Video Assistant Referees (VAR)

[Greg]

Basic statistics need to be taught more and at an earlier age in high school. Thomas is right, and F 1-0 F is wrong.

 

Again, read what I put properly and you’ll see thomas and I agree on the stat I was discussing.

 

We’re discussing and disagree on the interpretation of the data though.

 

Fair enough, but I think your overall tone was unnecessarily aggressive when discussing a tech that's been used and nearly perfected across other sports. "VAR IS CRAP!" is an unnecessarily general statement that's nowhere near true.

 

It can be perfected in those sports, because they are suitable for it. Football isn’t.

 

It is. You just need a designated VAR ref that communicates with the on-pitch ref when called upon rather than the on-pitch ref taking ages looking at the videos. That's the main issue. If you had a designated VAR ref constantly looking at the replays it'd take seconds to solve something.

 

 

 

This is what we've had in the trail in England and it has taken a lot longer than seconds.

 

The on-pitch ref always

 

No watches the replays in the matches I've seen.

 

Just not been the case here.

[DJ_NUFC]

This argument doesn't hold water for me because the top flight leagues are already different from thousands of other leagues.

 

How? Light-up subs boards?

 

Erm, the sheer amount of fucking money involved in every thing from having sports psychologists, data analysts and sprawling scouting systems that encapsulate the globe, things your pub team don't have access to. Television rights, global audiences, etc. When billions are at stake, and decisions impact a team's survival or relegation (i.e. potentially monetary survival in the long term) based on some numpty's wrong call at the ultimate moment, why anyone would oppose a more level playing field between the rich and poor teams *within* the top leagues is beyond me. And I feel like the anti-VAR people are amplifying the negatives without even giving an inch to the potential of positives that VAR holds, if and when done right. But to not even give it a chance due to some *ideological* stance is like holding onto this glorious present and past whilst ignoring the inherent issues in absolutely shambolic refereeing decisions that has led to people calling for VAR in the first place.

[Dave]

None of those things are the rules.

 

Oh, and promotion up through the football pyramid is the single biggest hope a club can have of reaching those financial benefits on merit. But they wouldn't have access to the accuracy [sic] of VAR in crucial run-in or playoff matches because they're not already in the top flight, that's really fair.

[Greg]

Well it is fair because the other teams they are competing with for promotion don’t have access to it either.

 

Do you also disagree with the use of 4th officials given they aren’t used in every league?

 

 

 

 

[Nobody]

Aye, I'm dead against VAR, but saying it's bad because it's not the same throughout football is a really weak argument IMO.

The fact that it's shite, unnecessary, takes too long, needlessly disrupts the flow of the game and, worst of all, from what I've seen it seems to favour attackers going to ground easily just because there has been "contact" are more than enough arguments for it to be scrapped ASAP.

[Dave]

Well it is fair because the other teams they are competing with for promotion don’t have access to it either.

 

Do you also disagree with the use of 4th officials given they aren’t used in every league?

 

What rules are actually different due to the presence of a 4th official though? It's the same as those numpties behind the goal, they barely even do anything.

 

I'm not saying this is my only issue with VAR btw, obviously. It's just a pretty fundamental one that people who only care about the top flight seem to dismiss too easily IMO. Football is massively popular because of how inclusive it is at all levels.

[Greg]

Well it is fair because the other teams they are competing with for promotion don’t have access to it either.

 

Do you also disagree with the use of 4th officials given they aren’t used in every league?

 

What rules are actually different due to the presence of a 4th official though? It's the same as those numpties behind the goal, they barely even do anything.

 

I'm not saying this is my only issue with VAR btw, obviously. It's just a pretty fundamental one that people who only care about the top flight seem to dismiss too easily IMO. Football is massively popular because of how inclusive it is at all levels.

 

What rules are different with a VAR? The VAR is still making the decision / advising on the 'game changing incident' against the same set of rules / laws?

[Dave]

They get to change a decision.

[Dave]

And existing rules become essentially redundant. Why bother raising your flag for a marginal offside? It'll be picked up by VAR if it was offside*, and it's surely better to let play continue than interrupt it. Because you can't go back.

 

*Well, if they can make their minds up on it anyway (teehee).

 

Anyway I've said all this before. I just disagree with it in every way.

[sixx]

For me, one of the biggest appeals of football is its universality. It's pretty much the only sport, just one of the generally few things, that the world can gather over and partake in on pretty much equal premises. Be it in Kinshasa, Singapore, Buenos Aires or Newcastle you can be rest assured that the game is played the same way with the same simple foundations available to pretty much everyone; pitch, ball, two goals. I'm probably over-sentimental but for me, things like VAR just feed the divide for pretty much the only thing the world can agree on. It's just so unnecessary, technical and bland. Feels like we have become so elitist, petulant and presumptuous after a couple of decades being spoiled by outrageously high-quality football and bonkers amount of money that now we demand to know and get everything, all the time. Don't even get me started on how it interrupts the flow of the game.

[Happinesstan]

Aye, I'm dead against VAR, but saying it's bad because it's not the same throughout football is a really weak argument IMO.

The fact that it's shite, unnecessary, takes too long, needlessly disrupts the flow of the game and, worst of all, from what I've seen it seems to favour attackers going to ground easily just because there has been "contact" are more than enough arguments for it to be scrapped ASAP.

 

Good point. And if I'm correct that VAR is nothing more than an attempt at more advertising space, then sponsors will be paying their players per the number of advert opportunities they create.

[Hanshithispantz]

And existing rules become essentially redundant. Why bother raising your flag for a marginal offside? It'll be picked up by VAR if it was offside*, and it's surely better to let play continue than interrupt it. Because you can't go back.

 

*Well, if they can make their minds up on it anyway (teehee).

 

Anyway I've said all this before. I just disagree with it in every way.

Aye. VAR completely changes the game like. It has to otherwise it would be redundant. I disagree it’s unfair on lower league teams though, they should be thankful their game isn’t being pissed about with

 

I’m notagainst using technology for certain things like. Goal line stuff is fine imo, off the ball stuff like assault/spitting I would like delt with during the game. Offsides ‘n that though? Fuck off man.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Hans responds to rumours of being a luddite.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I still believe that VAR could theoretically work without it having any impact on waiting for decisions and any impact on the entertainment of the match. My point about having another official with exactly the same powers as an assistant referee or fourth official, but watching a TV is still the simple, cost effective, minimum impact answer imo. In this scenario there's no referring to the official whatsoever, Referees referee as normal, the official only speaks to the referee if there's a clear and obvious mistake in the decision made in exactly the same way that the assistant referees or fourth official would if there was something they noticed that the referee hadn't.

 

I still believe that they should keep trying and keep experimenting because if they can get it right then even those against it will have no complaints - no one's going to reminisce about blatantly incorrect decisions if it also means that the game's flow is left untainted, but I'm not sure if they'll ever get to that point, mainly because even when it came in this season with (imo) very clear instructions about when it should and shouldn't be used, humans are stupid and that wasn't how it panned out at all - Refs, the VAR panels, and pundits all muddied the waters. Everything became 'clear and obvious' and the whole thing was a complete joke. Refs were asking for reviews when they shouldn't, the VAR panel were sticking their oar in when they shouldn't, and the description of when VAR should be used was altered, imo, to save face with the incorrect usage of it, the reliance upon it by refs, and the even more ludicrous decisions that came out of it.

 

The whole exercise was such a spectacular failure that it almost seemed like it was by design and that they'd made it an advert for never ever asking for it to be used in football ever again. In that respect it was a massive success.

[mrmojorisin75]

by chance i've not happened to see a match where this has been used and haven't bothered to pay attention to it at all as a result, is it a total disaster then?  anything to read that outlines the issues/status?

[DJ_NUFC]

The whole purist perspective is funny because the same purists seem to have forgotten or not paid attention to the plethora of changes to actual laws and rules of the game from country to country, from, yes, Kinshasa to Germany, even differing from competition to competition. Golden Goal rule, constant tinkering with the official off-side rule, the 6-second rule, etc. I wasn't aware all these had such a massive impact on me enjoying a pub league when these rules were being fucked about with from country to country, league to league.

[DJ_NUFC]

LOL:

 

http://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/who-we-are/the-laws/2001-2006.html

 

And that's just like... 6 years.

[Figures 1-0 Football]

But none of those very minor changes mean I have to sit in the stadium for 5 minutes watching the referee look at a TV screen for an unknown reason.

[DJ_NUFC]

But none of those very minor changes mean I have to sit in the stadium for 5 minutes watching the referee look at a TV screen for an unknown reason.

 

I agree, but the golden goal was a big change, which was scrapped. As were some of the other minor changes which added time to a game, like needing to have a player stretchered off in a head collision, etc., (which I'm for, of course). What I'm saying is, football, and all sports, are literally games which are always evolving with time and circumstance.

 

As much as I hate Star Wars, I'm gonna quote from it: "Do not fight the winds of change, Anakin..."

[Figures 1-0 Football]

But none of those very minor changes mean I have to sit in the stadium for 5 minutes watching the referee look at a TV screen for an unknown reason.

 

I agree, but the golden goal was a big change, which was scrapped. As were some of the other minor changes which added time to a game, like needing to have a player stretchered off in a head collision, etc., (which I'm for, of course). What I'm saying is, football, and all sports, are literally games which are always evolving with time and circumstance.

 

As much as I hate Star Wars, I'm gonna quote from it: "Do not fight the winds of change, Anakin..."

 

None of those changes listed have anywhere near the level of impact or shittery as VAR.

 

As I’ve said numerous times, the only way VAR would ever be acceptable to me is if it was as instant and clear as goalline technology. It never will be.

[DJ_NUFC]

I know this has been mentioned before time and again, but it would really help to look at how VAR is implemented in other sports. The review system in cricket and tennis would actually be perfect for footie. Each team gets only 2 or 3 reviews per game, decided by the on-pitch captain from each side. So this would eliminate the fears of players going down too easy or waiting "5 minutes for an unknown reason." The reason will be clear, and it will only be used in the most egregious circumstances. And if you use up all your reviews on shitty decisions or cheating, well too bad, then you lose them. That's how it works in cricket / tennis. And then we go back to just going by the ref's decision. This way, the maximum number of stoppages can be 4, for example, over a 90 minute period. 

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Again, that system would never work because teams will just use their challenges tactically. Perfect way to slow the game down when you’re hanging onto a 1-0 lead away at Man Utd with minutes remaining, save all 3 challenges and keep breaking the play up by challenging any old decision.

[DJ_NUFC]

Again, that system would never work because teams will just use their challenges tactically. Perfect way to slow the game down when you’re hanging onto a 1-0 lead away at Man Utd with minutes remaining, save all 3 challenges and keep breaking the play up by challenging any old decision.

 

You mean like how Allardyce & Mourinho teams have been doing for the last 10 years? Teams already slow down games tactically when 1-0 up away from home. It's actually unbearable already.

 

We can go back and forth here forever, but we can just agree to disagree on this topic

[Hanshithispantz]

But that would only work for certain decisions. We still have things like offsides that haven't been spotted. You cannot just have the captain stopping the game like he's at Wimbledon, pointing to the VAR umpire to have a look at the video. Find out it was onside and then resume play with a drop kick. That's something football really doesn't need.

 

Tennis and cricket are also stop start games without a clock.

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Again, that system would never work because teams will just use their challenges tactically. Perfect way to slow the game down when you’re hanging onto a 1-0 lead away at Man Utd with minutes remaining, save all 3 challenges and keep breaking the play up by challenging any old decision.

 

You mean like how Allardyce & Mourinho teams have been doing for the last 10 years? Teams already slow down games tactically when 1-0 up away from home. It's actually unbearable already.

 

We can go back and forth here forever, but we can just agree to disagree on this topic

 

Well no It’s nothing like that at all.

 

There’s a difference from playing defensively to making the entire game stop while we watch the referee watch a TV screen. If I wanted to do that, I’d watch Gogglebox.

 

See Hans’ points above too.

 

But aye, more than happy to agree to disagree on this one.