PIF and RB Sports & Media

[Jackie Broon]

1 minute ago, duo said:

What I don't get it why no movement on a new training ground - ours is way behind.  PSR has zero impact on preventing PIF to invest in a new state of the art ground.  That alone would have a huge impact on attracting the best players (Current / Future).

 

It could be that one of the options they are considering, or the direction they've decided to take, is something like the Etihad campus so there can't be movement on a new training facility until they've finalised what they're doing about the stadium.

[duo]

Have PIF ever come out and said plans are afoot for a new Training Ground? Or has this just become an expectation of fans?

[Jackie Broon]

4 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Agreed - and actions speak much louder than words.  So far, zilch.

 

We've spent over half a billion on transfers tbf - but that doesn't mean half a billlion has been invested.

 

Their total investment so far is £305m purchase price and £392m injected via share allocations since, so £697m invested. Although probably technically more than that via associated party sponsorships.

[LFEE]

4 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

Their total investment so far is £305m purchase price and £392m injected via share allocations since, so £697m invested. Although probably technically more than that via associated party sponsorships.

Think your sums are slightly out. You forgot the £1b to square up the piracy issue allowing them to buy the club 

[Jackie Broon]

4 minutes ago, LFEE said:

Think your sums are slightly out. You forgot the £1b to square up the piracy issue allowing them to buy the club 

 

Yeah, that small matter too. Doesn't really make much sense as an investment, even if there were someone actually willing to pay £1bn for us, which I seriously doubt given our PSR constraints. It just doesn't stack up that PIF see us as an investment for profit.

[duo]

5 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

. It just doesn't stack up that PIF see us as an investment for profit.

Of course they do - they bought us for £300mil - Chelsea got sold for over £4billion - PIF absolutely want some of that. 

[Jackie Broon]

16 minutes ago, duo said:

Of course they do - they bought us for £300mil - Chelsea got sold for over £4billion - PIF absolutely want some of that. 

 

Chelsea were sold for £2.5bn. We're a very different proposition to an established big 6 club within the constraints of PSR. We're not going to be worth billions without billions of investment, that's if they can find a way to get those billions in around PSR.

 

 

[Pata]

12 hours ago, andycap said:

I noticed rubein doesn't sit with eales and Mitchell at our games anymore. 

Wonder if he's still missing mehrdad. 

 

We could do with another civil war to discuss here.

[duo]

7 hours ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

Chelsea were sold for £2.5bn. We're a very different proposition to an established big 6 club within the constraints of PSR. We're not going to be worth billions without billions of investment, that's if they can find a way to get those billions in around PSR.

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2022/05/30/billionaire-todd-boehly-led-group-completes-54-billion-purchase-of-chelsea-fc/

 

We are a different proposition but it is what a club could be worth, with the right leadership/investment. PSR has just made it more difficult to achieve.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2024 by duo

[Keegans Export]

2 minutes ago, duo said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2022/05/30/billionaire-todd-boehly-led-group-completes-54-billion-purchase-of-chelsea-fc/

 

We are a different proposition but it is what a club could be worth, with the right leadership/investment. PSR has just made it more difficult to achieve.

 

 

 

Wasn't that £2.5b for the sale price then £2.5b (or so) in guaranteed investment? 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, duo said:

Have PIF ever come out and said plans are afoot for a new Training Ground? Or has this just become an expectation of fans?

In one of Staveley’s first interviews after the takeover she said they would be building a brand new state of the art facility to encompass all of the teams and that it would take around 3 years (Mehrdad said that bit and added about finding a location, getting approval etc)

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jack27 said:

In one of Staveley’s first interviews after the takeover she said they would be building a brand new state of the art facility to encompass all of the teams and that it would take around 3 years (Mehrdad said that bit and added about finding a location, getting approval etc)

This was from February 2022:

 

Quote

When Staveley was in Saudi with Howe and the team, Ghodoussi was on Tyneside modifying Newcastle’s training ground, “with carpets, new paint, signs, just so that when they came back there’d be a change. We’ll do what we can with what we have, we’ll look at refurbishment and extension so we can bring it up to standard and then at the same time we’ll look at a new training facility, something on a par with Leicester City or one of the big ones.

“We’re currently looking at sites. That will probably take three years, maybe a little bit more, because we have to do designs, planning, all of those things. We want to develop an all-encompassing facility that includes the academy, the women’s team, the first team, sports science, everything you’d see at one of the top six clubs. That’s what helps drive the football.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3149808/2022/02/26/amanda-staveley-and-mehrdad-ghodoussi-interview-we-would-love-eddie-howe-to-be-the-next-alex-ferguson/?source=user_shared_article

[r0cafella]

4 minutes ago, Jack27 said:

This was from February 2022:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3149808/2022/02/26/amanda-staveley-and-mehrdad-ghodoussi-interview-we-would-love-eddie-howe-to-be-the-next-alex-ferguson/?source=user_shared_article

#wait. 

[Jackie Broon]

4 hours ago, duo said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2022/05/30/billionaire-todd-boehly-led-group-completes-54-billion-purchase-of-chelsea-fc/

 

We are a different proposition but it is what a club could be worth, with the right leadership/investment. PSR has just made it more difficult to achieve.

 

 

 

 

The sale price was £2.5bn, the higher figure includes investment they committed to make.

 

PIF/RB have essentially spent 1.7bn on us already, plus whatever they have put in with associated party sponsorships.

 

We're just not going to get to big 6 levels of revenue and value on good leadership alone. They will have to funnel money into the club through associated party sponsorships and massive infrastructure investments, that will be expensive and not guaranteed to work.

 

We are an incredibly high risk / low reward as an investment, it just does not add up that they see us that way.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Jackie Broon

[500bhp]

1 hour ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

The sale price was £2.5bn, the higher figure includes investment they committed to make.

 

PIF/RB have essentially spent 1.7bn on us already, plus whatever they have put in with associated party sponsorships.

 

We're just not going to get to big 6 levels of revenue and value on good leadership alone. They will have to funnle money into the club through associated party sponsorships and massive infrastructure investments, that will be expensive and not guaranteed to work.

 

We are an incredibly high risk / low reward as an investment, it just does not add up that they see us that way.

 

 

 

£1.7bn? I'm not completely disagreeing as I haven't seen the detailed figures but off the top of my head, £305m purchase price, about £140m to clear the loan to MA, capital invested via new equity must be about £400m or so? Maybe it's more than £400m but to say it's £1,700m all in is a bit of a stretch. 

 

As I said I've not seen the accounts for a while so maybe it is more than I thought. 

[TheBrownBottle]

8 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

£1.7bn? I'm not completely disagreeing as I haven't seen the detailed figures but off the top of my head, £305m purchase price, about £140m to clear the loan to MA, capital invested via new equity must be about £400m or so? Maybe it's more than £400m but to say it's £1,700m all in is a bit of a stretch. 

 

As I said I've not seen the accounts for a while so maybe it is more than I thought. 

They didn’t pay the £140m loan - that was in the sale price.

 

The £1bn comes from paying Qatar for pirating BeIN.

 

Purchasing price for the club isn’t ‘investment’.  Unless Mike Ashley ‘invested’ £250m in NUFC through purchasing and loans - but I don’t remember that ever being stated?

 

Capital equity is the sole investment so far.  

[Jackie Broon]

3 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

£1.7bn? I'm not completely disagreeing as I haven't seen the detailed figures but off the top of my head, £305m purchase price, about £140m to clear the loan to MA, capital invested via new equity must be about £400m or so? Maybe it's more than £400m but to say it's £1,700m all in is a bit of a stretch. 

 

As I said I've not seen the accounts for a while so maybe it is more than I thought. 

 

That includes the £1bn that was paid to settle the BeoutQ dispute and allow the takeover to go through.

 

Discounting that my point still stands, any potential profit will be eaten up by the cost of bridging the gap to the big 6.

[500bhp]

10 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

They didn’t pay the £140m loan - that was in the sale price.

 

The £1bn comes from paying Qatar for pirating BeIN.

 

Purchasing price for the club isn’t ‘investment’.  Unless Mike Ashley ‘invested’ £250m in NUFC through purchasing and loans - but I don’t remember that ever being stated?

 

Capital equity is the sole investment so far.  

Did they not pay £305m to acquire the shares of the company, which includes all it's assets and liabilities? One of those liabilities was a £140m loan to MA which they could either choose to repay or keep on the BS, subject to any conditions in the sale and purchase agreement regarding repayment of the loan due to change in ownership. Same way MA had 90 days to repay the £55m securitisation loan on acquisition from Hall and Shepherd. 

 

Anyway it's old news now and not relevant going forward 😀

[Jackie Broon]

Case in point, Moshiri is selling Everton for £400m, after he put in £750m trying and failing to bridge the gap to the big 6. There is no profit in owning an ambitious club outside of the big 6.

[TheBrownBottle]

13 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

Case in point, Moshiri is selling Everton for £400m, after he put in £750m trying and failing to bridge the gap to the big 6. There is no profit in owning an ambitious club outside of the big 6.

Abramovich’s forced sale of Chelsea was for more than all the money he’d spent buying and investing.  If Man City was sold tomorrow, it would reap a serious profit.

 

Neither of those clubs were anything like what they are today before vastly wealthy owners poured money in.  Everton’s sugar daddy didn’t have anything like that wealth, and made some absolute howlers.

 

NUFC would turn a profit currently - excluding the £1bn that they paid to Qatar, which was also part of regional cold war denouement.  There is nothing to suggest that the ‘big six’ is a natural block - that six is a limit to the number of clubs that can enter.  It was the ‘big five’ when I was a kid - and that included Everton (Man City and Chelsea were nowhere).  Later there was a ‘big four’.

 

There absolutely is a profit available in taking Newcastle up in standing - and Newcastle’s ceiling is higher than Everton’s, ultimately (and they are a big club).  But there is nothing in any of PIF’s investments outside of KSA which suggests that they do vanity projects outside of the country.  Everything else is counting every penny - which is why the ‘process’ (every signing etc requiring Byzantine processes to get approval from PIF) is so slow.  

[TheBrownBottle]

32 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

Did they not pay £305m to acquire the shares of the company, which includes all it's assets and liabilities? One of those liabilities was a £140m loan to MA which they could either choose to repay or keep on the BS, subject to any conditions in the sale and purchase agreement regarding repayment of the loan due to change in ownership. Same way MA had 90 days to repay the £55m securitisation loan on acquisition from Hall and Shepherd. 

 

Anyway it's old news now and not relevant going forward 😀

Yes, the purchase price included yhe £140m loan - meaning they didn’t give Ashley £305m + £140m.  Ashley wasn’t aware of the 90 day payoff for the Barclays loan upon change of ownership.  

[Jackie Broon]

16 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Abramovich’s forced sale of Chelsea was for more than all the money he’d spent buying and investing.  If Man City was sold tomorrow, it would reap a serious profit.

 

Neither of those clubs were anything like what they are today before vastly wealthy owners poured money in.  Everton’s sugar daddy didn’t have anything like that wealth, and made some absolute howlers.

 

NUFC would turn a profit currently - excluding the £1bn that they paid to Qatar, which was also part of regional cold war denouement.  There is nothing to suggest that the ‘big six’ is a natural block - that six is a limit to the number of clubs that can enter.  It was the ‘big five’ when I was a kid - and that included Everton (Man City and Chelsea were nowhere).  Later there was a ‘big four’.

 

There absolutely is a profit available in taking Newcastle up in standing - and Newcastle’s ceiling is higher than Everton’s, ultimately (and they are a big club).  But there is nothing in any of PIF’s investments outside of KSA which suggests that they do vanity projects outside of the country.  Everything else is counting every penny - which is why the ‘process’ (every signing etc requiring Byzantine processes to get approval from PIF) is so slow.  

 

Current big 6 clubs are a different beast, they are very valuable because they are in a de facto monopoly position.

 

It is virtually impossible for any club outside of the big 6 to bridge the gap with the limitations of PSR, even with the backing of a state it's not clear we're going to be able to do that, and if we are it's probably going to take a decade and billions more in direct and indirect investment.

 

We would not turn a profit currently, we have been running at a loss of £70m per season and would not have got the Sela/Adidas deals etc. without the influence of PIF.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Jackie Broon

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

Current big 6 clubs are a different beast, they are very valuable because they are in a de facto monopoly position.

 

It is virtually impossible for any club outside of the big 6 to bridge the gap with the limitations of PSR, even with the backing of a state it's not clear we're going to be able to do that, and if we are it's probably going to take a decade and billions more in direct and indirect investment.

 

We would not turn a profit currently, we have been running at a loss of £70m per season and would not have got the Sela/Adidas deals etc. without the influence of PIF.

 

 

 

The club has been valued at £1bn.  The Sela deal wasn’t exactly a long way above market value; neither was the adidas deal. 
 

Football clubs values are also not linked to income in any real sense - yield isn’t a key factor in sale value.  Chelsea ran up consistent losses.

 

I also don’t think we’re likely to break into the top six in terms of income at this point, though this is because I see little evidence that what would be needed to give us a chance of doing so is going to happen.  We’re moving far too slow, and doing far too little.  It would not take multiple billions of direct investment without return to do so.  

[Jackie Broon]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said:

The club has been valued at £1bn.  The Sela deal wasn’t exactly a long way above market value; neither was the adidas deal. 
 

Football clubs values are also not linked to income in any real sense - yield isn’t a key factor in sale value.  Chelsea ran up consistent losses.

 

I also don’t think we’re likely to break into the top six in terms of income at this point, though this is because I see little evidence that what would be needed to give us a chance of doing so is going to happen.  We’re moving far too slow, and doing far too little.  It would not take multiple billions of direct investment without return to do so.  

 

The 1bn figure that has been widely reported was arrived at by Bloomberg multiplying the amount Staveley received for her shares from PIF, that was picked up and circulated around every media outlet as a valuation of the club. Forbes estimate our value at £595m https://www.forbes.com/lists/soccer-valuations/

[TRon]

15 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Newcastle are the perfect investment - we’ve already trebled in value.  Much higher risk to investment would have been buying one of the big clubs.

 

I don’t think this looks anything like a vanity project at the moment - so far this looks like an investment; there is a clear reluctance to throw real money around, and three years is a long time.  I’ll come back to them until the evidence changes - where are the sponsors?  Where is the training ground?  Where is the academy?  Where is the plans for a super stadium?  To date, we’ve seen a level of investment which pretty much any new owner of a PL club with potential would have made.  There’s nothing so far to suggest vanity purchase / sportswashing. 

 

 

That's because without a winning team, where's the vanity potential? We are specifically barred from investing in a squad which would drive us into the Champions League, that leaves us with the investment angle. Are training grounds or new stadiums an investment which are likely to see much return in the forseeable future? Even sponsorships would be much bigger and give more returns if we are a CL club and rising.