt it.

Yet they are the ones RESPONSIBLE for people doing the "town full of pakis" that caused him so much anger.

What goes around comes around.

 

 

Good lad. 100% behind you doing this. Don't care if they were the greatest soopa fans tbh, they deserve to removed from sporting venues for good

 

Here is another example of overreaction making the problem greater.

This is a "thought police" mentality - You can only say things we allow you to say.

Ever heard of freedom of speech ?

It used to be popular before the PC brigade started their subservience to fanatics.

This kind of tugging forelocks revolts me. :wullie:

 

I'm sorry but that's a pompous load of pish.  The question was 'Is it racist'?  The answer is 'Yes' for the reason I outlined.  I'm not taking up cudgels on anyone's behalf, I'm answering the question.

Bullshit.

Its the same problem - someone offended by chants/shouts from opposition.

You ARE taking up cudgels.

 

Nope it's not the same problem.  It's the difference between racism and banter. 

 

Why not be as offensive as you like?  Let people hang over the pitch and throw bananas, shouting "Nigger, Nigger" and when anyone gets offended you can go "What's wrong with them like, it's just like taunting the Smoggies"? 

 

But I'm not taking up cudgels....I can see you're in favour of free speech rather than being an apologist for thick as pig shit racists.  :winking:

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If I'm offended by 'Youre just a town full of Brits' your argument falls down. How do you know that i am or not? How do you make all these sweeping judgements about what is acceptable? How do you know if people are offended? In which case how do you make the moral judgement on new forms of racism? Run round and administer 'levels of offensive' questionnaires to everyone in the country?

 

Where was this consensus taken that people dont find it offensive? Can you send me a quote or a link that backs up your statement 'Its not'? Who said that? Brummie? ffs....

 

You cant win a moral debate by saying 'cos thats what people fink'.

 

You can use a racist word without knowing it. Is the act morally wrong? In your world yes, in my world no. You can also be politically correct in public but harbour deep rooted thoughts that are never expressed. In this case the contrary is true. Words arent the problem.

 

If Nigger is friendly in one situation and not in another then the word itself doesnt define being racist. I think we need to grow up over this debate as we miss the point if we just focus on the words, hence me forcing the 'Brit' thing. People who dont see that havent thought what it means to be racist, just that dogmatically they are right that it is wrong to use certain words. Thats not a debate tbh.

 

This is well beyond the original point, that it has no place in our club or in football.

 

I think we are entitled to make 'sweeping judgements' of the kind that certain words 'are considered offensive'. This isn't an unreasonable assumption, words have accepted meanings and connotations beyond the literal, and while they aren't concrete they can be known and discussed.

 

I think you're right that we shouldn't just focus on the words though. I have mentioned already in this thread that I consider the intention behind the statement/word/chant to be equally important. Sadly I think the intention here was all wrong.

[BlueStar]

There is actually precident in UK law that Paki is a racist term.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2993908.stm

 

Fan convicted over racist chant

 

A football fan who took part in racist chanting at a match has been convicted in a landmark court case.

Two High Court judges ruled the 21-year-old fan should have been convicted of a criminal offence when he came before magistrates.

 

In what is understood to be the first case of its kind to reach the High Court, the judges ruled Sean Ratcliffe, from Cross Heath, Newcastle-under-Lyme, Staffordshire, was guilty of chanting in "a racialist nature".

 

The chanting came under the 1991 Football (Offences) Act, they said.

 

Ratcliffe was in a crowd of fans of second division Port Vale who used a chant containing the word "Paki" at Oldham Athletic supporters during a league match at the Port Vale ground at Stoke-on-Trent in October last year.

Lord Justice Auld, sitting with Mr Justice Goldring, said it was clear the word "Paki" - short for Pakistani - was "a slang expression which is racially offensive".

 

They dismissed any suggestion it could be used affectionately in the manner of "Aussie" or "Brit".

 

The judge said: "It is odd and a shame that this is so in this country, but the unpleasant context in which it is so often used has left it with a derogatory or insulting, racialist connotation."

 

The ruling overturned a decision by Stoke-on-Trent Magistrates' Court district judge Graham Richards in January to acquit Ratcliffe on the basis the chant was "mere doggerel" and need not be classed as an offence.

 

The judges also took the unusual step of telling the magistrates' court to pay the estimated £1,000 costs of the appeal by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

 

After the hearing, Maureen Shea, head of trials for the Crown Prosecution Service in north Staffordshire, said: "It is clarification of the fact that 'Paki' is derogatory and racialist within the terms of this Act.

 

"If any football crowd is chanting, and the word Paki, or Pakis, is in the chant, it is going to contravene the act."

[brummie]

If I'm offended by 'Youre just a town full of Brits' your argument falls down. How do you know that i am or not? How do you make all these sweeping judgements about what is acceptable? How do you know if people are offended? In which case how do you make the moral judgement on new forms of racism? Run round and administer 'levels of offensive' questionnaires to everyone in the country?

 

All of this is entirely irrelevant to the point - are you suggesting that "paki" isn't viewed as an offensive racist word?

 

And whether "brits" offends you or not is irrelevant to the point here - if you *do* find Brits offensive, how does that make "paki" any less offensive? Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

Where was this consensus taken that people dont find it offensive? Can you send me a quote or a link that backs up your statement 'Its not'? Who said that? Brummie? ffs....

 

You cant win a moral debate by saying 'cos thats what people fink'.

 

You can't win a moral debate by saying "cos that's what people think"? I've no experience of rape,  but I know that is morally wrong, and that is what most people "think", too.

 

You can use a racist word without knowing it. Is the act morally wrong? In your world yes, in my world no. You can also be politically correct in public but harbour deep rooted thoughts that are never expressed. In this case the contrary is true. Words arent the problem.

 

If Nigger is friendly in one situation and not in another then the word itself doesnt define being racist. I think we need to grow up over this debate as we miss the point if we just focus on the words, hence me forcing the 'Brit' thing. People who dont see that havent thought what it means to be racist, just that dogmatically they are right that it is wrong to use certain words. Thats not a debate tbh.

 

Where's the debate over whether the word "paki" is acceptable in modern British society? I'd have thought this was pretty much self evident.

 

This is well beyond the original point, that it has no place in our club or in football.

 

Agreed

[Guest GeordieDirk]

I didn't hear it being sung at the match but I did seem to be on the BNP carriage on the train on the way home!

I was on that train. It satarted as some hoolies singing anti mackem/Scouse/Cockney chants, then BNP chants, then "Enoch's right, keep it white" came out. I felt really bad as there were a couple of Asian lads just down the carriage, I was going to go down and apologise on behalf of the Geordie nation.

[Guest Deep456]

I didn't hear it being sung at the match but I did seem to be on the BNP carriage on the train on the way home!

I was on that train. It satarted as some hoolies singing anti mackem/Scouse/Cockney chants, then BNP chants, then "Enoch's right, keep it white" came out. I felt really bad as there were a couple of Asian lads just down the carriage, I was going to go down and apologise on behalf of the Geordie nation.

 

Im Asian and if I heard as I have before I just get up and punch the guy in the face it makes me feel alot better.

[Parky]

Of course it is racist. People trying to argue otherwise are suspect.

[Guest TheDutchman]

Of course it is racist. People trying to argue otherwise are suspect.

 

Well I dont think on this forum people will argue otherwise. If they do: Ban them!

[Parky]

"Cruijff: "Actually I never make a mistake, because it takes a huge effort for me to make a mistake." Dutchy sig.

 

 

Love that.

[Guest TheDutchman]

"Cruijff: "Actually I never make a mistake, because it takes a huge effort for me to make a mistake." Dutchy sig.

 

 

Love that.

 

Thanks. Is just one of many funny sentences he said in his life. The way he says things... Its very funny and clever at the same time!

[Guest Li3nZ]

For fucks sake, it's obvious. They're not racist at all. Any right thinking person, who can think for themselves and unswayed by the left wing propoganda churned out by the BBC can see that singing a town full of "Pakistani's" just has too many syllables to work properly!

 

I'm sure most of them actually have very close Paki friends. : )

[Allmo]

I'm divided on this.

 

The word 'paki' isn't used in a racist context a lot of the time. Someone saying, 'i'm going to the pakis', isn't meant to be racist, or used with racist intent. It's how you use the word, not just the term.

[UV]

I'm divided on this.

 

The word 'paki' isn't used in a racist context a lot of the time. Someone saying, 'i'm going to the pakis', isn't meant to be racist, or used with racist intent. It's how you use the word, not just the term.

 

Well you've convinced me. They weren't being racist at all, they were merely complementing the Blackburn fans on living in a multi-cultural environment.

[Crack Head]

For those of you who think it's only the word 'just' that is offensive in 'you're just a town full of pakis', try this simple exercise: get on a plane to New York and take a cab to the Bronx. Once there, stand in a group and shout 'this is a town full of niggers, town full of niggers'. When any locals come to complain, tell them you didn't say that "this is a town just full of niggers, but we were stating that this is a town full of niggers, which, as I'm sure you'll agree, is a fact." See if they see it your way. Try 'spics' instead of 'niggers' if you prefer.

 

It's fairly simple:

if you're not asian, don't call asians 'pakis', if you're not black, don't call blacks 'niggers' etc. etc. If you're white and live in Britain (I'm sure this applies to others as well), don't complain about these two points. If you don't understand why these two words are inflammatory in the wrong hands (and even in the hands of those who mean no offence), just accept that they are. In England, 'paki' and 'nigger' are not the same as 'brit'. Don't even bother with the etymology or technicality of it all.

 

I hesitate to go into the difference between 'brit' and 'paki', but it may have something to do with context and history. For instance, in my town we didn't suffer from 'brit bashing' but 'paki bashing', and, whilst it happens much, much less now (and, I accept, the inverse occasionally happens now), don't expect it not to have left a bitter aftertaste, and don't think it doesn't remind asians/blacks of the NF anymore. Brits weren't treated like scum because of their appearance, asians and blacks frequently were.

 

No one should kid themselves that the chant 'town full of pakis' is not racist, but, at the same time, no one should kid themselves that it offends us (I speak as an asian) - we're not that sad.

[Guest Li3nZ]

For those of you who think it's only the word 'just' that is offensive in 'you're just a town full of pakis', try this simple exercise: get on a plane to New York and take a cab to the Bronx. Once there, stand in a bla bla bla bla zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

 

Zzzzz *snore*

 

You go on a bit!

[Guest Phil K]

I'm divided on this.

 

The word 'paki' isn't used in a racist context a lot of the time. Someone saying, 'i'm going to the pakis', isn't meant to be racist, or used with racist intent. It's how you use the word, not just the term.

 

Well you've convinced me. They weren't being racist at all, they were merely complementing the Blackburn fans on living in a multi-cultural environment.

Yeah sure - and shouting "Paki" is worse than marching through London demanding ALL Danes to be beheaded, and praising the 7/7 bombers etc etc etc. It appeared the police thought so too - they arrested ONLY people shouting abuse at the bigots. Clearly a similar mind set to some on here..... :roll:

 

I didn't hear it being sung at the match but I did seem to be on the BNP carriage on the train on the way home!

I was on that train. It satarted as some hoolies singing anti mackem/Scouse/Cockney chants, then BNP chants, then "Enoch's right, keep it white" came out. I felt really bad as there were a couple of Asian lads just down the carriage, I was going to go down and apologise on behalf of the Geordie nation.

 

Im Asian and if I heard as I have before I just get up and punch the guy in the face it makes me feel alot better.

bluelaugh.gif

Thats good.

Still - I suppose with some of those on here, that action is "right on", but if reversed is "racist" - hypocrisy comes easier to some than others.....

 

For those of you who think it's only the word 'just' that is offensive in 'you're just a town full of pakis', try this simple exercise: get on a plane to New York and take a cab to the Bronx. Once there, stand in a bla bla bla bla zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

 

Zzzzz *snore*

 

You go on a bit!

Wish YOU didn't at all.

He has a point - so do you.

But yours is your head.

[Guest cybermansrevenge]

This whole thread seems to have gone way over the top, watching the youtube clip it doesn't sound like more than 10 people singing (none of which I could see on the pictures).

This doesn't change the fact that it's unacceptable (in my opion of course), any arguement revolving around Danes, fatwa's,etc  is spurious since I've not noticed any suicide bombers wearing black and white scarfs and we can only keep our OWN house in order.

To continue this discussion is playing into the hands of the racists giving them the oxygen of publicity (even if that's not neccesarily the aims of the people singing as some have suggested) and mackem's, etc who would love to say NUFC is a racist club/supporters.

Of course in a crowd of thousands there's bound to be racists, I'd guess there will be some wife beater's, sex offenders, etc but if anything we've have made huge advances as a club. I for one wouldn't like to see the bad old days of monkey noises, bananas, NF selling their paper at the foot of the Gallowgate and NUFC toping the Bulldog league. Now when you go to a game there's black and asian faces that certainly were a lot rarer in the eighties.

What should we do? Well I'm not advocating direct action but if you hear a chant like this why not start another chant, perhaps something to do with football, etc since everyone seems to be in agreement that it's not exactly a fantastic chant.

[Guest Li3nZ]

Phil K = Geek.

[Guest Gemmill]

Canny obvious it's a racist chant like.  Unfortunately not only do we have dickheads that chant it, but dickheads that defend it and try and claim it's just a social observation. 

[UV]

I'm divided on this.

 

The word 'paki' isn't used in a racist context a lot of the time. Someone saying, 'i'm going to the pakis', isn't meant to be racist, or used with racist intent. It's how you use the word, not just the term.

 

Well you've convinced me. They weren't being racist at all, they were merely complementing the Blackburn fans on living in a multi-cultural environment.

Yeah sure - and shouting "Paki" is worse than marching through London demanding ALL Danes to be beheaded, and praising the 7/7 bombers etc etc etc. It appeared the police thought so too - they arrested ONLY people shouting abuse at the bigots. Clearly a similar mind set to some on here..... :roll:

 

So who in the crowd at that game - which is the only situation we are discussing - should we really be having a go at if we weren't all so PC? :roll::roll::roll:

 

By your logic we shouldn't arrest burglars because armed robbery is more serious. I guess you also think we shouldn't criticise the board because there are worse run clubs out there?

[brummie]

Yeah sure - and shouting "Paki" is worse than marching through London demanding ALL Danes to be beheaded, and praising the 7/7 bombers etc etc etc. It appeared the police thought so too - they arrested ONLY people shouting abuse at the bigots. Clearly a similar mind set to some on here..... :roll:

 

I can only start to imagine how simple you'd need to be to automatically link that 7/7 demo with the vast, vast majority of British Asians, many of whom are actually Hindu and Sikh anyway, not forgetting the vast majority of law abiding British muslims who have absolutely nothing to do with islamic fundamentalism.

 

To then make some sort of connection suggesting that that is in anyway connected to chanting "you're just a town full of pakis" suggests that you are possibly a bit of a numpty.

 

I bet you're up in arms when the foreign press labels all followers of the England national team as hooligans because a few pissed up idiots go round causing trouble at big tournaments, though, aren't you?

[Guest Gemmill]

Yeah sure - and shouting "Paki" is worse than marching through London demanding ALL Danes to be beheaded, and praising the 7/7 bombers etc etc etc. It appeared the police thought so too - they arrested ONLY people shouting abuse at the bigots. Clearly a similar mind set to some on here..... :roll:

 

I can only start to imagine how simple you'd need to be to automatically link that 7/7 demo with the vast, vast majority of British Asians, many of whom are actually Hindu and Sikh anyway, not forgetting the vast majority of law abiding British muslims who have absolutely nothing to do with islamic fundamentalism.

 

To then make some sort of connection suggesting that that is in anyway connected to chanting "you're just a town full of pakis" suggests that you are possibly a bit of a numpty.

 

I bet you're up in arms when the foreign press labels all followers of the England national team as hooligans because a few pissed up idiots go round causing trouble at big tournaments, though, aren't you?

 

Mate, I've read Phil's posts on here for years and I'm not joking when I tell you that I sometimes wonder if he's posting from a fucking insane asylum.  And not as an employee either.

[Guest Li3nZ]

I think we should look at the broader point at hand here; What is more important? Tradition or PC values?

 

Racism in football goes back decades. Core support has been built at clubs based on traditional racist and hooligan values. Should we simply abolish these strong foundations, foundations that have brought white racists together the world over in football in favour of a twiney PC minority no one cares about?

 

These minorities come over here, take our jobs, rape our women, kill our swans and now they want to drown out our traditions too. You decide what's right !

[Guest Gemmill]

I think we should look at the broader point at hand here; What is more important? Tradition or PC values?

 

Racism in football goes back decades. Core support has been built at clubs based on traditional racist and hooligan values. Should we simply abolish these strong foundations, foundations that have brought white racists together the world over in football in favour of a twiney PC minority no one cares about?

 

These minorities come over here, take our jobs, rape our women, kill our swans and now they want to drown out our traditions too. You decide what's right !

 

  If you'd left the last paragraph out you might have got a few bites, but it was too obvious I reckon.